| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| breadfan |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 01:13:30
Hi Everyone.
Currently, I'm working on a campaign settled in Menzoberranzan, focused on Arach-Tinilith intrigues.
In Menzoberranzan Boxed Set, E.G. mentions the number of high priestesses among all Lolth clergy in each house, but there's no definition of that term.
So, what does it exactly mean?
Do all graduating Arach-Tinilith students get that title, or are there some special requirements?
Is there a certain level at which a Lolth cleric is considered as a high priestess? (In MBS all mentioned high priestesses have level 10th or higher).
I'm looking for information from original sources and novels.
|
| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 14:07:36
quote:
Originally posted by SonOfGith
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
They all do it as part of the initiation. Why would everyone just assume that they ALL become pregnant?
I don't read it this way, only a handful are "selected", this is an honor to them, it's not special if everyone participates. It's very drowlike to promote internal competition between soon to be high-priestesses to receive the honor. Also,if all of them participate there would be VERY few high pristesses, given the terrible odds of survival.
The ritual itself comes off as very routine in the canon. Now, pregnancy and giving birth are an entirely different manner.
There is no such evidence that the ritual itself isn't survivable. Uncomfortable? Yes. Difficult? I'm sure.
Remember the High Priestess is the one who must display her dominance in this ritual by summoning and controlling the glabrezu. So dying in the ritual would be defeating the purpose and doesn't make sense for a High Priestess to risk dying unless it's in the act of birthing a Draegloth. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 13:27:26
I would say all soon-to-be high priestess summon a glabrezu as part of their ritual. It is a statement of "I am strong enough in my faith to do this". Some of them then mate with the demon and some of them get pregnant (and most of those die at birth). There might be another forms of this ritual elsewhere but it seems traditional in Menzo. |
| SonOfGith |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 01:12:16
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
They all do it as part of the initiation. Why would everyone just assume that they ALL become pregnant?
I don't read it this way, only a handful are "selected", this is an honor to them, it's not special if everyone participates. It's very drowlike to promote internal competition between soon to be high-priestesses to receive the honor. Also,if all of them participate there would be VERY few high pristesses, given the terrible odds of survival. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 00:53:39
quote:
Originally posted by SonOfGith
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
So I can't quote individual sources but from ALL the sources here is what I've figured out:
1. ALL graduates from Arac-Tinilith are considered priestesses. They don't ALL hump the summoned glabrezu. They engage in orgies with the students from Melee-Magthere, however.
This is in the Menzoberranzan book from 2012.
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
2. High priestesses mate with glabrezu. That is clearly part of the initiation but not the ENTIRE initiation.
I don't know if this is correct, we know that's how Draegloth are created, doesn't mean every high priestess has one.
They all do it as part of the initiation. Why would everyone just assume that they ALL become pregnant?
Remember all the fertility rituals throughout history?
They are ALL trying to received a major blessing from Lolth (a draegloth) but very very few ever actually have one.
It's very clear from more than one source that this is a "special" ritual, if not a semi-regular one. Certainly nothing like Zin Carla.
It's also alluded to that many priestesses die in birthing the monsters.
And then there is the universal truth, why does anyone do anything? Simply because they can....
If they had any chance at all of having more draegoloth they would fanatically pursue such an avenue.
|
| SonOfGith |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 00:48:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I don't think that every high priestess has mated with a demon, especially given the number of high priestesses.
We know of exactly one draegloth in the upper families in Menzo but like 200 high priestesses. That is some pretty terrible odds.
I don't consider myself an expert in the subject, but I just started reading the War of the Spider Queen series (just finished book one), and there is one Draegloth only, in service of Triel Baenre (the matron of all of Menzoberranzan). So I agree with this assessment.
I checked a couple of additional gaming sources:
VGtM: says the ritual is a dangerous one and succeeds only rarely.
DotU (3.5e): matriarchs perform a ritual to call the demon for mating. The high pristess selected to participate is seen as receiver of a great honor, and usually dies. This ritual succeeds only rarely.
Maybe you don't consider DotU (3.5) an official source for Faerun. But it doesn't contradict what I've learnt so far in the novels, at least on this subject. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Nov 2016 : 23:06:04
I don't think that every high priestess has mated with a demon, especially given the number of high priestesses.
We know of exactly one draegloth in the upper families in Menzo but like 200 high priestesses. That is some pretty terrible odds. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 06 Nov 2016 : 11:11:16
Not every contact is "blessed" with mentioned progeny but I would agree that at least in Menzo it is a part of tradition to clearly indicate the needed level of power by summoning a glabrezu and possibly mate with it. I suppose Cards77 meant that it is not only requirement for a new High priestess to complete. There would be some political games in background of every succesful ceremony as high priestess are leaders in drow community... |
| SonOfGith |
Posted - 06 Nov 2016 : 04:58:49
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
So I can't quote individual sources but from ALL the sources here is what I've figured out:
1. ALL graduates from Arac-Tinilith are considered priestesses. They don't ALL hump the summoned glabrezu. They engage in orgies with the students from Melee-Magthere, however.
This is in the Menzoberranzan book from 2012.
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
2. High priestesses mate with glabrezu. That is clearly part of the initiation but not the ENTIRE initiation.
I don't know if this is correct, we know that's how Draegloth are created, doesn't mean every high priestess has one.
|
| Cards77 |
Posted - 31 Oct 2016 : 01:41:52
So I can't quote individual sources but from ALL the sources here is what I've figured out:
1. ALL graduates from Arac-Tinilith are considered priestesses. They don't ALL hump the summoned glabrezu. They engage in orgies with the students from Melee-Magthere, however.
2. High priestesses mate with glabrezu. That is clearly part of the initiation but not the ENTIRE initiation.
3. Several books have talked about priestesses being an understudy or servitor to a high priestess for a period of time. Sort of like an internship.
I envision it to be something like med school. They have to intern to a High Priestess, work on their own "project" say like spell research, crafting, etc. They must then go before the Mistresses of the school to be evaluated for the title of High Priestess.
It's also known that a high priestess leads the surface raids. I'm going to assume this could be part of the process as well.
|
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 29 Oct 2016 : 07:40:06
Remember that she is unique. She had a huge gift of power from two gods in a very short time. Because she became a traitor priestess, she also became a high priestess. In that order. She never really even graduated - she skipped that step.
As far as rankings - it could be possible that the top ranking students are the only ones that become high priestesses. Rank there also corresponds to Lloth's favor so being in the top few percent would mean both prestige and power. |
| breadfan |
Posted - 29 Oct 2016 : 00:42:00
Thank you All for the replies.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Graduating from the academy makes one a priestess, not a high priestess.
This one confuses me. In Monsters of Faerun (3.0), the Draegloth's description says: "Formed in the unholy union between a newly ordained drow high priestess and a powerful demon", and then: "In Menzoberranzan, the graduation of students from the Academy is marked by a ritual (...). The cornerstone of this ceremony of graduation is the conjuration of a glabrezu by a top-ranking student priestess".
So, I always thought, that all graduates become the high priestesses, and return to serve their houses, or stay in Arach-Tinilith as mistresses.
On the other hand, in Homeland glabrezu was summoned not by a student, but by mistresses.
I think I should remind myself the Shakti's ritual from Daughter of the drow. AFAIR at the beginning she was also a student in Arach-Tinilith.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 23:36:24
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I know when Shakti was made a High Priestess it was from a ritual and she got a snake whip. I can't remember which of Elaine's novels this was in, but I think it was the 1st or 2nd of the series. She also became a Traitor Priestess at the same time, so this is not a good model :/
It is in book 1, but the ritual isn't described, IIRC. It's only said that it essentially is something horrible and unspeakable, and it takes a while.
like allowing themselves to be plowed by a glabrezu. That has got to hurt.
From 3rd edition Monster Compendium - Monsters of Faerun
Draegloth entry
Formed in the unholy union between a newly ordained drow high priestess and a powerful demon, a draegloth is a half fiend terror that stalks the underdark. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 19:16:21
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I know when Shakti was made a High Priestess it was from a ritual and she got a snake whip. I can't remember which of Elaine's novels this was in, but I think it was the 1st or 2nd of the series. She also became a Traitor Priestess at the same time, so this is not a good model :/
It is in book 1, but the ritual isn't described, IIRC. It's only said that it essentially is something horrible and unspeakable, and it takes a while. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 18:42:00
As I mentioned, in the Menzo box set, there are 7th level High Priestesses, which would mean 4th level spells. The set was 2nd edition. 2nd edition still had 7 spell levels. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 13:33:41
Demihuman Deities says Lolth has some male priests, but none rise above 7th level... So for me, I'd say that a high priestess would be one that exceeded the level allowable to males. Thus, at 8th level, a priestess of Lolth would be considered a high priestess.
Or maybe make it 9th or 10th -- 9th to get fifth level spells, 10th because it's a good number.
That's my two coppers.  |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 10:16:59
In the old 1st Edition AD&D, character levels had a level title attached to it, and for clerics, the "name level" (highest "level title") was High Priest(ess), at 9th level.
There was a bit more development in Legends & Lore (also AD&D 1st edition), which posited that 1st and 2nd level priest spells (remember that under those rules, priests spells were divided in 7 spell levels, not 9) were granted on pure belief only; 3rd and 4th level spells by a minion of the patron deity, and 5th - 7th level spells by the deity. So a High Priest would be any priest who reaches the level where (s)he gets spells directly from their patron deity. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 06:24:37
Graduating from the academy makes one a priestess, not a high priestess. Not how in the house description there is a "Priestesses" and "High Priestesses" count. The lowest level high priestess are 7th level.. (you can find a couple of these in the Menzo box set). I think there is some ritual involved but cannot remember what that was or where I got the idea. I also think think is not dictated by level, but by the favor of Lloth - just like everything else.
I know when Shakti was made a High Priestess it was from a ritual and she got a snake whip. I can't remember which of Elaine's novels this was in, but I think it was the 1st or 2nd of the series. She also became a Traitor Priestess at the same time, so this is not a good model :/ |
