| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Vehiron |
Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 01:00:54
Elen sila lumenn omentilmo!
I have been working lately on adding and restructuring of a few elven prestige classes and concepts, and I wish to humbly present my take on the matter of resurrecting the Elven High Mages as usable npc, and on rare occassions, possible player characters. Perhaps I am not alone in my approach, when I state that the 3.X Edition took away huge amounts of mood, mystique, and fantasy/glamour value of the wonders of 2nd edition. Please make no mistake, I am by far no expert on the latter, in fact I have only stumbled upon it in depth, while researching Elven High Magic, and asked for a few books from a mate who as a fellow DM is rather a 2nd edition advocate. I immediately became awestruck, and immersed in the mood of the Cormanthyr, Empire of the Elves book. Thus, after eating my way through the books like a hungry badger, I threw out the previous concept I designed for the High Mage, and feel that this approach might be considered as a valid combination of the essentials of both editions, for the 3.x system.
Intentions and guidelines/directions of the design:
1)Defining Epic. The class is intended to be Epic and Regal, as I believe it should be. I like epic classes to be epic, unlike for example the ones presented in the ELH. I oppose the „regular” approach of giving epic classes less, or in the best cases the same advancement value as that of non-epic classes, since it takes (at least in my games) much more work, time and effort to advance in them, and they are the rare hallmarks of a few epic heroes/antiheroes, who might be able to shape the world with the greatest impact value they exist in. Thus, in my belief, an epic class should be able to fulfill the concept it is intended to represent, and not just hint at it. On the other hand, the class is not intended for uber-power gamers, or people who like to break epic magic rules. (No, Elven High Mages do not „produce spellcasters” to participate in Sacred Epic ritual spells via summoning/calling, they rely on each other, elvenkind and the weave, and in most dire cases are happy to give their lives to protect the community.)This I feel, needs to be stated, for from an uber-power gaming perspective, the class might be considered as useless, while a minimalist might view it as too powerful. It is especially so, since the rules and boundaries of Epic Spellcasting can be considered as best left to individual DM interpretation. So I respectfully ask the kind sages present to express their much appreciated and anticipated views and ideas on the class with taking the aforementioned into consideration.
2)Concept. The Elven High Mage is The Master of Magic, a servant to the elven community, the preserver of the weave, a Noble Protector, an advisor to the Coronal, an enlightened sage and loremaster, an epic practitioner of the ART who does not exist apart from it, but is a living echo of the essence of the arcane. Their abilities, special powers and approach are intended to reflect this connection. Thus, the main components of the build are drawn from the following existing „material”, with taking the powers of the High Mages described in various sourcebooks into careful consideration: The Magister template, The Elven High Mage PRC and the 2nd Edition’s approach to High Mages. The structure of the Olin Gisir/Loremaster classes served as a great inspiration. The work, as you might kindly notice, is not completely finished yet, and I would be most grateful for any insights on the matter, especially on the „problematics” regarding the Rituals.
ELVEN HIGH MAGE:
HD: d4
REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become an elven high mage, a character must fulfill
all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any Good and Nonchaotic
Race: Sun elf, moon elf, or wood elf.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 25 ranks, Spellcraft 25 ranks.
Feats: Epic Skill Focus [Knowledge (arcana)], Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft),
Elven Spell Lore, Cooperative Spell, Cormanthyran Moon Magic, Create Portal, Eschew Materials, Endurance, Spell Mastery.
Spellcasting: Able to cast 9th-level arcane spells.
Special: Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level 1(May not be a specialist wizard). Must survive scrutiny and meet with the approval of all existing elven high mages.
CLASS SKILLS
The elven high mage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (any) (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy
(Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak
Language, Spellcraft (Int) and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 +Int modifier.
Elven High Mage
Level Special Spells per Day
1st Epic Spellcasting, High Generalist Wizardry, Ritual Attendant, +1 level of existing class
2nd Mythal invention, Seed affinity, Secret +1 level of existing class
3rd Ritual Mastery I (Rituals of Solitude) +1 level of existing class
4th Secret +1 level of existing class
5th Ritual Mastery II(Rituals of Complement) +1 level of existing class
6th Secret +1 level of existing class
7th Ritual Mastery III(Rituals of Myriad) +1 level of existing class
8th Secret +1 level of existing class
9th Ritual Mastery IV(Rituals of Legend), Ritual Savant +1 level of existing class
10th Secret, Blessing of Arvandor +1 level of existing class
Epic Spellcasting: Gain Epic Spellcasting as bonus Feat
High Generalist Wizardry: Gain Extra Epic Spell Slot (by attributing the extra spell slot RCF of the Elf Wizard to Epic Spellcasting)
Ritual Attendant: Add EHM Class level to Spellcraft DC Reduction as ritual participant (As an additional participant as mitigating factor for the casting of an Epic Spell, the EHM may add his class level to reducing the DC of the intended Spell. Example: Lvl 2 EHM substracts 19+2 when contributing an epic spell slot to the casting of a spell from the DC)
Mythal Invention: EHM level x5 % Cost Reduction from all Epic Spell Creation Costs; Gain Ignore material Components as bonus Feat
Seed afinity: Substract EHM level from base Epic seed DC-s (Example: the Reveal seed’s Spellcraft DC is 16, instead of 19 for a level 3 EHM)
Ritual Mastery: The main Hallmark of the Elven High Mage, Ritual casting is where he truly shines, working together with others. This ability enriches the caster’s magical knowledge in two directions. First, he is able to assist even more in the casting of Epic ritual Spells, by applying more and more of the bonuses (added together) described at each Ritual Mastery level as a participant. He may not use these bonuses when he is casting a non-ritual Epic Spell. Second, he learns the appropriate „Rituals of Elven High Magic”*
Ritual Mastery I: Add Con Bonus to Spellcraft DC Reduction as ritual participant (Rituals of Solitude*)
Ritual Mastery II: Add Int Bonus to Spellcraft DC Reduction as ritual participant (Rituals of Complement*)
Ritual Mastery III: Add Wis Bonus to Spellcraft DC Reduction as ritual participant (Rituals of Myriad*)
Ritual Mastery IV: Add Cha Bonus to Spellcraft DC Reduction as ritual participant (Rituals of Legend*)
Secret: By growing more and more attuned to the Weave, he increasingly understands the secrets of magic. Each level where he gains a secret, he may choose one from the following list:
Astral Shield (Ex): The High Mage is immune to all enchantment spells and effects and psionics, and gains +2 holy bonus on saving throws against all magical effects.
Magesight (Ex): The High Mage’s connection to the Weave allows him to sense wild magic or dead magic areas, spellcasting, gates, portals, and ongoing spell effects within 60 feet. These are sensed automatically without concentration, and magesight operates even when the EHM is unconscious (awakening the EHM if something new enters the range of her magesight). He also gains the following Spell-Like Abilities: At will - feather fall (automatic), levitate, read magic, true seeing; 6/day - dimension door, water walk. He receives all the benefits of the Initiate of Mystra Feat, with adding the spells it provides as arcane spells to his spellbook.
Mind Blank (Su): The High Mage is constantly protected by a heightened (10th-level) mind blank.
High Mage’s Step (Su): The High Mage can step through any magical barrier of 6th level or lower as if it did not exist. This does not destroy the barrier; the Magister simply passes through it. He is also immune to all forms of magical writing (such as glyph of warding, explosive runes, sepia snake sigil, and symbol), and his presence does not trigger their effects.
Spell Attunement (Su): The High Mage casts all spells as if he had the Spell Focus feat for all schools. He gets a +10 circumstance bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks. He only needs 10 minutes per day to prepare spells.
Ritual Savant: The High Mage may change any non ritual epic spell he knows to ritual, or cast a ritual epic spell he knows and add or substitute an additional number of ritual participants according to his Intelligence bonus, to the casting of the Spell as mitigating factors „spontaneously”, who may spend spell slots in place of, or in addition to the mitigating factors already incorporated into the spell. Doing so requires a successful Concentration Check against a DC of the total level of spell slots contributed that way minus the DC reduction from the Ritual Mastery class features. A failure on the roll automatically produces a backlash, with the strength of all mitigating factors combined (regardless of nature) together in d6 dies of damage. The damage may be distributed among the ritual participants voluntarily (only between High Mages). As „usual”, a participant may decide to sacrifice his life for substracting 50 from the spellcraft DC, or by mitigating 50 dice of damage to the other participants.
Blessing of Arvandor: By attaining the highest possible understanding of mortal magic, and the flow of the weave, the master of elven magic is blessed with the following benefits: He may cast any wizard spell he knows spontaneously (like the cleric’s ability to cast cure spells), and may prepare and learn any spell he is able to cast without the use of a spellbook.
System (The reasoning behind the features):
Requirements:
->7 feats. The fact that 7 non-epic feats are needed to enter the class might seem to be too steep, and that is intended so. These feats represent the wholescale of knowledge and abilities that are needed to start learning the highest of the elven arts. A lifetime of learning (spending all 7 „inherent” character feats) is absolutely necessary.Only the most dedicated are able to gain acceptance, high magic requires nothing less. (all the Feats are either ones that the class builds upon as prequisites, or abilities that are mentioned in various sources as being required from the high mages to know)
->2 Epic Feats. Same as the „Vanilla” PrC. Now that seems to be an eternal topic with the class. After much contemplation I have stayed with the original requirements, because of several reasons:
a) In the 2nd edition, Elven High Mages are required to be at least 17th level (which is an equivalent of levels 25-27 in D&D). So even with these requirements, characters are able to get into the class „early” (at level 23 with an epic PrC, or at 24 without).
b) There are several methods for retraining Feats, some of these might be used in conjunction with retraining 1 non-epic Feat for an Epic one after level 20 (Skill Focus-Spellcraft comes to mind, especially if the character is built as an archmage), so if even earlier entry is needed, it can be done by raw (after level 22).
c) I like to stay with the original, as much as possible.
Special:
->Elf Wizard 1 RSL. A great reflection on the elven approach of magic. Elves do not like to cut themselves off from magic, not even from a part or a bit, it is their „lifeblood”, so they naturally favor the generalist approach. Yet it is the same background, that gives them more understanding over the „other simple generalists”. As their speciality is being a generalist, so is it evident that they are not only better at it than others, but the same feature should be reflected in Elven High Magic too, hence the High Generalist Wizardry feature.
Class features:
Seed Affinity and Mythal invention. Both were on one side seriously underpowered, and on the other did not reflect enough on either the generalist approach (choose one seed at a time), nor the continuous development of knowledge and understanding of the High Mages. A special feature that one can use only once, or twice, or thrice in a lifetime, does not reflect wisdom, and permanency, much more opportunity and chance. Features, just as skills, or the trees in the elven woods, should continuously grow with the character.
Ritual attendant, Ritual Mastery and Ritual Savant features. Obviously, Elven High Magic focuses very heavily on rituals and ritual magic. On one hand, there was a need to somehow include the unique Rituals from 2nd edition, while on the other it seems imperative to reflect that elven high mages commit themselves to magic and their rituals with their whole being, body and soul. Con, Int, Wis and Cha bonuses to rituals intend to reflect that commitment and resonance, and constitution is a class requirement in 2e, as are Int and Wis. They are the strongest, when they operate in unity, opposed to the individualist approach of other races towards magic. This is their true speciality, a unique option, where the class should be the strongest, having unique strengths and abilities.
Secrets. A set of secret and mystical knowledges and powers were called for, to simulate both their knowledge, and their attunement with magic, and to simulate the secrets kept away from other races, just as some special abilities described in various sources, attainable by wise advancement, like that of the Olin Gisir. A good example on High Mage’s step, and some other abilities, is the event, when „no wards and magical defenses could stop the high mages from stealing the nether scrolls from the Nethrese, who were truly surprised that the elves managed to do so undetected and without setting off or disturbing the wards. The elves had not taught all their secrets to them.”
Blessing of Arvandor. There needs to be a crown of the tree, a top of a mountain where there is a peak. A powerful ability that sits on the top, a final piece of wisdom that reflects the ultimate understanding of the whole. The line between sorcerer and wizard finally dilutes and dissolves, and only magic remains. The journey ends in a way, where seemingly opposite methods and features are revealed to be the same.
Fortunately, the journey of the class hopefully does not end here. Here is the place, where I respectfully ask for any opinions and insights, or ideas in general from the sages of Candlekeep. I am especially interested in any new suggestions from 2e Loremasters, especially where the last remaining piece of „unfinished pile of to be converted features” lie:
*Rituals of Elven High Magic (Rituals of Solitude, Myriad, Complement and Legend). A most inspiring nut awaiting to be cracked. So far, I have been working with 3 possible approaches:
1)Leave the rituals as they are, simply converting 2e spells and features to 3.x, with a bit of power adjusting here and there where needed.
2)Build them up new, according to set basics, basing on the UA ritual magic (Incantation) custom rules.
3)Rebuild them as epic ritual spells, with the predefined and set (from 2e) minimum number of participants (1 for solitude, 3 for Complement, 5 for myriad). In this case, these Epic Spells, as an exception, could be taught by one High Mage to another (and/or learned automatically when attaining the necessary Ritual Mastery level). In this case, one possible „downgrading” option for the class could include, that the Ritual Savant feature works only with these spells and possibly with the Mythal seed.
Regardless of choice, according to my opinion, this is the section where a source of „infinite number” of rituals, secret elven lore and wisdom, new experiments and possibly even new custom epic seeds might await the DM and Players alike.
I eagerly await any opinions on the class, with great anticipation.
P.S: Since english is not my mother tongue, I should ask any kind sages who might have problems with understanding any bit of my post because of any possible language based inconsistencies, to point out the errors with due haste.
Aa' lasser en lle coia orn n' omenta gurtha
Vehiron
|
| 4 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Vehiron |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 12:20:33
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I will ad more later, but I will say that it is extremely powerful. Too powerful I woudl say.
And albeit you say that the prerequisite feats are a must, I think you miss a point about the feel of the class. If you were deemed ready by the "elders" you were allowed to begin. It really didnt matter what you could construct or whether you were good at forced march.
I would say that if you do want a high prerequisite make it 20 levels of wizard, and add the official two epic feats. That way a player can still choose his own feats, but still become powerful. And since epic skillfocus (knowledge arcane) does nothing for you at epic level, it basically a waste. INdeed it might be a flair feat, but its useless and few players I know really wants to have useless feats when they could take meta-magic feats.
One last point... I would rather have you come up with your own ideas for class abilities than copy from the Magister template. What I'm saying is, that I might think it would be cooler if you homebrewed the whole thing. I think you did a great job, but I think you could hit the "feeling" of a ultimate master of the art better than you have so far. 
I am most grateful for your most inspiring answer. One reason I have not updated the changes so far is (besides time being a bit sparse because of work, university administration chores, and the 2 games I am running) just as your kind suggestion hints, that I am working on a remake in a wider sense of "the original". Indeed basing on a more individually inventive approach regarding the class abilities. Yet I do not wish to discard canon and lore, and thus feel that most abilities of the "special" feature need to be included in a way. Enchantment immunity feels especially right, considering both the elven approach (and nature) to this school, and the Olin Gisir feature that supports a high resistance ability at this field. Mind Blank feels like adding mystique to this class, with members being shrouded in mystery, and not being able to be found, unless they would wish, furthering the "unreadable" aspect. The ability to bypass magical barriers and wards without breaking them is an ability described by High Mages as a unique secret they know, so that is something that should be included too, I believe. I did not choose the magister template simply to "throw something in", but because it felt that it demonstrated abilities that one possesses when perfectly and wholly "blessed by and attuned to" magic on one hand, while curiously accurate in describing (and compressing) the abilities of High Mages I was fortunate to collect from lore on the other. So in that context, the problem is that I consider these abilities to be perfect and fitting, while acknowledging and feeling the need to create more than a simple copy of a template.
Regarding your suggestions about metamagic, and the feat requirements. I feel the need to explain my approach in this context (which is naturally by far not necessarily right, and I am happy to be open to any changes) 1)Metamagic is a highly individualist option, which I feel is opposed to the communal approach appreciated and practiced by the High Mages. One of the thoughts behind the requirements is (besides the ones already described), to focus on that, and the „necessary” need to limit metamagic as an „opposing factor”. This of course should not mean that it was forbidden, a character is still able to choose at least 5-6 feats to spend freely on whim (3-4 as class bonus/2 from flaws). I feel this approach to be supported by the requirements of the Vanilla PrC too, wich has no metamagic requirements on one hand, while asking for deep and general knowledge in regards to magical theory, arts and lore. 2)The focus of the class is casting epic ritual spells. Basically they are ritual specialists (besides of course other features). Since metamagic is useless in this context, and the class truly receives a more than fair compensation for the entry feats in epic spellcasting and other abilites, and since they are certainly not described explicitely as „battle mages”, I so far do not see the need to „compensate them” with more freedom regarding metamagic options. 3) This is intended to be a balancing factor too. Receiving powerful abilities should come at a cost, and since (unlike with „normal” specialists), their casting abilities may not be limited by forbidding schools of magic, both because of fluff and generalist approach, and since I am struggling to power-balance the class (even if it does not seem like that at the moment :p ), the feat requirements serve that purpose too.
You have helped me a lot with your kind suggestions, and I hope that you will honour me with more in the future. :) |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 09 Jan 2016 : 01:27:53
I will ad more later, but I will say that it is extremely powerful. Too powerful I woudl say.
And albeit you say that the prerequisite feats are a must, I think you miss a point about the feel of the class. If you were deemed ready by the "elders" you were allowed to begin. It really didnt matter what you could construct or whether you were good at forced march.
I would say that if you do want a high prerequisite make it 20 levels of wizard, and add the official two epic feats. That way a player can still choose his own feats, but still become powerful. And since epic skillfocus (knowledge arcane) does nothing for you at epic level, it basically a waste. INdeed it might be a flair feat, but its useless and few players I know really wants to have useless feats when they could take meta-magic feats.
One last point... I would rather have you come up with your own ideas for class abilities than copy from the Magister template. What I'm saying is, that I might think it would be cooler if you homebrewed the whole thing. I think you did a great job, but I think you could hit the "feeling" of a ultimate master of the art better than you have so far. |
| Vehiron |
Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 15:32:58
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Not even the Arcane Lord is as obscenely powerful as this class. It literally blows the epic archmage class out of the water.
There is no single prestige class, normal or epic, that provides so many powerful options that culminates with a salient divine ability as the capstone. You've also managed to invalidate sorcerers; the capstone is useless to them because they already cast their spells spontaneously.
Thank you for your inspiring comment, I agree with you, the class is intended to be powerful, as Elven High Mages should be. One reason however, out of many why I respectfully asked for insights like yours is that I am quite open to the adjustment of the power level of the class . I took the following factors into consideration while designing:
-This is a class that SHOULD be able to cast Mythals (by far not alone), and anyone looking at it should be able to believe that it is able to do the job. Considering that Elven High Mages are a reclusive and a scarce lot, and very few of them exist, and that the number of participants they might allow to join their rituals are also limited, while at the same time there is absolutely nothing that the Ritual Attendant/Ritual Mastery I-IV features provide in this context, that could not be duplicated by non-EHM epic spellcasters with adding additional ritual participants as mitigating factors to their spells, I do not believe these features to be overpowered, while necessary in „reconstructing” the original approach to high mages.
-The Vanilla Prc Received 2 Epic Feats, I have stayed with that. Granting Epic Spellcasting and Ignore Material Components did not only seem as fitting, but also as necessary.
-The Specials are basically restructured Magister template features, providing a +4 CR. While this might not pose as much of an unbalancing issue in games where LA is discarded completely (especially considering that most of these features can be replicated by non-epic magic items, or a well designed epic spell) and Challenge Rating is used instead (the class is designed in that sense), I naturally and wholeheartedly agree, that in games where LA is still used, the Special feature abilities could very well be considered as most overpowered, especially considering that it is a 10 level class, so in that case I believe a Level Adjustment of +1 should be added to the character each time he gains a Secret (For a total of +5 at the end). This could very well represent the hard work, and time that is needed to advance as a High Mage. I should very much appreciate insights on this issue. and will modify the original post in this context.
I believe that top level High Mages should be as powerful considering epic ritual casting, and „the” arcane class of epic levels in this field, as is the Incantatrix of non-epic classes in the context of metamagic. Hence the Ritual Savant feature.
The salient Divine Ability as the capstone, as you have kindly remarked, truly „trashes” sorcerers in this context, and with reason. Even as one of the requirements of the class, the Elf Wizard 1 RSL is intentional, and no mistake. 1)There are no „elf sorcerer” special features, and the wizard is a favored class of the elves because of the same reasons, everything resonates around wizardry with and around elves. It symbolises, just as all accounts on High Mages strongly stress, the importance of learning, and foremostly the understanding of magic. Sorcerers do not learn their spells, do not learn magic, they „simply” know the arcane arts, their approach to the matter is instinctive, and thus they necessarily lack the required understanding (elven high mages rituals are taught and not instinctively known). Additionally, for them, magic is essentially power, as the foremost sorcerers of the material plane, the dragons have so often demonstrated, and that their approach is quite contradictory to that of the elves regarding magic. Thus, sorcery and wizardry might be regarded as two opposite sides of the same coin.
2)I believe it to be most fitting that at the end, as the final stage of understanding, the Highest ranking member of an epic prestige class (who might be well around or even above 40 ECL at that stage, and thus approaching divine proportions in that context) of which’s members do not simply count among the members of „classes who tend to rely and focus heavily on wizardry”, but are considered to be the highest and unparalelled pinnacles and sages of that art, to reach the final understanding and unity symbolised by the full coin. Is it a powerful feature? I quite beleive so. (just as a metamagic specialist/well designed Incantatrix is, and would probably own a High Mage in direct battle, even with this feature) Is it too powerful? That should depend on the running and nature of epic campaigns, I believe. Characters of that level, are more than mortal heroes and less than demigods, and thus that state might very well be reflected with gaining access to one salient divine ability, if and when deserved or proper. Yet power and balance concerns seem to be relevant in this case.
Thus, after careful reconsideration of the class, basing on the impressions of your most inspiring post, and carrying the base concept with the 7 required feats further, I will make the following adjustments:
-The Elven High Mage receives a level adjustment of +1 any time he gains a „Secret” ability. This adjustment may not be bought off.
-The Ritual Savant and Blessing of Arvandor Class features shall be scrapped from the gained ability list, and be made, as Epic Feats, accessible (but not granted) to High Mages only, with Ritual Savant as a standalone Feat, and with Blessing of Arvandor split into two (meaning it will require 2 epic feats to gain the full feature, since salient Divine Abilities are described to be worth 2 epic feats).
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 01:18:01
Not even the Arcane Lord is as obscenely powerful as this class. It literally blows the epic archmage class out of the water.
There is no single prestige class, normal or epic, that provides so many powerful options that culminates with a salient divine ability as the capstone. You've also managed to invalidate sorcerers; the capstone is useless to them because they already cast their spells spontaneously. |
|
|
