| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 02:38:59
Hi folks,
Been a long time between postings. I'm currently working on a 10th level adventure that I want to run in the Ruins of Myth Drannor setting. I'll be using the box set for the first time, and I've hit a bump with some of the spells that are blocked by the mythal.
It says that the mythal blocks all divination, mind influencing, and mind affecting spells, while causing those who attempt to use teleportation magics to be shunted to a random location.
That sounds like it would be a very challenging environment for the PCs, right? Except that it nerfs most of the big scary monsters they include in the setting. Baatezu use greater teleport and dominate. Alhoon favor mind-affecting spells, as do the Paerimm. The latter also have the supernatural ability to see magical auras as the arcane sight spell, and can see invisibility.
I note that this was all changed for the Attack on Myth Drannor adventure, which is a third edition product, but there was no explanation for the change, and no attempt to reconcile it with established realms lore. Teleport across the mythal's boundaries was still blocked, but it worked within the city, as did all the prohibited types of magic.
So, my question is should I keep the prohibitions, and let the monsters be nerfed, or should I do away with them and play the monsters at full strength. Or should I adopt some intermediate position?
On the one hand, I can see a benefit to making the monsters less lethal. It would explain why they haven't been able to seize total control over the city, and create a little more space for the adventurers to move around. A single pit-fiend is CR 20, and would be able to wipe the floor with the party. There are at least two named pit-fiends in the city with a whole host of subordinates. One wonders how a non-epic level adventuring party can enter without becoming lunch.
On the other hand, there are some abilities that seem integral to the monsters, like the phaerimm's ability to see invisible creatures and magical auras, and the Alhoon's use of dominated slaves. Is it too much to do away with those things?
I'm particularly interested in reading what others have done in this situation, and how it worked for them?
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| 22 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 15:41:07
My campaign is still set in the early 1370s.
I'm satisfied with the answers I have for the current adventure, but if you want to open the thread up to a general discussion of alternative ways of running the mythal, I'd be interested in hearing those ideas. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 10:03:52
That depends on your PCs.
If your players aren't optimized, I'd suggest not nerfing them. If your PCs are optimized, it's another story. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 03:47:58
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Why is the assumption that the mythal is operating correctly? I was under the impression that the mythal was failing, and had failed in several aspects which would make the ORIGINAL mythal powers irrelevant in this case and frankly carte blanche for you as DM to do as you see fit. I'm sure some Pharimm have figured out how to use parts of the mythal that are still functional, and possibly twist others. Alhoon as well. Demons not so much. I think using the original rules WITH some unexpected twists to keep things interesting would be my route. So yeah Mr Baatezu can't use mind effecting spells or some spell like abilities, but Mr Alhoon can do whatever the hell he wants, and Phaerimm...just get away from them. I think the real canon view is that everyone is there trying to exploit the mythal and gain magical power and that some are more successful than others. The successful factions would be those more attuned with and closer to the Weave...or those that can control such 
I suppose it would depend upon what time setting your Myth Drannor game session is set in. When it was going through a restoration before Shade dropped on it, I imagine the mythal was being restored along with the city itself.
"being restored" implying that the mythal is still in a state of some sort of dysfunction. Any timeline for any version of the FR campaign setting would include a "failing" mythal. Doesn't sound like OP is playing when Myth Drannor was actually occupied by goodly humaniods. |
| Rymac |
Posted - 09 Jan 2016 : 00:59:41
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Why is the assumption that the mythal is operating correctly? I was under the impression that the mythal was failing, and had failed in several aspects which would make the ORIGINAL mythal powers irrelevant in this case and frankly carte blanche for you as DM to do as you see fit. I'm sure some Pharimm have figured out how to use parts of the mythal that are still functional, and possibly twist others. Alhoon as well. Demons not so much. I think using the original rules WITH some unexpected twists to keep things interesting would be my route. So yeah Mr Baatezu can't use mind effecting spells or some spell like abilities, but Mr Alhoon can do whatever the hell he wants, and Phaerimm...just get away from them. I think the real canon view is that everyone is there trying to exploit the mythal and gain magical power and that some are more successful than others. The successful factions would be those more attuned with and closer to the Weave...or those that can control such
I suppose it would depend upon what time setting your Myth Drannor game session is set in. When it was going through a restoration before Shade dropped on it, I imagine the mythal was being restored along with the city itself. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 22:47:45
Why is the assumption that the mythal is operating correctly? I was under the impression that the mythal was failing, and had failed in several aspects which would make the ORIGINAL mythal powers irrelevant in this case and frankly carte blanche for you as DM to do as you see fit. I'm sure some Pharimm have figured out how to use parts of the mythal that are still functional, and possibly twist others. Alhoon as well. Demons not so much. I think using the original rules WITH some unexpected twists to keep things interesting would be my route. So yeah Mr Baatezu can't use mind effecting spells or some spell like abilities, but Mr Alhoon can do whatever the hell he wants, and Phaerimm...just get away from them. I think the real canon view is that everyone is there trying to exploit the mythal and gain magical power and that some are more successful than others. The successful factions would be those more attuned with and closer to the Weave...or those that can control such |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 04:11:18
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Hi Erskine!
I think that exposure to the mythal over centuries would assist you in manipulating it/controlling it in large and small ways if you had a connection with the Weave (i.e. were a spellcaster). I think it is perfectly reasonable to think that "big" baddies of the ruins like Druuth or the phaerimm would have learned to bypass some of the interdictions, some of the time.
-- George Krashos
Thanks, George!
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 01:20:40
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
Is it reasonable that any of the major bad guys might have discovered this ability?
Hi Erskine!
I think that exposure to the mythal over centuries would assist you in manipulating it/controlling it in large and small ways if you had a connection with the Weave (i.e. were a spellcaster). I think it is perfectly reasonable to think that "big" baddies of the ruins like Druuth or the phaerimm would have learned to bypass some of the interdictions, some of the time.
-- George Krashos |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 01:09:52
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I could have sworn that there is something in "Cormanthyr" that says that if you know how or are taught, you can bypass the mythal interdictions on scrying and teleportation ...
-- George Krashos
That must be the meaning of this passage:
"Like the grand power, major powers also are permanent and constant effects within the mythal#146;s area of effect. Most major powers permeate their mythals as either amplifiers or prohibitors of certain effects, but their primary purpose is defense of the mythal-cloaked area. Major powers could be fields that don#146;t allow the city to be seen or entered by specific creatures (Myth Dyraalis in the Forest of Mir), powers that prevent scrying or teleportation into and out of the mythal (Myth Drannor), or other such defensive effects. These are not controlled by anyone, but they (with hidden
safeguards implanted during the mythal#146;s creation) can be bypassed from within the mythal, temporarily cancelling a major defense." (p. 141)
Is it reasonable that any of the major bad guys might have discovered this ability? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 04 Jan 2016 : 02:16:21
I could have sworn that there is something in "Cormanthyr" that says that if you know how or are taught, you can bypass the mythal interdictions on scrying and teleportation ...
-- George Krashos |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 04 Jan 2016 : 00:18:01
Thanks, Wooly, you've convinced me to go with that. It nerfs the heck out of some of the monsters, but it will make things interesting. :) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 04 Jan 2016 : 00:02:11
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
I have Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, The Fall of Myth Drannor, The Ruins of Myth Drannor, and Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor, so I have plenty of information on the nature of the mythal and its powers. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear in my original post.
My point is, it's the same mythal, only corrupted - other than generic (wild magic all over and dead magic zones), the "current" effects are old powers that either remained unchanged, failed or twisted (Ruins of Myth Drannor detail it more).
There's more to it than just two types of spells not working.
quote:
I'm appealing primarily to people who have either run adventures in MD, or played in them; those who can talk about their experiences in the setting and how the presence or lack of spell restrictions affected gameplay. Did it make things too hard, too easy? What was the level of the party? What were the worst challenges they faced dealing with the mythal environment? That sort of thing.
That's another question.
At a glance - this would depend on the group's style and how much GM makes things easy/hard or lets them make it easier. If they rely on dimensional door and scrying, it will be harder, of course.
Anyway, what's the point to have an adventure in mythal and not use its effects as fully as possibly? |
| valarmorgulis |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 20:27:35
I think it makes sense for the phaerimm to have access to the spell, but not the baatezu. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 16:39:48
The prohibitions go both ways... Bad guys are nerfed, but so are good guys. I have no issues with something like that, as long as it's applied equally.
The boxed set says the magic does not work, for mind-affecting stuff. So I'd assume that meant any existing magics would be negated by entering the mythal. You could argue that existing magics cast before entering the mythal would be suppressed, but that weakens that prohibition, in my opinion.
That doesn't stop nastybads from getting stooges some other way, though -- hostages, straight coercion, bribes/payment, etc.
My thinking is that if someone is in the city, they want to be there, and they're either going to not worry about losing some abilities, or they're going to find alternatives. I, myself, would limit who knows the weave mythal spell; I would expect the spell to be quite rare. Maybe a BBEG would have it, but they'd make sure no one else did, so they could make sure they didn't have to worry about certain attacks.
Besides, why even send PCs into the mythal if all the bad guys could ignore it? Sure, it puts PCs in a bad spot -- but if they don't have access to the same spell, then it gives the bad guys an advantage the PCs can't possibly counter. I'd feel rather shafted as a PC in that scenario.
As for an ability like telepathy... If the mythal blocks telepathic magics/abilities, then I think that's an across the board prohibition. It wouldn't make sense to say "you can't do it unless you do it this way" if it's a protective measure -- it would be a blanket prohibition, blocking all forms of it.
All my opinion, of course.  |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 05:57:50
Thanks, Wooly. That's my inclination as well.
What would you do about the fact that the prohibitions nerf some of the major villains in the city? Valarmorgulis suggested giving them the Weave Mythal spell, which could help. I would still face some choices in how to apply it. For example, let's say that a phaerimm uses Weave Mythal so that he can cast Dominate on a victim. He succeeds, but what happens when the Weave Mythal spell expires? Does the mythal negate the dominate effect? Or does it only block the casting of the spell, and not its effect?
Also, I can't find a 3e write up for Weave Mythal. The duration in RoMD is given as one turn. One turn is 10 rds, but the 2e rds were one minute each. I can't decide whether to make the duration 10 rds, 10 minutes, 1 minute per level, or 1 rd per level.
While it's clear to me that the mythal would suppress spell-like abilities, what about supernatural ones? I'm thinking specifically of Telepathy, which is listed in the MM as (Su), but in the Lost Empires write up of the phaerimm is listed as (Ex). It would be weird if the phaerimm could use their telepathy, but the baatezu could not, right?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 04:11:20
I've never played in Myth Drannor, but I'm a huge fan of sticking with canon -- if it was me, I'd go with the rules from the boxed set. |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 02:51:53
I have Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, The Fall of Myth Drannor, The Ruins of Myth Drannor, and Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor, so I have plenty of information on the nature of the mythal and its powers. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear in my original post.
What I was hoping for was advice on whether to run the setting with the mythal powers from RoMD, or adopt the expedient employed in PoR:AoMD and do away with most of the spell restrictions. I'm appealing primarily to people who have either run adventures in MD, or played in them; those who can talk about their experiences in the setting and how the presence or lack of spell restrictions affected gameplay. Did it make things too hard, too easy? What was the level of the party? What were the worst challenges they faced dealing with the mythal environment? That sort of thing. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 20:10:18
Let's start at the start: the original powers.
- Major: The Defense of the People. Any elf within the mythal gets a free mantle (that also provides flight).
- Major: Racial Interdicts. Prohibits entry of chromatic dragons, drow, duergar, illithids, doppelganger, ogres, goblinoids.
- Major: Scrying Interdicts. Negates all scrying, detection, location, divination, and mind-reading or influencing magics and psionics effects of the same nature. Not even locate object.
- Major: Teleportation Interdicts. Translocation effects inside or into/out of boundaries of mythal is redirected to random safe (in teleport sense) destination on the same side of the border.
- Major: Planar Magic and Psionic Augmentations. Tweaks some specific effects. Astral Spell, Banishment and Ensnarement are boosted, Drawmij's instant summons and Leomund's secret chest warped, etc. Positive and Negative channeling is negated. Psychoportation cost is halved (two random jumps at the price of one).
- Blueglow Magics. Blueglow moss is sustained and boosted into panacea.
- Everlights. Boost to non-destructive light magic and psionic control light.
- Feather Fall. On all living beings not under flight magic at the moment.
- Recharging any rechargeable magical item (Know how, hit points fueled).
- Cures. Automatic. 20% to cure disease or feeblemind every 24 hours within mythal.
- The Mythal Ghosts. Emergency out-of-body projection. Kicks in after 9 days in area and stays for an year per extra day even after leaving it.
- Mythal Movement (Know how, hit points fueled, leaves a tiny scar). Teleport within mythal.
- Mythalongevity. After living 5 years within the mythal aging stops.
- Reverie Protection (Know how). An elf in Reverie can have free ward acting like wall of force keeping away icky N'Tel'Quess (or everyone, if the user knows another password), with exclusions set at the time of activation. Collapses once the shielded elf is awake, automatically wakes up if attacked.
- Spell Absorption and Reflection (Know how).
- Spell Charges (Know how). Expand any non-prohibited spell up to 2 (arcane) or 1 (divine) level to maximum duration, damage, number of targets, automatic hit rolls.
- Weather and Nature Mediation. Never too hot, never too cold, no natural lightning strikes (mythal absorbs all this to power itself).
- ...unknown powers.
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| ErskineF |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 16:25:51
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
If I'm not mistaken there's a list of spells somewhere in the Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor adventure that uses 3.0 rules.
POR: Ruins of Myth Drannor is the video game. I have POR: Attack on Myth Drannor, which, as I said above, changes the rules for the mythal. It removes all the prohibitions on Divination and Enchantment spells, and even allows teleportation within the mythal, just not from inside the mythal to the outside, or vice versa.
Basically, the creators of that product chose to ignore the established lore on Myth Drannor, and do their own thing. One wishes they had at least retconned an explanation for it, but whatever.
They did include the wild surge and dead magic effects, but the wild surge effects are generally more favorable to the caster. (I thought I would allow the caster a Spellcraft check to see if they are able to control the spell enough to roll on the caster-friendly table, or maybe I'll just use the older table.)
I'm not sure whether their goal was to make Myth Drannor more lethal, less lethal, or just simpler to run an adventure in. The question I'm trying to figure out is whether it would be better to follow them by doing away with the prohibitions, or stick with some version of the prohibitions.
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| Diffan |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 07:59:08
If I'm not mistaken there's a list of spells somewhere in the Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor adventure that uses 3.0 rules. |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 04:51:25
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Could the monsters be using the Weave Mythal spell to use their spells normally?
That has potential. I thought I saw somewhere in the Campaign Guide that only Druuth Daern has access to that spell. I can't find that reference now though. It's not impossible that the Alhoon and Phaerimm, having been there so long, have either stolen the spell, or created their own version.
quote:
Originally posted by KentinalOne thing you need to consider is if you will be using 2nd rules, 3rd Edition rules, other rules, before you consider adjusting the encounters. The rules for the city challenge, however they also changed for the monsters and the PCs.
I'll be using 3.5. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 04:11:53
One thing you need to consider is if you will be using 2nd rules, 3rd Edition rules, other rules, before you consider adjusting the encounters. The rules for the city challenge, however they also changed for the monsters and the PCs. |
| valarmorgulis |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 03:34:01
Could the monsters be using the Weave Mythal spell to use their spells normally? |
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