| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 25 Mar 2004 : 01:09:14
My question is a statistical one. Mr. Greenwood has told me that A cleric can not be more powerful than the god that they worship, at least in his campaign. I'm just not clear as to how.
If a god has 20 ranks in Wizard and 20 in Fighter, would the maxium level of the cleric of that god be 39? What would happen if they were to go over that limit? Who would grant their spells and powers?
Would non-clerical count to that level? Say a cleric with 39 level in cleric and 1 level in bard?
Could anyone help out as I want to create a epic cleric of Finder Wvyernspur?
Thanks. |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 17:27:23
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
>>Unfortunately, the stats presented in Deities and Demigods and Faiths and Pantheons are >>of the gods themselves-you are then given instructions and examples of how to derive >>avatar stats *from* them.
Ah, didn't look that close. Sorry, then I have to agree... very unfortunate. Killing a deity should be something akin to destroying an artifact. You should have to destroy their various avatars, but it should also involve doing some special ritual at, say, the site where they ascended. It should involve destroying their most monumental temples and its high priests. It should involve very complex and needing to be researched methods to remove a deity. Of course, a demi-god (or whatever they call them now)would have an easier set of "requirements" to remove them as gods than a greater deity. If they statted out the gods themselves so that you can walk up and wail on them.... no matter how powerful they are, that was stupid.
In the Realms, you need divine assistance to kill a deity. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 16:54:31
>>Unfortunately, the stats presented in Deities and Demigods and Faiths and Pantheons are >>of the gods themselves-you are then given instructions and examples of how to derive >>avatar stats *from* them.
Ah, didn't look that close. Sorry, then I have to agree... very unfortunate. Killing a deity should be something akin to destroying an artifact. You should have to destroy their various avatars, but it should also involve doing some special ritual at, say, the site where they ascended. It should involve destroying their most monumental temples and its high priests. It should involve very complex and needing to be researched methods to remove a deity. Of course, a demi-god (or whatever they call them now)would have an easier set of "requirements" to remove them as gods than a greater deity. If they statted out the gods themselves so that you can walk up and wail on them.... no matter how powerful they are, that was stupid. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 12 Jan 2006 : 23:01:15
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
one thing you have to keep in mind is that these stats for a deity are for their avatars. This is the deity manifesting his power through a "construct" that he creates to deliver spells. A player is a "non-construct" that doesn't face the limitations that the deity has upon this "thing" that he's created. A cleric is a weapon of the deity no less than the deity's avatar is. Its just the function of one is different than the function of another.
Unfortunately, the stats presented in Deities and Demigods and Faiths and Pantheons are of the gods themselves-you are then given instructions and examples of how to derive avatar stats *from* them. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 12 Jan 2006 : 23:00:20
Ah . . . deities and 3rd edition, a match made is some plane that must have been edited out. One of the big scheduling and material mistakes I think they made was to put out Deities and Demigods before the Epic Level Handbook, then mention as a sidebar that you could alter their stats if you wanted to with the Epic rules. I always kind of read that as . . . "We'll give you these stats, but if you decide to use Epic rules, just make them up yourself." Which leads one to think, what was the point of statting out the gods then?
I think we pretty well got through 1st and 2nd Edition without stats for the gods, and I think we got used to the idea that you can't really, as a mortal, hope to kill off a god. I think at best the stats given in Faiths and Pantheons can work as avatars, though they aren't actually written that way. Personally, I don't have a problem with an epic level cleric of any god, with the possible exception of a brand new demigod.
Similarly, I don't have a big problem with statistics for Demigods either. They are either newly arrived to godhood, or fallen so low as to almost have no divine left in them, so I can picture mortal being able to wound and perhaps, with great effort, kill them.
Again, thats just my take. I don't mind divine ranks, etc, as its an interesting way to know how thing shake out even between similarly powered gods, but as far as specific stats, class levels, etc, I just don't think it was a good idea. And I REALLY think that to properly institute it, they should have made sure that they wanted to incorperate Epic level play into standard D&D (and d20) play. (Epic characters were not originally part of the SRD) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jan 2006 : 22:37:16
one thing you have to keep in mind is that these stats for a deity are for their avatars. This is the deity manifesting his power through a "construct" that he creates to deliver spells. A player is a "non-construct" that doesn't face the limitations that the deity has upon this "thing" that he's created. A cleric is a weapon of the deity no less than the deity's avatar is. Its just the function of one is different than the function of another. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 10 Jan 2006 : 20:07:00
I forget who, but it has been suggested that even demigod can grant epic spells to clerics. The fact with Demipowers there are fewer clerics requesting major power plus the fact epic clerics tend to develop a large following. Greater power has more people calling, but more power to spare. So that might help.
Plus there the possiblity of Epic clerics (And non-epic as well) of other gods converting to the demipower for various reasons. Like the Priest of Tempus who's life is stradgy suddenly discovering The Red Knight and converting. He is an epic player, but he is also likely to bring some of his followers into the new church. That can have effects.
Thoughts?
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 30 Mar 2004 : 03:13:55
To get back to this thread and to further clarify what I said above. Divine casters (or was it just druids and clerics?) in 2e could cast up to 2nd level spells without the help of a deity. After that they needed a deity to cast 3+ level spells. So you could base your ideas off that..... |
| Darth KTrava |
Posted - 30 Mar 2004 : 01:33:53
I fail to see how a god can limit the spells he/she can grant their clerics as gods are supposed to be above mortals in all ways, even spellcasting. I'm not sure how they came up with the class "breakdowns" for the gods.... But a god, no matter his/her divine rank should be able to even grant epic spells to those worthy of gaining them. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 26 Mar 2004 : 17:08:46
I know there's no restriction for this in third edition, but the way I've view it is that a deity with a certain rank in a divine- (cleric/paladin) or natural-magic (druid/ranger) class cannot grant spells over that level. That is, the character can gain more levels in that class, but is treated as having a Wisdom score insufficient to cast spells of a higher level than the deity in question.
So, a deity with, say, fifteen levels in cleric can only grant his/her clerics spells of up to 7th level. Bonus spells still count, so a metamagicked spell could take up an 8th or 9th level slot, if the character gains sixteen levels or more.
Levels in another class do not count in this limit. In fact, natural-magic classes wouldn't count, either, if the character got the magic directly from nature, not from a deity. (It's a deity in the Realms, usually, and usually the opposite in othe settings.) I wouldn't let a cleric or paladin multiclass as a druid or ranger unless the character gets the magic from the same deity.
Now, please keep in mind that this is my own interpretation. This is not official; in 3e, a deity with fifteen levels of cleric can still grant spells beyond what he or she can cast. I just happen to think this is bunk. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 25 Mar 2004 : 09:39:02
Don't worry about this.
There's no support for this in 3e.
Secondarily, remember that the deities as presented in Deities and Demigods and Faiths and Pantheons are of levels above 20th level characters. I don't see any problem with adding an additional 20 levels here and there for some of the deities. I believe there's sidebars in each of the above books and the ELH on this.
If you do want some kind of restriction, I'd suggest doing it off divine rank, not character level. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 25 Mar 2004 : 01:52:24
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
My question is a statistical one. Mr. Greenwood has told me that A cleric can not be more powerful than the god that they worship, at least in his campaign. I'm just not clear as to how.
If a god has 20 ranks in Wizard and 20 in Fighter, would the maxium level of the cleric of that god be 39? What would happen if they were to go over that limit? Who would grant their spells and powers?
Would non-clerical count to that level? Say a cleric with 39 level in cleric and 1 level in bard?
Could anyone help out as I want to create a epic cleric of Finder Wvyernspur?
Thanks.
Well it depends on what edition you are playing. 3rd edition did away with that rule and all deities now can grant all spell levels to thier mortal clerics.....
In 2e if you were a certain level like lesser deity, then you could only grant up to a certain spell level to your clerics..... I forgot what those limits were though. |
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