| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jhilahd |
Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 21:09:31
Are there any?
I mean, I know there are noble families in Waterdeep,to which I have no idea where they concede their power from. But do they have areas that the preside over like a Barony or provincial controlled region?
I plan on setting up a game in the North soon, but it always feels... hollow when I say Baron So-and-So requests your attendance or sends you out to do X, when I have no basis of knowledge about any nobility in the region.
For instance, are there nobles in the Dessarin Valley? Do they have control of any particular area or town/village? That sort of thing.
Can anyone help me in this area? Either tell me or point me in a direction to research it more. |
| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 01:42:51
In my Silver Marches campaign there are no true "Barons" per se other than Daggerford. Essentially every settlement has it's own rulers, be they a lord or other. The Marches are so empty that you can literally put any sized kingdom you want, virtually anywhere.
How I've treated it is there are "freeholds" scattered around some of the areas that are within a few days ride of some of the larger settlements/cities (sort of like Auckney on the Sword Coast North).
My players have also established their own "freeholds". One is near Silverymoon. The PC isn't a "noble" per se, but he does own titled land, and is thus a "lord" of his own freehold. He is recognized by the crown in Silverymoon, and can keep and own as much land as he is able to defend and keep free of monsters.
He pays no direct taxes to the Crown since his is a "free hold" outside the immediate area of Silverymoon control. However, in return for no tax burden, he is expected to keep his lands and the area immediately surrounding his lands safe and free from monsters, bandits, etc. Furthermore, should some serious event occur he must render any assistance to Silverymoon that is requested be it financial, material, men-at-arms, etc such that he is able to provide.
There is no true feudal system in the Realms. Much of that is covered in the excellent book "Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms". |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 09 Jun 2016 : 21:08:07
quote:
Originally posted by Owesstaer
Try the "Questions to Eric L Boyd" thread page 35: Shining Baronies around Daggerford
Thanks for the heads up. I started reading that page and found myself sidetracked by another link. I love this place... |
| Owesstaer |
Posted - 09 Jun 2016 : 13:25:38
Try the "Questions to Eric L Boyd" thread page 35: Shining Baronies around Daggerford |
| jhilahd |
Posted - 09 Jun 2016 : 13:12:01
Y'all are fantastic! This is great stuff, clearly I need to beef up my realms knowledge, as well as medieval stations. Again, thanks for this. Love the discussion. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 22:36:32
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
>>>I know there are noble families in Waterdeep,to which I have no idea where they concede their power from.
Regarding that one piece, the Waterdhavian nobles are merchant nobility. They don't so much rule over areas as have lots of money via merchant ventures of one sort or another (whether it be mercenary work or simply having tight control over some section of craftsmen). I'd suspect that a lot of them have small areas of the countryside where they have people that work for them (for instance, people selling beer may have farms, people selling wool may have sheep, etc...). However, some of these land holding may be far away from Waterdeep. As a result, I bet that they have access to a lot of portals that are undocumented (and possibly shared between multiple families).
And if you look at the web enhancement that covered Waterdhavian nobility, a lot of them were nobles from elsewhere. Obviously, being a noble in Cormyr doesn't automatically make someone a Waterdhavian noble, but it makes it easier. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 22:24:22
>>>I know there are noble families in Waterdeep,to which I have no idea where they concede their power from.
Regarding that one piece, the Waterdhavian nobles are merchant nobility. They don't so much rule over areas as have lots of money via merchant ventures of one sort or another (whether it be mercenary work or simply having tight control over some section of craftsmen). I'd suspect that a lot of them have small areas of the countryside where they have people that work for them (for instance, people selling beer may have farms, people selling wool may have sheep, etc...). However, some of these land holding may be far away from Waterdeep. As a result, I bet that they have access to a lot of portals that are undocumented (and possibly shared between multiple families). |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 21:16:33
Great point. 
It would require a delicate balance to remain frugal though. I suspect a typical nobleson has to patrol their lands for his clan elder, as powerful cavalry mercenaries are expensive. Perhaps the wealthiest of the nobles, those who lord over a small number of baronies and manors, are able to have their pampered offspring causing chaos the whole year round. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 20:56:01
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Excellent. Love those little details of lore.
The tenuous hold of duchies was probably shattered ever since, and mainly the reason nobles are losing ground to merchants and adventurers since then.
The concentration of the Norths nobility in cities and on city affairs in the lore suggest there are loads of impoverished nobles, especially those who have lost their holdings and are probably forced to live lives as traders or adventurers. Clans that do plan to hold their lands must have wisely invested in fortified manors in the hope they survive against their generations orc hordes, goblin sackings or dragon rage...
I think it's more a case of going where the action is. Sure, they'll have their manors and such outside of town, but who would want to live out in the boonies with just a bunch of peasants around, when you can live in the town, show off your wealth, go to parties, and scandalize your elders with all sorts of fun behavior? |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 19:35:31
Excellent. Love those little details of lore.
The tenuous hold of duchies was probably shattered ever since, and mainly the reason nobles are losing ground to merchants and adventurers since then.
The concentration of the Norths nobility in cities and on city affairs in the lore suggest there are loads of impoverished nobles, especially those who have lost their holdings and are probably forced to live lives as traders or adventurers. Clans that do plan to hold their lands must have wisely invested in fortified manors in the hope they survive against their generations orc hordes, goblin sackings or dragon rage... |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 18:41:48
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Is there evidence that the Sharrans sent that assassin for the Delimbiyran king? The GHotR seems to imply that the riots started by Lalondra the Dark Mother are connected to the murder of King Davyd.
It was a group of sharran assassins called the Hand of Loss who caused (possibly indirectly, but probably directly) the murder of King Davyd. The Hand went insane after the death of their mistress, who had them all under her magical control. Said mistress was one of the True Servants of Shar, who all died because of Lalondra. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 18:10:56
Is there evidence that the Sharrans sent that assassin for the Delimbiyran king? The GHotR seems to imply that the riots started by Lalondra the Dark Mother are connected to the murder of King Davyd. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 10:20:56
As others have noted above, barons and dukes etc come from titles granted by monarchs (which is why the Waterdeep nobility are simply "lords" because there has never been a "king" of Waterdeep). There haven't been any kingdoms in the North since the fall of Delimbiyran, "the Kingdom of Man" in the late 600s DR. The Daggerford dukedom is tied to the nobility of Delimbiyran (through the Duchy of Calandor - also known as Calantor - one of the sub-kingdoms of Phalorm that went it alone to form Delimbiyran after 523 DR) and so has a royal link. The Barony of the Steeping Falls that existed around the time of Athalantar was one in name only, with Artor Morlin using the title even though he was a Shoonite outlaw on the run. Another example of a barony in the North (again linked to Phalorm and Delimbiyran) can be found in 'Power of Faerūn'.
Of course, in wilderness areas and the frontier, if you set up your own independent hold or little territory, you can call yourself whatever you want! That happens all the time in places like the Border Kingdoms and the lands between the big realms (i.e in the Heartlands and the Unapproachable East).
So, if you want to have someone be a baron or duke in your campaign, I'd suggest you craft a back story that links them with some of the ancient realms of the North like Delimbiyran, Uthtower, and Yarlith. Make stuff up - the rest of us have been doing it for years!
-- George Krashos |
| BrianDavion |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 09:18:55
Per Ghost's of Dragonspear castle, Daggerford has several Barons (and presumably baronies) that answer to it. the very start of the adventure involves arriving at Cromm's hold, a "fortified manor" described as being an essential part of Daggerford's defence against incursions from the Lizard Marsh.
the Baroness who runs Cromm's holds DM description notes that "she feels that Duke Maldwyn could learn from her example and bring his barons under tighter control"
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| moonbeast |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 08:34:17
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
There are minor lords spread out all over Faerun, including in the North.
A barony, traditionally, is a title given to a military commander by their king when awarded a parcel of land to govern for them. The nearest mainland human monarchy to the Dessarin Valley is Cormyr, so that's not much cop.
Ahh, but don't forget that in 5th Edition, the Paladin-governed "kingdom" of Elturgard (not really a kingdom, but the FR Wikis and latest SCAG often refer to it as such) is a relatively new city-state (less than 100 years old) that wields huge influence in the Western Heartlands. And Elturgard is locally adjacent to Dessarin than Cormyr (some hundreds of miles to East).
In my 5e campaign, I'm making small modifications to an otherwise canonical 5e Sword Coast campaign. And one of the minor changes is that Elturgard is referred to as a "Palatinate" in my game. It's not a kingdom, there is no king. It's not a Barony, there is no Baron. It's ruled by a holy order of Paladins and LG clerics. So I borrowed the ancient word in the Charlmagne-ish sense. The Palatinate of Elturgard.
Going back to respond to the OP's question. Yes, the North may be sparser in terms of organized city-states, but I suppose there are minor baronies and freeholds governed by local "lords". The majority of those rulers probably govern nothing larger than a small town (and it's immediate rural agricultural territory). After all
. we do know that Yartar
. one of the better-known large towns in the Dessarin is governed by a so-called Water Baron.
Also one thing to keep in mind (still responding to OP, not to Hashimadoo who clearly knows much of this stuff better than I do) is that not all those "freeholds" and small baronies are really autonomously "free". Realistically, at least some of them will actually be tributaries or vassals to the larger city-states like Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, or even Silverymoon. Why should they pay tribute or want to be vassals of those larger cities? Mutual defense and protection is why.
A small independent town in the North is easy for any Orc Horde to crush and decimate. That town might have a better chance of survival if it pledged allegiance or vassalage to a larger city like Silverymoon/Mirabar/Luskan (cities with much larger standing armies and militias).
I've done exactly this in my 5E campaign creating a small town named Amberton in the South Sword Coast. Amberton is a small town, barely 1500 people. But it lies just a couple days ride south of Baldur's Gate. The town is small enough that it can only afford a defensive wooden palisade to surround it. It cannot afford granite walls yet. It lies astride the Coast Highway, which could make it prone to attacks by a small bandit raid, or even a raid from humanoid tribes or trolls residing in the nearby great forests.
As a result, it made sense for Amberton's "governor" to submit its allegiance to the government of Baldur's Gate. Since Amberton is starting to earn some trade/mercantile income because of its position along the Coast Way, it pays a small token paltry "tax" to Baldur's Gate. In exchange, the rulers of BG sends out a small cavalry reconnaissance troop (maybe just 5 or 6 troopers) to keep an eye out for the safety of its tributary, roughly once a week. Of course, if the recon troops ever suspect that its tributary is about to be attacked, it will send out a larger army to assist in its defense.
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| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 06:31:49
There are minor lords spread out all over Faerun, including in the North.
A barony, traditionally, is a title given to a military commander by their king when awarded a parcel of land to govern for them. The nearest mainland human monarchy to the Dessarin Valley is Cormyr, so that's not much cop.
The lords I refer to are usually (nominally) independent of any greater power and govern a defensible keep or manor surrounded by enough farmland to keep the locals fed with a little left over for trade. They are all over the place in the Realms and are rarely, if ever, included on maps.
As such, most of the settlements we know about in the region are much larger, like the city of Yartar (ruled by Waterbaron Nestra Ruthiol); the town of Triboar (led by Lord Protector Darathra Shendrel) and the temple-farm of Goldenfields (ministered by Abbot Ellardin Darovik). We also have some smaller settlements like Beliard, Westbridge, Womford and the Bargewright Inn but none of them are associated with nobles.
The Valley is hundreds of miles long so you could conceivably fit a tonne of minor holds in the space, but you'd likely have to come up with names yourself. |
| jhilahd |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 04:58:18
Thumbs up, sir. Thanks for the info. It's a start.
Get well.
And thanks again, I'll pester him when I can. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 21:24:30
I can answer but not today. The best source of info is going to be george krashos and eric boyd who did a ton of work for the only kingdoms in the north.
The short answer is possibly. There were many duchies that were part of the fallen kingdom, the kingdom of man, etc. Such as the duchy of caledor, the duchy of daggerfall and i believe the duchy of ellestam (might be making up the last one).
If memory serves me right there is a mention of the barony of starshadow in power of faerun (the sourcebook) but i cant recall where that was.
In real world terms a duke ruled over several barons but im not sure if that translates into FR.
In the savage frontier, in modern times you can build a keep in unclaimed territory and call yourself baron for as long as you can hold it (the name of the region is not a misnomer though). You could even call yourself Grandmaster of Dragons if you wanted. Only the people who live in your keep will care or use your title though. Most other large settlements ignore the claims of foreign nobility and treat them lesser than their own nobility (but still better than peasantry).
Anyway im just out of hospital, ill try and find you some quotes this week. If not pester George, hes much more knowledgable than me and is very helpful. |
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