| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 12:55:23
Hello together,
my players have made it their objective to tear down the Masked Lord system of Waterdeep. It involves killing Laeral.
Let us assume they succeed (despite them being 6-8th level). What do you think will happen to Waterdeep? Do you think the guilds will start a civil war? Or do you think some groups like the Harpers or individuals like the Chosen will kill everyone who causes ruckus and things will quickly revert to what was before?
I'm asking for input here because I want to plan some characters' action around this possibility.
Thank you for your answer in advance
Edit: I've posted it in a later reply but my players are trying to create unrest through the Rumor rules and my players came already behind that at least one Masked Lord is the culprit of or deeply connected to crime.
So an added situation here would be if the characters are successful (which will be difficult) and the population doesn't want the Masked Lords anymore what do you think will happen as a general rule?
Thank you for reading through this lengthy post and I'm sorry for this much added information. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 18:30:32
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think they had a hard time adapting the chosen into the 3rd ed. structure. In 3rd edition it became important to focus on feats... but how do you adjudicate feats for a person who's hundreds of years old and has been active and adventuring working that whole time? In theory they would have hundreds and that just becomes too cumbersome. Either that or you'd end up with super characters.
I remember one feat that allowed wizard's to chain pretty much any spell over and over. Later in Ed's book the Lost Spell basically allowed the same thing but was the prized that lured archmages into the spellstorm. In short, that feat was way too powerful and led to super spell hurlers.
Anyhow, I hope they are creative. :)
There I can give you some good news. 5e gives you the option (with the DM's approval) to gain new feats outside of the restriction by class.
Our DMs were kind of negligent on that part, you managed to intimidate a dragon? have a skill focus (intimidate) feat or gain trianing or a few skill points for the Intimidation skill.
Thank you again for replying |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 18:10:03
I think they had a hard time adapting the chosen into the 3rd ed. structure. In 3rd edition it became important to focus on feats... but how do you adjudicate feats for a person who's hundreds of years old and has been active and adventuring working that whole time? In theory they would have hundreds and that just becomes too cumbersome. Either that or you'd end up with super characters.
I remember one feat that allowed wizard's to chain pretty much any spell over and over. Later in Ed's book the Lost Spell basically allowed the same thing but was the prized that lured archmages into the spellstorm. In short, that feat was way too powerful and led to super spell hurlers.
Anyhow, I hope they are creative. :) |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 17:01:07
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Instead of killing her, let her escape, and become a thorn in the PC's sides...
The PCs are currently working for her. The relationship is not hostile and in the case of them actually attacking her, escape is THE most reasonable and most dangerous outcome for the PCs. As I said before, I'm interested in how they want to deal with her as an enemy, if at all. |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 16:56:48
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I can't speak to 5th E rules at all as I've not looked at them, but seeing as Laeral has personally created both artifact level magical items (she is "one of the greatest human magical item crafters of all time," - putting her on par with the Netherese and Imaskari) and several 9th level spells - one of which is so kick ass Mystra only allows other Chosen the ability to cast it at all - I'd say it is safe to assume her capable of doing so.
I'm also not sure of how you came to the conclusion she's one of the less powerful sisters. She was a 25th/26th level mage former 9th level ranger back in 2nd edition. That means she has more levels total (34/35) than any of her sisters (indeed, there are few NPCs in any realms product accredited with more), and more levels as a spellcaster than any sister other than the Simbul. She also has access to the collection of magic of Blackstaff tower... i.e. one of the largest in the realms.
If you are seriously thinking about gaming her, then you need to remember the Powers of the Chosen. She is basically immune to mind magic/control except by artifact level magics and that of gods, blindness, deafness, disease, feeblemindedness, insanity, infection, infestation, poisoning, and rot. She regenerates, has access to weave healing, has permanent protection from fire, and is immune to several spells. She has silver fire use. BOOM. All this is before you consider her spell use. She should have a significant roster of defensive magic, contingencies, etc. I personally would give her a custom spell mantle along the lines of Alustriel's queenmantle, an elven mantle stone or thael'kiira (still love the name there :P ) because she is a close personal friend of the queen of Evermeet - or maybe even both. Then consider that she is not a rash person and is incredibly intelligent - couple this with divination magic and you have someone that is more than difficult to "trick" into an impossible situation - even if you think 6th-8th level characters are capable of creating an impossible situation.
I'm not saying it is 100 percent impossible to kill Laeral - just 99.9 percent - and that is if you are playing under the rules. If I was the DM, I might not even bother unless they came up with the most ingenious plan I'd ever heard. Having a long term foil for characters is good for a campaign. It might teach your players some wisdom - though that might be asking a bit much :D
Thank you for the reply,
again I have to apologize, I haven't realized we're talking about different timelines here.
The reason, I came to the "third from the bottom" statement is her 3e stat, there she is a 19th level Wizard with 4 Sorcerer and 7 Ranger levels. In other words, during 3e Szass Tam, Larloch, Telamont and even Gromph were better wizards than Laeral. That's where I got her being one of the less skilled Chosens (who had collectively weird builds, though). Also silverfire never really striked me as a very destructive power (I know in the novels it's an "I win" button), it dealt only 4d12 points of damage in 3e, though its real danger was more in the ability to negate Antimagic Field (grappling really helped).
I've made a template "Chosen of Mystra" based on the 3e version. I have to admit I'm surprised what te Chosens were immune to during 2e. In 5e though, Chosens' powers have weakened (and are implied continue to do so), as is the ability of gods intervene in mortal affairs.
Mostz of her former friends (among them her husband) are dead and most magic items she or her husband owned are probably already destroyed in the wake of the Spellplague or owned by other people who took them while she was hiding, added to this comes 5e's heavy limits on magic items.
I share your opinion that she should be 99.9% unbeatable. My ideal is a character of
no one realistically thinks possible to kill but who has some cracks in the armor that allow some theoretical thought on killing her. Wooly Rupert has pointed out that Chosen didn't need to sleep. After rereading the template, they can be put to sleep via magic. Such little cracks, I hope, make the NPC believable to leave the field to the PCs so she doesn't need to face the risks to die without appearing weak.
And at last, I'm the one who wants to see how they want to pull of what they have said. After all my players are currently working FOR her and have actually managed to form a relationship that is not hostile.
Thank you for reading this lengthy post. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 15:43:16
Instead of killing her, let her escape, and become a thorn in the PC's sides... |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 13:20:04
Ah, well, I'll have to read it some day - I myself linger in the 1300s :P |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 12:58:13
That's all true, but the Laeral of the 1490s is very, very different to the Laeral of old. Death Masks reveals how much power she's lost - and it's a lot. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 12:40:06
I can't speak to 5th E rules at all as I've not looked at them, but seeing as Laeral has personally created both artifact level magical items (she is "one of the greatest human magical item crafters of all time," - putting her on par with the Netherese and Imaskari) and several 9th level spells - one of which is so kick ass Mystra only allows other Chosen the ability to cast it at all - I'd say it is safe to assume her capable of doing so.
I'm also not sure of how you came to the conclusion she's one of the less powerful sisters. She was a 25th/26th level mage former 9th level ranger back in 2nd edition. That means she has more levels total (34/35) than any of her sisters (indeed, there are few NPCs in any realms product accredited with more), and more levels as a spellcaster than any sister other than the Simbul. She also has access to the collection of magic of Blackstaff tower... i.e. one of the largest in the realms.
If you are seriously thinking about gaming her, then you need to remember the Powers of the Chosen. She is basically immune to mind magic/control except by artifact level magics and that of gods, blindness, deafness, disease, feeblemindedness, insanity, infection, infestation, poisoning, and rot. She regenerates, has access to weave healing, has permanent protection from fire, and is immune to several spells. She has silver fire use. BOOM. All this is before you consider her spell use. She should have a significant roster of defensive magic, contingencies, etc. I personally would give her a custom spell mantle along the lines of Alustriel's queenmantle, an elven mantle stone or thael'kiira (still love the name there :P ) because she is a close personal friend of the queen of Evermeet - or maybe even both. Then consider that she is not a rash person and is incredibly intelligent - couple this with divination magic and you have someone that is more than difficult to "trick" into an impossible situation - even if you think 6th-8th level characters are capable of creating an impossible situation.
I'm not saying it is 100 percent impossible to kill Laeral - just 99.9 percent - and that is if you are playing under the rules. If I was the DM, I might not even bother unless they came up with the most ingenious plan I'd ever heard. Having a long term foil for characters is good for a campaign. It might teach your players some wisdom - though that might be asking a bit much :D |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 11:34:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The chosen are powerhouses. Plain and simple. Larloch - who I'd say is the most powerful villain of the realms (I know others disagree with that assessment - I read that scroll all the way through :P) is afraid of them all because he knows he can't beat 'em.
If Larloch can't see a way to take 'em out with a reasonable chance of success, how could your players :)
I'd say all you really have to decide here is whether they really piss her off or just amuse her.
First, this may sound irritating so I apologize in advance for it but we're playing a game under the confinement of rules. These rules have and still do allow the unbeatable under flavor to be killed under the rules, so I'm really not prepared to dismiss the chance of my players to kill Laeral.
Second, turning NPCs, especially on the good guys' side, into what amounts to a Mary Sue makes players ask the question "why don't we leave the problem to them?". This wasn't a problem during 4e but was a heavy one in 3e especially when you played in Cormanthor/Dalesland (homeground of Elminster and co.).
So I made Laeral's stats into Wizard(15 Ev)/Sorcerer(4 DrB)/Ranger(7 Hu) with a Chosen of Mystra template. Were using these rules (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/182988/Variant-Rule-Multiclassing).
As you probably know, Laeral's arcane skill was third from the bottom among the Chosen of Mystra (I excluded Qilue for not having any arcane skill). Because 5e only allows you to have 20 levels as a caster, it means that casters who exceed Laeral's skill like Elminster have access to 9th level spells while those on her level don't have it, otherwise the power level inflates too much.
I hope, having access to 8th level spells counts as godlike but makes putting herself into danger too risky which is why the PCs have their place and also the needed motivation to play the game at all.
Thank you for reading and I apologize again for potential annoyance
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 08:03:34
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The chosen are powerhouses. Plain and simple. Larloch - who I'd say is the most powerful villain of the realms (I know others disagree with that assessment - I read that scroll all the way through :P) is afraid of them all because he knows he can't beat 'em.
I'm not so confident with that assumption.
Especially in light of what Elminster said about the past troubles Larloch and the Chosen experienced during the Sundering and Mystra's eventual restoration. It almost sounded like they were occupying roughly the same level of arcane might.
Granted, magic was awry, and the Weave badly damaged. But from what Ed wrote in Spellstorm, I'm thinking that Larloch indeed could hold his own, at least for a time, when the coins were laid down, so to speak. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 05:46:47
The chosen are powerhouses. Plain and simple. Larloch - who I'd say is the most powerful villain of the realms (I know others disagree with that assessment - I read that scroll all the way through :P) is afraid of them all because he knows he can't beat 'em.
If Larloch can't see a way to take 'em out with a reasonable chance of success, how could your players :)
I'd say all you really have to decide here is whether they really piss her off or just amuse her. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 17:20:50
nah, by spell dueling, I mean actual strategy involving the intricacies of spells. Too many things are just out and out immune to vast types of spells, or there's a lack of a number of metamagic stratagems that were available that involved planning. Throwing out random "I counter it" doesn't feel to me like spell strategy. Also, when I say spell duel, I don't mean formal dueling. I mean the literal act of a wizard setting up their daily wards for days when they aren't going into a dungeon and expect only to go to the market, such that they are still prepared for dangers that show up unexpectedly. I also don't mean non-lethal... I definitely mean lethal. |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 10:09:39
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
As mentioned above, I intend to treat a fight against Laeral as an unbeatable bonus boss agianst whom you "die for the mistake of having picked a fight with them".
But case in point, it is surprisingly easy in this game to kill spellcasters once you have Antimagic Field (which was raised to 8th level), especially full casters like Simbul can be easily brought down. Problem is Laeral has some martial abilities, too.
They should know, so I'm actually quite curious what they are going to do to defeat her when they actually decide to do this and don't get cold feet.
Bear in mind with anti-magic field, in some older versions there was a feat called initiate of Mystra that enabled one to cast within such fields and I believe that silver fire would also work in such. That all being said though, you're correct with the current rules as written.... dead magic areas that someone might somehow be forced into also might be a problem. Do beholders still have their anti-magic central eye? If so, much danger there.
Just to note, along those lines for 3.5 I had written up some prestige classes to try and work around this issue.
I talked about this in university today, the friend told me that he would move an Arcane Gate through a sleeping Laeral make her drop from high point and take high falling damge and then spill a Back of Holding worth of Alchemical Fire on her for damage that can't be counterspelled. Feasibility aside I will equip probably equip her with a Ring of Feather Falling, despite knowing that it takes an attunement slot.
About Antimagic Field, in 5e the spell is an 8th level spell so in this campaign in which I don't intend to allow levels higher than 13 (they are currently 6-8), the spell is only accessible to them via spell scroll. And because Laeral has some martial powers, I actually don't fear Antimagic Field so much because they have to get an outside source that they have to convince turning on the Open Lord, which is not easy in itself.
About the initiate feat, I don't remember that particular initiate feat but initiate feats were only accessible to divine casters so Laeral couldn't have access to it in 3.5e and giving her more powers from Mystra herself has the danger of putting her in the position of someone who has the need to be looked after and this is a bit dangerous because it's already too easy to accuse her and her sisters of having gained power and immortality on a silver plate at birth.
Having a chosen of Mystra be disallowed from taking an initiate of Mystra feat would seem silly. Having a chosen of any god being disallowed from choosing any initiate feat would seem silly. That being said, I only mention it to point out that there were options in other versions that don't exist in 5e (much to my sadness, 5e is not a system for spell dueling.... its missing a level of intricacy that was in 3.5... but it does have some improvements like the rituals, the attunement of items, and it has a better memorization system... which at high levels really sucks as you have very few spells on hand... there really needs to be items which improve the number of spells you can have memorized.... which again goes back to lack of spell dueling).
Admittedly, you have a point regarding allowing initiate feats there. Though I still do fear that gaining overtly much power from the patron deity as special treatment makes a Chosen look not independent enough to be taken seriously.
About the lack of dueling, how about tweaking the Mageduel rules from 3e? Allowing to let mages fight each other without killing each other and allowing to cast Counterspell for free without losing a spell slot every let us say 1d4 rounds to put a degree of strategy like "should I use the bonus Counterspell now? Should I gamble on the opponent not knowing whether I have Counterspell as a general spell known?" Would that allow a satifactory non lethal spell duel?
The lack of number of spells known can for example be compensated by ruling that items like spell scrolls can only be used once each during the duel but aren't used up for real, so they can be used after the duel. Thus allowing a non lethal mock battle between spellcasters.
Admittedly these rules are made as I wrote this post so they probably have tons of holes.
But how about making such rules?
|
| sw1989 |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 07:33:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Chosen of Mystra don't need to sleep.
You're right. Thank you for the information. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 04:55:55
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
I talked about this in university today, the friend told me that he would move an Arcane Gate through a sleeping Laeral make her drop from high point and take high falling damge and then spill a Back of Holding worth of Alchemical Fire on her for damage that can't be counterspelled. Feasibility aside I will equip probably equip her with a Ring of Feather Falling, despite knowing that it takes an attunement slot.
The Chosen of Mystra don't need to sleep. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 02:13:36
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
As mentioned above, I intend to treat a fight against Laeral as an unbeatable bonus boss agianst whom you "die for the mistake of having picked a fight with them".
But case in point, it is surprisingly easy in this game to kill spellcasters once you have Antimagic Field (which was raised to 8th level), especially full casters like Simbul can be easily brought down. Problem is Laeral has some martial abilities, too.
They should know, so I'm actually quite curious what they are going to do to defeat her when they actually decide to do this and don't get cold feet.
Bear in mind with anti-magic field, in some older versions there was a feat called initiate of Mystra that enabled one to cast within such fields and I believe that silver fire would also work in such. That all being said though, you're correct with the current rules as written.... dead magic areas that someone might somehow be forced into also might be a problem. Do beholders still have their anti-magic central eye? If so, much danger there.
Just to note, along those lines for 3.5 I had written up some prestige classes to try and work around this issue.
I talked about this in university today, the friend told me that he would move an Arcane Gate through a sleeping Laeral make her drop from high point and take high falling damge and then spill a Back of Holding worth of Alchemical Fire on her for damage that can't be counterspelled. Feasibility aside I will equip probably equip her with a Ring of Feather Falling, despite knowing that it takes an attunement slot.
About Antimagic Field, in 5e the spell is an 8th level spell so in this campaign in which I don't intend to allow levels higher than 13 (they are currently 6-8), the spell is only accessible to them via spell scroll. And because Laeral has some martial powers, I actually don't fear Antimagic Field so much because they have to get an outside source that they have to convince turning on the Open Lord, which is not easy in itself.
About the initiate feat, I don't remember that particular initiate feat but initiate feats were only accessible to divine casters so Laeral couldn't have access to it in 3.5e and giving her more powers from Mystra herself has the danger of putting her in the position of someone who has the need to be looked after and this is a bit dangerous because it's already too easy to accuse her and her sisters of having gained power and immortality on a silver plate at birth.
Having a chosen of Mystra be disallowed from taking an initiate of Mystra feat would seem silly. Having a chosen of any god being disallowed from choosing any initiate feat would seem silly. That being said, I only mention it to point out that there were options in other versions that don't exist in 5e (much to my sadness, 5e is not a system for spell dueling.... its missing a level of intricacy that was in 3.5... but it does have some improvements like the rituals, the attunement of items, and it has a better memorization system... which at high levels really sucks as you have very few spells on hand... there really needs to be items which improve the number of spells you can have memorized.... which again goes back to lack of spell dueling). |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 18:46:36
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
As mentioned above, I intend to treat a fight against Laeral as an unbeatable bonus boss agianst whom you "die for the mistake of having picked a fight with them".
But case in point, it is surprisingly easy in this game to kill spellcasters once you have Antimagic Field (which was raised to 8th level), especially full casters like Simbul can be easily brought down. Problem is Laeral has some martial abilities, too.
They should know, so I'm actually quite curious what they are going to do to defeat her when they actually decide to do this and don't get cold feet.
Bear in mind with anti-magic field, in some older versions there was a feat called initiate of Mystra that enabled one to cast within such fields and I believe that silver fire would also work in such. That all being said though, you're correct with the current rules as written.... dead magic areas that someone might somehow be forced into also might be a problem. Do beholders still have their anti-magic central eye? If so, much danger there.
Just to note, along those lines for 3.5 I had written up some prestige classes to try and work around this issue.
I talked about this in university today, the friend told me that he would move an Arcane Gate through a sleeping Laeral make her drop from high point and take high falling damge and then spill a Back of Holding worth of Alchemical Fire on her for damage that can't be counterspelled. Feasibility aside I will equip probably equip her with a Ring of Feather Falling, despite knowing that it takes an attunement slot.
About Antimagic Field, in 5e the spell is an 8th level spell so in this campaign in which I don't intend to allow levels higher than 13 (they are currently 6-8), the spell is only accessible to them via spell scroll. And because Laeral has some martial powers, I actually don't fear Antimagic Field so much because they have to get an outside source that they have to convince turning on the Open Lord, which is not easy in itself.
About the initiate feat, I don't remember that particular initiate feat but initiate feats were only accessible to divine casters so Laeral couldn't have access to it in 3.5e and giving her more powers from Mystra herself has the danger of putting her in the position of someone who has the need to be looked after and this is a bit dangerous because it's already too easy to accuse her and her sisters of having gained power and immortality on a silver plate at birth. |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 18:20:28
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
I had to think about the situation with Laeral and the Harpers. Your mention of her break from the harpers is valid, but it seems to me that in Death Masks the Harpers have no problem working with her. It would seem that they have either moved on or forgiven her for that, OR they are willing to set it aside for the good of all.
On the question of how the folks of Waterdeep would react to an end to the Masked Lords.
The common folk of the city are going to go on living their lives as best they can regardless. The people who will make a difference in this scenario are the Nobles, Wealthy folk wanting to be Nobles, Guild Masters, plus the Zhents, Xanathar, and any other guilds and power players who seek to take advantage. These groups are already at war behind the scenes, the government is what keeps things in the shadows. The loss of that government would probably lead to the kind of open war in the streets that the Masked Lord system was created to stop.
So here is the question, if someone could somehow bring down the entire system of Lords in Waterdeep, how would they go about seizing control of the chaos and infighting that would result?
Hello Korginard,
thank you for the reply.
To be honest, I have no idea with what they want to replace the Masked Lord system after they tore it down. Assuming they manage to pit the populace against the Lords, tear it down and kill Laeral and paint her as the leader of a corrupt system that dealt in drug trade and murder, as I know them, they will probably first try to compel Malakuth and the people he leads to make a gras at power and try to enlist the help from various "newcomers" like the Churches of Mystra and Tyr and the Harpers, possibly the Moonstars and the Lord's Alliance and try to pit them against the various groups you listed. Please be aware this is very lengthy and while I wrote "as I know them" this is actually what I would suggest, though I'm quite confident hat they will play in a manner that can be at least compromised with mine.
I used the word newcomer because all these groups' membership were mostly based on humans and thus the original ones are mostly dead during their nearly century long absence and current humans have lived and dies their lives without them for about four generations and it worked more or less well and so these groups have a need of showing that they are needed and useful and most importantly not corrupt and believable. Of course the Lords' Alliance is an exception, they are the one durable institution here.
Convincing them to fight against criminals as the Xanathar or the guilds who are already viewed as borderline mafia is probably easy.
Nobles and the Chosen mentioned above by Wooly Rupert requires persuasion but if these groups try to make themselves powerful (Nobles) or take revenge (Chosen) than the above groups are obliged to fight them, if they want to have a chance to be recognized as worthy.
All groups can't afford to fight representatives of said corrupt system who have (re-)gained their privileges based on whom they were born to and these formerly impoverished people must have gained their new money from somewhere (given that nobles in the realms as a general rule are depicted as institutionalized bandits, with few exception, and the money source probably land was given to them without recompensation or payment on the nobles' side mentioned in the SWAC).
When it comes to the Chosen, these people are powerful. But when they go o revenge, and my group has managed to sway public opinion, they will be vigilantes bent to avenge a corrupt leader in everyone's eyes, in other criminals. The Church of Tyr will be obliged to fight them. For the Harpers and Moonstars this will be truly problematic because if they don't fight the Chosen, their oath to promote freedom from oppression forces them to fight the Chosen, because if they do nothing, then their oath is worthless for not protecting those taking out corrupt systems and if they side with the Chosen things are worse, they'd be the Chosen's private army of spies and assasins in everyone's eyes and would give every oppressor on Toril a reason to persecute them even more but with public opinion on their side, who wants to support henchman of overpowered vigilantes after all. This is ewspecially for the Moonstars who are directly related to Laeral have to show that they take their ideals serious.
As perverse as it does sound, the church of Mystra is even more in danger of being painted as a private army for the Chosen and not promotors of magic. For most human mages, magic was THE power without the need for approval by a god. This did change with Mystra's, q being who has the ability to exclude people from magic, ascension. This was certainly not a funny thought for mages who had pride in being independent and not needing to "beg for spells" and now have to confine themselves in rules set top down. The Church of Mystra has to show their worth by not causing problems and actively opposing people who want to avenge one of their Chosen who turned out to head a corrupt system.
The one group which will probably be purely constructive are the Lords' Alliance. This group wants order and if they have the choice between reinstitution of an unpopular system, which was iintransparent and thus more out of their control than others, and creating a new one in which creation they can take an influence on. They will probably take the latter.
This here is how I would go and I think the others' track of thoughts are more or less similar. But honestly the scale is so big that I won't be the DM of the follow up campaign "Create institutions in Waterdeep". While I wrote here what I think what will happen, there is very little concrete and also I'm not clear whether this in character.
I apologize for the lengthiness and thank you for reading so far |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 16:32:24
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, just my standard schtick, because I was happy to see her listed as returned. Leira obviously was never dead and was tricking everyone, especially Cyric... and anyone who is anyone knew it.... and those who deny it were obviously taken in (and those who say they knew it are just posers because they don't know how J/K).
I too, was always one who argued she was alive. But I don't think we should turn this topic into yet another such discussion :) Wooly might get his fur all ruffled. |
| Korginard |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 15:11:41
I had to think about the situation with Laeral and the Harpers. Your mention of her break from the harpers is valid, but it seems to me that in Death Masks the Harpers have no problem working with her. It would seem that they have either moved on or forgiven her for that, OR they are willing to set it aside for the good of all.
On the question of how the folks of Waterdeep would react to an end to the Masked Lords.
The common folk of the city are going to go on living their lives as best they can regardless. The people who will make a difference in this scenario are the Nobles, Wealthy folk wanting to be Nobles, Guild Masters, plus the Zhents, Xanathar, and any other guilds and power players who seek to take advantage. These groups are already at war behind the scenes, the government is what keeps things in the shadows. The loss of that government would probably lead to the kind of open war in the streets that the Masked Lord system was created to stop.
So here is the question, if someone could somehow bring down the entire system of Lords in Waterdeep, how would they go about seizing control of the chaos and infighting that would result?
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 13:17:08
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
As mentioned above, I intend to treat a fight against Laeral as an unbeatable bonus boss agianst whom you "die for the mistake of having picked a fight with them".
But case in point, it is surprisingly easy in this game to kill spellcasters once you have Antimagic Field (which was raised to 8th level), especially full casters like Simbul can be easily brought down. Problem is Laeral has some martial abilities, too.
They should know, so I'm actually quite curious what they are going to do to defeat her when they actually decide to do this and don't get cold feet.
Bear in mind with anti-magic field, in some older versions there was a feat called initiate of Mystra that enabled one to cast within such fields and I believe that silver fire would also work in such. That all being said though, you're correct with the current rules as written.... dead magic areas that someone might somehow be forced into also might be a problem. Do beholders still have their anti-magic central eye? If so, much danger there.
Just to note, along those lines for 3.5 I had written up some prestige classes to try and work around this issue. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 13:09:28
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
Yeah, just my standard schtick, because I was happy to see her listed as returned. Leira obviously was never dead and was tricking everyone, especially Cyric... and anyone who is anyone knew it.... and those who deny it were obviously taken in (and those who say they knew it are just posers because they don't know how J/K). |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 09:43:54
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
As mentioned above, I intend to treat a fight against Laeral as an unbeatable bonus boss agianst whom you "die for the mistake of having picked a fight with them".
But case in point, it is surprisingly easy in this game to kill spellcasters once you have Antimagic Field (which was raised to 8th level), especially full casters like Simbul can be easily brought down. Problem is Laeral has some martial abilities, too.
They should know, so I'm actually quite curious what they are going to do to defeat her when they actually decide to do this and don't get cold feet. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 04:57:40
In Death Masks, it appears that the Chosen are less powerful than they used to, and cannot use their magic as wildly, so that could change the situation a bit. But yeah, it's still going to be extremely hard tp harm her. But the only sisters that she could call are Alustriel and Storm atm (although Dove and Syluné can kind of follow her anywhere, given that they can take shape out of Weave-stuff). Elminster might also come to aid her. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 04:49:38
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 01:54:33
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think it would be basically impossible for 6th-8th level adventurers to kill Laeral, even if somehow they were to manage to get her alone without a city worth of support and that of her personal allies.
She's not only an archmage, but also a Chosen. Her usual AC is -1, so 8 out of 10 to hit rolls will miss. Even common defensive spells put her completely beyond their abilities to harm with weapons or magic... just imagine if she employed even a basic mantle, which is likely.
It would be hard but not impossible. Trickery can accomplish much that a straight up assault won't. Can they get Laeral to go somewhere that she shouldn't? Can they get Laeral to attack something she shouldn't? Can they get Laeral to pick up something she shouldn't? Can they convince someone else of power that Laeral has done something to them? Leira is not dead.... |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 08:21:32
quote:
Originally posted by BrianDavion
one thing worth noting, killing the Open Lord isn't going to achomplish jack all in terms of breaking the current system.
Well didn't do so in the time during the Spellplague and Neverember's reign and the times were far worse than today (e.g. no Harpers, no Chosen, no gods who bailed someone out). Apart from "killing the Open Lord" being more something of a side/bonus goal (I hope), this is why I want to know how various groups would react especially without public support for the system. |
| BrianDavion |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 07:42:13
one thing worth noting, killing the Open Lord isn't going to achomplish jack all in terms of breaking the current system. |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 06:52:53
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
In all honesty, from what I have read so far in Death Masks, who ISN'T trying too kill off Laeral and the Hidden Lords?
I think the best direction for your campaign is to make direct action impossible, but allow the party to become involved in the plots and intrigue of any number of Nobles, Zhents, Xanathar, and probably disgruntled postal workers at this point!! :P
Alone, a party of adventurers has no chance of toppling the government. Honestly... if it were that easy it would have been done long ago.
The better choice is to have them be caught up in the massive web of intrigue they will find once they start working on their plans.
Try to make it clear that they are small fish in a much bigger Ocean, and the Sharks are out in force!. This new idea of theirs is going up against power players who have been plotting against the lords for years or even decades. If they start attacking Lords or even investigating them, It should quickly be seen that they are not the only ones seeking to end the rule of the Lords. You could create some awesome adventure by putting them smack dab in the middle of the conflict, right in the crossfire between forces seeking to protect the Lords, and forces seeking to end them.
Some ideas
*) The party learns the identity of one of the Masked Lords and decides to break into his manor and slay him. They arrive to find their target is already dead, slain quite recently. Before they can learn much more, the Watch arrives and a chase ensues.
*) The party's actions have drawn the attention of an ambitious Lord who is already working on thinning the herd so he can take over. Does he target them, sending slaying squads to get them out of his or her way, or do they contact the party and arrange for an alliance? Can the party use this alliance to achieve their goals despite being used as fodder for the Lord's ambitions? If they succeed what do they do about their "Benefactor"? Surely once he takes over he won't want these adventurers around any more to take his own government down.
*) Someone has noticed the Party and decided they are a nuisance that must be removed. They choose to frame the party for their own crimes in order to draw attention away from their own plots.
*) The Party has been betrayed!!! Some close contact or associate sells them out to The Watch, The Harpers, or even the Zhents or Xanathar. They become wanted fugitives, either from the Law or hunted by the others. Being unable to show their faces in the city without attacks or pursuit by the Watch makes their plans that much more difficult.
Hello Korgianrd,
thank you for the ideas. I have to admit that I considered and thought about all of them during campaign creation except one. and that is to pit the PCs against the Harpers.
After all, Laeral was one of those who have split the Harpers and while she's in good standing with both of them, rivalry between Harpers and Moonstars and Laeral's loyalty to both groups (and the Lord's Alliance) may be a plot point worth exploring, though I currently have to think of a concrete way to make this happen, if it is to happen at all.
Thank you again for this idea, I can imagine it to be used at some point, perhaps not in this but another campaign. |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 06:39:58
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Unless you alter canon, killing a character like Laeral will be a near impossible task for your PCs. As Wooly pointed out, getting people to dislike the Masked Lords system (especially with Laeral at its head, since she has been bringing positive changes to Waterdeep since her arrival), and endorse a coup against them, especially after a century of cataclysms, is not going to be easy either.
Your PCs could try to seek the help of the enemies of Laeral, or of those who would wish to see the Masked Lords destroyed (the Xanathar, for example) but that's going to be risky. They have their own interests, and--with the vacuum of power to be filled--I don't think that your PCs' vision (whatever it might be) would have a place in their own vision. The PCs might just end up as pawns.
They might try and frame Laeral, setting up compromising scenarios that could discredit her, but it would require a massive effort, and other quite influent names in Waterdeep that might be convinced to help you (some guilds could be brought to your side, but how could the PCs be sure that their potential allies wouldn't sell them instead, or use them?). And Laeral is smart, she's going to investigate, she has friends, your PCs would need to be very careful with their steps. They could try to sabotage the city, and spread discontent, but that would again require massive resources/effort, and a quite long time. And it has the same risks as above, if not more. Or, if you want the Masked Lord to actually be a corrupted system, the PCs might have to uncover some hidden truth or shady business involving them, and use it against them.
They might also need to find out the secret identities of the other Masked Lords, in order to complete their revolution, and that too is not easy (evel less with the many false rumors spread by all of them).
A successful attempt would likely require your PCs to pull off all of the above to some degree, and Idk, it seems a very hard things to do for a group of 5 people, without some gamechanging support from a powerful organization. You mentioned the Dark Dagger. That could be a beginning, but they will surely need more. And, as I said, they will most likely need to be manipulative, when dealing with shady allies (setting them up to be neutered once the deal is done, maybe making them appear to be in league with the Masked Lord themselves, or stuff like that). Because, if the PCs truly mean to build an efficient, fair system, then they need to get rid of the organizations that would use the newly gained power merely to increase their profits/power.
You might want to pick up ''Death Masks'', by Ed Greenwood. It has just come out, and it involves a situation very similar to what you are describing (plus lots of lore tidbits about the current happenings in Faerun, if you're interested in that).
Hello Irennan,
thank you for the ideas. The organization part is a good point. The Dark Daggers in this campaign world have grown and capable of pursuing legal business due to:
1. Malakuth having simply outlived his (criminal) rivals
2. An influx of monstrous humanoids, impoverished elves and generally shuned people like the spellscarred who simply were good recruiting material for him
3. Being or buying the right to be a lord and being one for decades (said campaign that made him an aristocrat used 4e rules but was set 40 years after the Spelllague)
I admit that I thought that a large scale group was enough but due to your post I have to think of some way to put the group (and thus the PCs) into a better light than "the guys who work with gnolls, goblins, kobolds, trogolodytes, ..." in the public eye. I will try to make this point clear to my players so they understand what a dangerous game they are actually trying to pull off alone. I can imagine that they will just try to put Malakuth back to lordship and then secure his position and then (in a potential different campaign) tear down the system.
Framing Laeral sounds interesting but currently they are working with her, so I think openly turning against her until the current situation is solved is very unlikely. What I do think though is that they will use Laeral's resources to discredit the Masked Lords, after all it is suspected that at least one of them is complicit with drug trade. I'm currently thinking of creating a point system like in Tyranny of Dragons to measure tension bur for this I need a better understanding of the worst case scenario and the various power groups' reaction.
Thank you for pointing me to Death Masks. I will perhaps try it out. The problem that Mr. Greenwood's writing style is not my cup of tea. I understand that it can't be bad given the large fanbase but I always had problems reading through his books (I only read Silverfall, Herald and currently trying through Spellstorm so the actual experience is not that deep, though)
Again thank you for the reply and ideas. |
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