| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ssendam |
Posted - 15 Jun 2015 : 15:33:36
... and The Holdfast Inn.
Hi All
I'm running a campaign where this hamlet features heavily but there is scant information on it. There is a mention of it in Volo's and in the Daggerford Adventure but as far as I know no maps/plans.
Before I go designing it myself does anyone know of any deeper resources out there on this settlement? A map of the hamlet and a plan for the inn would be good.
The only thing I can think of is that I think it is in a Bio-ware game so there may be plans there?
:-) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Aug 2019 : 22:10:04
quote:
Originally posted by ChoucrouteGarnieDu42
Ultraquick post, I'm still in the thick of it but I haven't forgotten my promise. Whether in a month or in a year I'll see it done!
Markus seems to go through cycles of being very active here, then not visiting for months at a time. He's currently in the latter phase of that cycle. |
| ChoucrouteGarnieDu42 |
Posted - 09 Aug 2019 : 19:22:15
Ultraquick post, I'm still in the thick of it but I haven't forgotten my promise. Whether in a month or in a year I'll see it done! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 15:49:21
No worries - like I said, I'm busy with other stuff ATM (doing 'historical era' maps for FR). I still want to finish this, but I needed this time-away anyhow.
Cheers |
| ChoucrouteGarnieDu42 |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 15:15:19
Heyyo boys! Things are still crazy on my side, but I don't forget my promise! Going back into the fray as soon as able (let's say around early/mid-September). See ya! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 May 2017 : 18:25:08
Cool, Thank You for the heads-up. I've put the Daggerford stuff on the back-burner for now, so that works out perfect.
See you then.  |
| ChoucrouteGarnieDu42 |
Posted - 13 May 2017 : 07:26:27
(A lil' short of time right now, I'll get back to the cartography early July buddy boys!). |
| LordXenophon |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 15:27:45
I think that's pretty much what the place is supposed to be. The tavern, I mean. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 17:14:12
Well, then - I could just spin it as a temple to Saint Dionysius, but in reality its actually a front for mask/the thieves. It would be a great way for them to 'hide in plain sight' (which they are obviously doing right there).
I doubt Dionysius would care much - just pay him some lip-serving and serve booze and he's good. 
EDIT:
Now you have me thinking about a tavern of sorts, above a temple to Mask, which is also the thieves guild, and of course, considering all the trade and nearby river, you have tunnels that lead to the river's edge downstream (maybe near or under the bridge?) for smuggling.
Heck, if I REALLY wanted to go nuts, we could just say there never really was a Saint Dionysius (slightly re-writing Krash's lore on the subject) - Mask took on that persona in order to do things like this. Drunks and thieves - they go together. 
He's called 'Mask' for a reason. |
| LordXenophon |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 14:32:37
The name is a reference to the hole in the top of a keg. I don't know about the "abbey" part. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 07:31:38
Thanks for the info.
I would imagine it should have some sort of shrine (to Mask) in it, unless the name is supposed to be a joke.
Oh, and I do have maps for about half the settlements in the Realms - you'd be surprised. I chalk the contradictions up to 'changes over time' (if you think of them as 'in-game', maybe some maps are few decades out of date). |
| LordXenophon |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 05:27:46
I have never found any official maps for most towns in the realms. Small towns don't really need them, unless you intend to have a major battle in the middle of Main Street.
Even if you did find official maps, they tend not to be consistant. I have several different maps of Baldur's Gate, for example, all with major contraditions in the size of the city and the locations of the major buildings - one doesn't even have the Wide.
What most DM's do is just draw up a map and make that the official map for their campaign.
Now, if you want an ultra-nasty version of the wraith of Liam himself, augmented with Van Richten's Guide to Ghosts, so you can turn Liam's Hold into your own version of Sleepy Hollow, I have you covered.
Stop Hole Abbey isn't a temple, by the way. It's the guild hall of the thieves' guild. If there's a shrine in it, it's probably to Mask.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Apr 2017 : 22:07:46
Nothing new, ChoucrouteGarnieDu42?
I was hoping to get some more info about the town itself, and mostly the "Stop Hole Abbey" - the other two temples have the god's name on them, but I don't know what deity that one is dedicated to, if any.
Any and all help would be appreciated (if anyone else has this old game - I may have to get it myself to finish this). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Mar 2017 : 19:43:52
I am going to continue this conversation over in the new Daggerford thread I created - we've gone WAY off topic here. Plus, I needed to post my Daggerford map, and a link to it, for this discussion, and you can find that there.
Also, I want ChoucrouteGarnieDu42 to post more stuff about Darkness over Daggerford, which the thread should be about. I wanna see more screenshots and maps! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Mar 2017 : 16:30:34
I just read on this site that the draft of a coaster is only about 5' - that means that they could theoretically pass over a ford at the town itself, but nothing larger than that. Even a cog should be able to make it, and Norse-type ships would have no problem.
The ship I was actually looking at was the Royal Clipper when designing my bridge - I figure if I took the largest sailing ship in the world as a base, everything else could make it through. The draft on that is 18.5 feet, and I allowed 20' deep water under normal conditions (it might have trouble in a dry season).
So, ummmm... yeah. THAT monster could dock at Daggerford, even without me doubling the size of my bridge.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Mar 2017 : 16:21:15
Some of that adventure (and accompanying maps) were based on stuff Erik Boyd and I did in the Under Illefarn Anew project, which was set in the 2e era but used 3e rules, IIRC.
So you'd think I'd use it as a resource... but I didn't. I assume a 'choke point' where the bridge is, either natural or artificial. There was probably an 'old ford' there in 'olden times', before the marsh started to overtake that area (assume here that the marsh reached an unprecedented size for a time, and then receded as things 'normalized'). THE ford being 'at the town' itself makes the most sense - picture a sandbar probably around halfway on the town map, just below the surface where silt collects (and needs to be occasionally dredged). This allows both river-barge and sea-ship traffic on the two ends of town (barges, of course, could go all the way to the sea, and some might even be 'coasters' and travel directly to Waterdeep or even Baldur's Gate. Anything further would be a little nuts, especially in storm season. Some barges might even be able to pass under the bridge unhindered (perhaps they have a way of lowering their masts?), and small boats could probably do so all the time (anything larger than a yacht might have trouble in the rainy season).
I'm going to have to rethink a few things - I always took the pictures on the maps as 'representational', and not 'true-to-scale' I hadn't even considered the bridge size on that map, because I was mostly referencing larger maps, where the river-line WOULD BE purely representational. I have the bridge a mere 40' across, which require two 60' long slabs - general rule-of-thumb in building codes is that when extending anything out past the foundation (or bearing wall) of a structure, supports (weight-bearing beams, etc) must be twice the length INSIDE the existing structure; in other words, if 20' sticks out (on both sides), 40' must be buried in the bank there. This is what gives it all its strength and support (baring magical stuff, which I am trying to avoid).
Even if I double it - which is getting a little nuts, thats still merely 80", but thats close enough to the 100' to be able to say it is a choke-point there in the river. I suppose I'll have to go that route - I'm already assuming some sort of 'special stone of unknown origin' for the two slabs - we see that elsewhere with other dwarven bridges. Apparently they have some 'art' at hardening stone, or treating it with runes, or perhaps its just something naturally occurring in the Underdark that surface dwellers are unaware of. They may no longer know how to make or find that stuff (which could be an adventure unto itself - finding a map or the 'formula' in some ancient dwarven ruin).
Despite how the bridge looks on that map (as I said, its 'just a picture' as far as I'm concerned), a drawbridge requires towers, and there are four, two on either side of the river, which are connected in pairs (so more like archways). The towers aren't very large - 14' square and 30' high, with a top with crenelations, and there are three 'floors'; two actually, the lowest floor is just for the machinery, and the largest. most people would never see the interior of the towers - they are for the maintenance crews, who also maintain a lookout at the tops of the towers to open the bridge. Each tower can comfortably house 4 people in a living environment - they are heated, and have are stocked with some supplies, in case of an attack they can hold out for a few weeks if need be. However, under normal circumstance, only two men stay in each tower most of the time, being relieved by people in town. The two take turns being the lookout for ships coming upriver from the coast. Normally, ships leaving the Daggerford docks are scheduled, and they try to schedule them in groups so the bridge only needs operate about once per day. This means the lookout only need to keep an eye in the one direction. They also serve the duel purpose of keeping an eye on the nearby marsh.
I just now realized while typing this that river HAD TO be fairly wide, to allow ships to pass each other. Uh-DOH! So much to think about to do a simple bridge. The river widens into a small lake around Dagerford before continuing (sluggishly) further to the coast.
And another 'kewl factor' about all this - ships would literally be passing over and through the ruins of Tavaray in the swamp. It would be like that scene in Game of thrones where Tyrion and Jorah pass through Valyria.
There are two separate links there, in case you didn't notice. Wish i could have found something longer/better, but it IS an HBO property. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 30 Mar 2017 : 10:16:01
I also had a think about the old ford and if it would be possible for it to still operate with ships passing over it... but I don't think so.
The North's Daggerford map shows large caravel-sized ships docked nearby, which can have drafts of 5 feet or so - deeper than any ford deemed passable as far as I'm aware. I think for this to work (ie. for ocean-going ships to be able to navigate over the old ford), either the river level has to have risen enough for the ford to be impassable by land, or it has to have been dredged.
An alternative would be to say that the old ford is about 2' deep, and some vessels with small drafts can still travel over it if they're careful. Obviously such a thing would remain impassable for wagons, and it would also exclude any larger ships. Alternatively you could make it even lower so a wagon could pass safely over it, but then you're definitely not getting ships through. So, not loving these options.
For my own purposes I'm inclined to say the old ford was dredged to allow ship passage, and go with the drawbridge approach.
I imagine a bridge would have been built as soon as a goodly number of people wanted to travel by wagon between Waterdeep/Daggerford and the south, and it makes sense that it would have been after Tyndal's little adventure, as otherwise he would have used the bridge! So as to that, I guess we're looking at a date for building the bridge for somewhere after 931 DR, and likely after the beginning of the building of Castle Daggerford in 947 DR. Timing it to the Dragonspear War could still work, but I have a feeling trade would have necessitated building it as early as possible, and I'm betting on it being built by the first Dukes of Daggerford in the mid-late 900s. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 30 Mar 2017 : 04:21:39
Awesome! Sounds badass.
As a side-thought that shouldn't interfere with the above but might help supplement it, I've been wondering how wide the Delimbiyr is. I can't find any sources on it outside of the maps, so I aligned the N5, The North - GttSF, and SotSC maps to get a feeling of scale. Surprisingly, for once the scale stays the same over multiple maps, which is nice!
On all the maps, the width of the Delimbiyr at the bridge is depicted to be about 100' (and about 150' from the town's walls, for reference - so actually quite close). Although the N5 map depicts the river's width to be consistent at about 100' throughout the area, the map in The North doesn't depict the other bank, and the SotSC map has the river widen to the east, to about 200' wide directly south of the town. I actually think the SotSC map is the best representation.
The more you describe the drawbridge, the more I like it, but the ford remains a complicating factor for river-travel, unless we say the ford is only passable on foot when the river is low (either seasonally or only in the past). We still have that SotSC quote to deal with:
quote:
The Delimbiyr River becomes shallow at Daggerford (thus the ford in its name), so boat traffic from the east has to stop. This traffic meets with caravans traveling north or south on the Trade Way.
One way to potentially solve it is to say that boats can travel over the "old ford" (Volo's words) just east of the bridge - perhaps the river has risen a bit since Tyndal's time, or perhaps it was partially dredged - but the river is still so shallow at that point that it's too dangerous to sail over unless experienced Daggerford hands guide you through the stretch. You'd also need Daggerford to raise the drawbridge for you to pass. Hence, you have to stop.
Perhaps the town might levy a tax on any goods passing through, and so force boats to stop just before the shallows of the 'old ford', allowing members of the militia to board the boat to inspect its goods (and charge an appropriate tax). Once the tax is paid, a Daggerford sailor guides the vessel through the shallows (a helping hand that isn't necessary for many veteran sailors, but Daggerford enforces the "help" as another excuse for their tax) and signals for the drawbridge to be raised.
Edit:
If it helps, both maps depict the bridge as being about 50' wide and about 150' long from start to finish, with 100' of that length being over the river.
Edit 2:
And for anyone's random interest, the Delimbiyr is implied to be much wider at other places along its length - it's described as being a "mere 160 feet" across at Julkoun due to artificial embankments, implying it's much wider elsewhere.
Regardless of any of this, I get the impression that there isn't much traffic on the river west of Daggerford during the D&D Next era of the 1480s (though I still think our efforts are worth it). Perhaps the lizardfolk of the Marsh have impeded travel there - Ghosts of Dragonspear described a group of evil lizardfolk active there alongside the benign ones, allied with a black dragon called Thoss Fyurnen (Sun Swallower). This could be another reason the drawbridge isn't described as a drawbridge - because no one uses it these days, as there's a black dragon downriver. At a guess from its stats (I didn't play D&D Next, and I'm not familiar with it), it's probably a young adult. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Mar 2017 : 03:32:23
By George (Krashos), I think I've got it! The only thing I was still having trouble with was the motive force to turn the four giant gears (the huge stone slabs are slotted on the bottom where the gears can grab them and roll it forward; on the bottom, because if they were on the top of the slab, facing the sky, dirt would collect in them and eventually cause the whole thing to lock-up). Routine maintenance, of course, would still be required (which is why the darn thing didn't work for a few centuries).
So anyhow, here I am thinking about teams of dwarves, and arcane golems, and even having the machinery itself me a magical automaton... and then it hit me! It was literally staring me right in the face the whole time! Water! the water FLOWS.
Even if it does so sluggishly, it still has a current, and thus, has energy we can harness. Not only have I solved this (vents can be opened which would allow water to flow past fins, water-wheel style, which would turn gears, which would turn bigger gears, etc.), I think it would actually function in the RW. It gets locked into place when the two halves touch, and then they just throw another leaver and gravity has them slide right back down to their resting position (most of the time the thing would be left in the 'closed' position, so the 'stone bridge' would always seem to be there... until a large ship comes upriver). Also, there would be some sort of natural (friction) 'breaking' system to slow it down. its only a 5ŗ angle, but we still can't have 100 tons of stone slamming back into the embankment). There'd also be ball bearings or 'rollers' on the slope in case gravity alone isn't up to the task (once again, 100 tons has a LOT of inertia).
After drawing quite a bit of it and laying everything out, I actually think I could build a working model of this thing.
I understand enough engineering principles (I was in construction my whole life) to understand stuff like stress points, fulcrums, weight bearing, etc, etc. Man, I wish I was an ancient Roman right now - I'd build the coolest stuff.
Taking a break now, and then I have to do real work tomorrow (building a laundry room at my son's house... how boring), so Probably won't have a finished version of the drawing to show until the weekend (mostly because I still think I can animate it with a GIF). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Mar 2017 : 01:26:58
Well, since you just said 'keen to see' I'll get back to it. I had gotten so far, and realized how overly complicated even a 'small stone version' would have to be, and just went on to something else.
But I'm glad you are interested, because it was a cool mental exercise, coming up with a completely stone variant of a draw bridge that a dwarf would make (which included twin 60' long x 20' wide by 2' thick stone slabs that slid-out from beneath two arches on either side.
I was even going to animate it, just for poops & giggles.
Figuring out how the engineering aspect worked was also fun, but it still needs some sort of motive force - even perfectly balance/weighted levers & pulleys would be hard pressed to move what amounts to about a 100 tons of stone. Thanks to a sleight incline, gravity helps it quickly move out of the way - you don't want to have a ship accident because a lookout was relieving himself for a few minutes.
I was thinking about having it slope the other way (downward), but not only would that provide NO strength (and defy logic support-wise), it would also use up some valuable room where smaller boats could simply slip underneath without the bridge going up. Still, I liked the idea of being able to quickly pull a few 'pins' and the two stones slam together on a ship (of raiders, for instance). It does make a formidable obstacle when its closed, though.
The other idea I had was for a bridge built across two hilltops, or having a dirt ramp on either side like a causeway, but that would go against the lore about their being a ford there (seriously, how the heck didn't anyone ever catch that? I bridge over a river that SHIPS use, at the same spot as a ford people can walk across? making one or two of those things work together is feasible, but not all of it - either you were 'high up' for the bridge, or you were'low down' for the ford - you can't have it both ways. the ford implies flat ground around there (yes, there could have been a zig-zagging path down a steep embankment to get to the rivers edge and use the ford.. but we are talking about a MAJOR trade road - possibly THE most important/used trade road in Faerūn).
Having the bridge non-functonional and partially in the swamp a century or two ago allows us to 'fudge' lore that says the bridge is new. However, its just as easy - although not as interesting - to say the bridge was built at the time of the Dragonspear war. Not any dwarves (that I know of) living around there then, but there's always plenty further north, and in Waterdeep itself, and if there's one things dwarves love more than killing orcs, its building stuff and making money. This might be the simpler way to go, considering we already have several 'ancient, amazing dwarf bridges' around the Realms in other spots (including one that comes with its own cadre of dwarf ghost warriors!)
EDIT:
And I've had THIS SONG stuck in my head now all day (except instead of 'Billy Joe McCallister' I've been singing it as 'Bruenor Battlehammer'). |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 29 Mar 2017 : 23:37:32
Hah, yeah but these sidetreks occasionally yield gold!
As far as location goes, we know exactly where the bridge is thanks to the maps. Daggerford was built where it was because it was built on the ruins of Morlin Castle, but the ford is surely quite close (and to the east of the bridge from the sound of the SotSC writeup).
As far as population growth goes, Daggerford grows by 33% in the lost century (900-1200) from memory. Perhaps more could be expected with it being a trade hub, but who knows what's happened over that length of time. IIRC anyone that stays in Daggerford more than a short duration has to serve in the militia, which might discourage people moving there (as opposed to THE trade hub of Waterdeep not far away).
A drawbridge having always been there (in various states of disrepair) could work well enough, and it would make more sense than just blocking off the river entirely. Still not sure how I feel about saying the bridge was always a drawbridge, but keen to see what you come up with.
Edit: Have also reached out to ELB in his thread to see if he has anything to share. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Mar 2017 : 19:38:30
I can't believe I overlooked the most obvious problem - the current. 
Unless the current was particularly sluggish, sailing 'upriver' would be rough. With the widening/shallowing of the river over the past couple of centuries (that I surmised above), this might actually be the case. Still, at the times when the river is deepest - and therefor able to handle the largest 'drafts' of vessels - is also when the current would be the most profound, and hard to overcome. However, the lore does say the river is navigable to boat traffic in both directions, so it probably is a wide, lazy river. In fact, where the bridge is should be the narrowest (and therefor deepest) 'choke point' in the river.
I had only come to realize this as I am designing what I see as a workable solution for ALL the lore (based on that last thing I theorized above). Even though it supports an argument for 'auxilary docks and loading cranes' west of the bridge, I thought it a fair point to mention, and I also think the short distance involved (a few miles, tops) isn't going to make all that much difference, in regards to how slow the current is (especially since we can clearly see the river widens AT Daggerford, which is where it would slow down the most).
The river also widened quite a bit during the Return of the Archwizards novel series (the lowest parts of Daggerford were completely underwater!), but that should have all resolved itself by the end of that series (when the weather was righted).
If I am right about other things - the gradual warming of the climate and melting of the glaciers in the past 2-300 years (1-200 from the 3e time period) - then there should actually be less water (run-off) for the river now then in the past, which further supports my theory that it went from a narrow, fast river to a wide, shallow one over the course of a thousand years. Of course, with the 5e 'reset' of the geography, i am not even sure about the condition of all the glaciers anymore (for example, it seems the 'High Ice' in Anauroch returned in the 5e era, which makes little sense to me, since that had nothing to do with 4e - it was already disappearing, and should have done so by now naturally).
On the other hand, if the glaciers were returned to an even earlier state, like pre-ToT (which makes a LOT of sense, story-wise), than they could have even been returned to a time a right around when Vassa was first uncovered from the Ice (in which case, I'd still love to see Ed's original maps for that region - its one of the few pieces I am missing). Like maybe how Vassa was during that story with Melegaunt Tanthul - the year was 1269 DR - and the whole place was like one vast, cold marshland.
But more likely, the world would have been reset to the way the geography was at the start of 1e, because that's right around the time the Dark Chronology would have kicked-in, which sent the world spiraling down a side-path of dark prophesy.
BOY, does my brain get side-tracked... I just wanted to figure-out a bridge!  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Mar 2017 : 16:48:57
Did you click on the link to a pic of a drawbridge I posted above? it doesn't have to be that big. Perhaps only the non-mobile parts are made of stone (probably being built by dwarves), or maybe dwarves figured out how to do a drawbridge made entirely of stone?
I did suggest the alternative - a 'weigh station' type of setup with some smaller docks over near the caravan grounds (and just west of the bridge), but once again, thats sub-optimal - the town would definitely grow to encompass it, and that would start happening almost immediately after that situation became a thing; smart merchants building shops and warehouses right there, and within a few years wanting their independence from Daggerford - something Daggerford would do everything in its power to prevent. Although that all works, its overly-complicated, creates a potential disastrous political situation, and still begs the question - why was the town EVER built to the east of the road, when clearly the best spot for transfer of goods was right there, AT THE ROAD. Settlements today are planned, but 'back in the ye old days' they just happened, and they happened for reasons. Daggerford doesn't make sense where it is unless ships can get to it from both directions (and the lore does say the town was built AT the ford, so then why is the ford also about a half mile away to the west?) Thus, building a bridge that would STOP ship traffic from coming in from the sea, just to have it carted in wagons to the town from a different spot (where a town WOULD spring up, creating a rival for Daggerford), makes no sense.
We are throwing simple logic out the window for a throw-away line from a sourcebook... written by designers who are 'only human', and have proven themselves fallible over and over again. IDEALLY, the whole setting should have advanced a century, but instead they are too frightened to even make logical changes at this point. Daggerford should have continued to grow into a city - like the guide books suggest - and by the late 1400's we should not even be discussing this problem, because the city would have overgrown its walls and BE a sprawling mess on BOTH sides of the river AND all the way past that bridge (which would then be INSIDE the town proper... like it always should have been). Seriously - Do you have any idea how much trade simply passes them by? Why not control the roads and collect taxes? None of that makes any sense UNLESS the spot where the town is is OPTIMAL, which means UNIMPEDED ship traffic in both directions (with a shallow, sandbar-ish situation going on in the middle... which also should have been cleared by the late 1400's, and CHAINS be set across, like RW cities did).
if they decide to do another AP based around Daggerford - the way they did the Neverwinter one - they should get Erik Boyd to work all this stuff out and do the history bits (since he already has 95% of that done), and upgrade Daggerford to the city status it SHOULD have in the 1490's, and then we have options - either the drawbridge (which should have been there circa 1370's), or have some docks and cargo cranes over near the bridge (which would then be 'part of the town' at that point). What we really need is THAT upgrade which they are too scared to do ("Changes bad! 4e Bad!"), so in the meantime, as far as I'm concerned, they have some weird, sliding, stone drawbridge there, built by the dwarves of Dardath of old (who traded with Tavaray, and were one of the groups that were part of the Fallen Kingdom).
Suggested 'Fix':
The bridge was ALWAYS there, since those early days (about a millennia ago, so even at the time of Athalantar) - the 'ford' that existed then would have been the seasonal one where Daggerford now stands. When they say "the ford is still there, 'next to' the bridge", they are simply taking poetic license, since the ford is actually at the town proper, a short distance away (on a map of Faerūn, that distance would be unnoticeable and irrelevant). The bridge may have been 'out of service' for some time, because of the marshes (lizardfolk, etc.) and the fall of Tavaray (and Dardath, and just about every other nearby kingdom), which would have forced folks to use the ford. Being that there was an ancient keep already at THAT site, the town sprang up THERE, rather than by the road, with the bridge that was now right inside the edge of the growing (hazardous) marshlands.
Perhaps the bridge was even 'stuck open' back then, some 200 years ago, and it was repaired at the time of the first Dragonspear wars? I am going to try and illustrate that (being more of a 'mechanical drawing', I think I can handle it). That would mean as far as anyone was concerned, there was no bridge there at that time - they may have even thought it collapsed in the middle, when really, the two massive slabs of stone were just 'stuck' in the open position. that could fix everything, me thinks. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 29 Mar 2017 : 06:13:31
To try and work from the most recent lore in SotSC, we have a river that becomes shallower at Daggerford (the ford), plus the low stone bridge over the river, next to the old ford. I presume the bridge is there because the ford is only passable on foot at certain times of year, if at all.
It seems to me that the easiest explanation is to say that sea-going vessels can make it to Daggerford, at which point they need to transfer their goods to other vessels to go the rest of the way. By this way of thinking, Waterdeep & the North just got one thing wrong.
A better but more complex explanation might be that the river was navigable all the way from the mouth to Shining Falls in Mirtul of 1357 DR (the time of Waterdeep & the North), but only when the river was deep enough over the ford (say, from autumn to spring). Then, a bridge was built by the time of the Volo's Guide (1360s) to deal with the fact that the ford was only traversable by land in summer, when the river was low. Previously folk and armies would have had to use barges maintained by the locals outside of the summer months.
Building the bridge in the early 1360s (or even mid-late 1350s) makes sense, as it times to the Dragonspear Wars, a time where there would have been a lot of traffic over the bridge - and a high demand for such an artifice.
Edit: The first Dragonspear War saw Waterdhavian troops in the south for over two years according to the OGB (likely 1354-1356 plus some cleanup in 1357), and it could have been during this time that the bridge started being built. Or it could after been after, as Waterdeep desired to be prepared for a second war, if one should come. In any case, construction wrapping up anytime after Mirtul 1357 (W&tN) and before 1366 (VGttSC) works well.
Such a low stone bridge as is mentioned in SotSC would serve the folk of Daggerford quite well, in that it would force vessels to stop and change boats - which are maintained by the locals - even when the river is high enough for boats to safely travel over the ford. A drawbridge would work well too, but it feels a little bit more like cheating to me, as I feel it would have been mentioned in the lore if it was there. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Mar 2017 : 05:12:34
Yes, the whole problem revolves around the bridge being too small to allow traffic under it, and a working ford to be able to allow such ships to pass.
However, we could use the 'seasonal' angle and tweak a few things. Suppose the original ford was where the town is, or more likely, just upriver from it. Like maybe right at the eastern edge of town. That means ship traffic would have to stop at the town, being able to go no further. Barge traffic, however, could takeover, and navigate the shallow river the rest of the way. So goods must be transferred at Daggerford, which makes lots of sense.
Slightly further west we run into a problem. Lets say there was a second, seasonal ford there, but thats not really the ford that the town was named after (the two were confused with each other over the years), so 'Tyndal's Bridge' may be the site where he fought some Lizardmen, but the older ford still exists a mile or so to the east. This crossing became more famous, and got the bridge, because of the road going through, but before the bridge, it would not have been usable in the spring, during the thaws (when rivers run much higher).
Now, the river was probably more passable in the past, because we have some lore that it was, and we also had the busy trade-city of Tavaray sitting right there where the marsh now is. The existence of the marsh - and its previous non-existence - leads me to believe that silt carried downstream over the years lead to the last few miles of river becoming 'clogged' (perhaps because of the ruins of Tavaray, which should sit astride the formerly deep river's path). so although that lead to there being several good spots to cross in later years, it also meant the sea-going traffic that used to be able to use the river no longer can.
I see two solutions. The simplest one would be to say that the bridge has been built high enough to accommodate sailing vessels, OR, it is a drawbridge, operated and maintained by Daggerford. This second one makes the most sense, given the fact the 5e lore mentions the bridge (and describes it somewhat, without fixing the conundrum), and it surely doesn't sound like some massive structure. And because we have dwarves, gnomes, wizards, etc., a drawbridge isn't a stretch at all, and we could easily have the more modern 'two leaf' variety (or even something more exotic, like one that slides back into itself - something gnomes or dwarves could have come up with).
A third solution, which I only like because it keeps the bridge and everything else 'intact', BUT adds a lot of extra lore, is that Daggerford maintains an 'outpost' of sorts on the western side of the bridge, with more docks, and that allows merchants to transfer goods to wagons and get carted to Daggerford not far away. This may seem silly, but they already maintain a 'caravan grounds' right in that same area, so some auxiliary docks to go with those caravans isn't such a leap. However, this begs the qustion - why the hell isn't the town straddling the road and the bridge, and have docks on BOTH sides to accommodate both types of shipping? Was that old, ruined castle really that important to have built the whole town in the sub-optimal spot?
Plus, I already plan to add an 'outpost' of the town on the south side of the river, because of the Video games lore, and having pieces of the city all over the place like that is making Daggerford turn into a sprawling mess (which, I suppose, some day it would turn into anyway... if things worked in the Realms like they do RW... which strangely, they don't.
So we have to assume Daggerford IS the optimal spot, and that both types of shipping ARE accommodated there, one to each side of a 'sand bar' situation (where the old ford was). There is not second set of docks to the west (by the caravan grounds), and there is no honking huge 'sky bridge'. Just a drawbridge... which the designers keep forgetting to mention. There is also another ford - the one where Tyndal had his fight, but it was only shallow enough for crossing in the dry, summer months. Daggerford now makes some effort to keep the channel clear, even during times when the river is running low.
To that end, they've started a project to clear away some of the debris (once again, possibly the sunken ruins of Tavaray), which would cause the river to flow swifter as it did in times past, cutting its own deeper channel as it once was, and stopping the spread of the swamp (note that i think it was this 'clogging' that caused the marsh to grow there in the first place, with silt piling up against the sunken Tavaray ruins - it makes sense in the timeline that one thing caused the other). Eventually, the hope is that the river will run clear from the shining falls all the way to sea, as it did in centuries past (at which point, Daggerford may consider putting chains across the river to enforce its control/taxes of the river traffic).
Of course, the lizardfolk are quite happy with things the way they are (as are their yuan-ti masters*), and will make every effort to keep the old river bed clogged, going as far as attacking any engineers (and their adventurer-bodyguards) from trying to clear it. I smell a gaming session or three...
*My assumption here is that with all this going on, and the amount of traffic Daggerford gets - both foot/wagon and ship - it would greatly interest the 'scaly powers that be', and that marsh makes a nice mid-point outpost for the reptyl presence in the Serpent Hills (just on the other side of the high moor... which is riddled with underground passages) and the Mere of Dead Men to the north of Waterdeep, which does have Yuan-ti (who watch the goings on of Neverwinter to the north, and Waterdeep to the south). In fact, if you want to turn this whole storyline into an AP, you could have some history saying it was the Serpent kingdoms that brought Tavaray low, purposely creating the marsh to be used as an outpost of theirs. You could involve the elves as well (they had a major 'secret port' just to the south they may have wanted to remain secret, for the Retreat), but if it were me, I wouldn't, because the elves have their hands in everything and it would be nice if some other race caused a calamity... even if it was highly localized. But Illefarn was RIGHT THERE... and the High moor is covering the lost kingdom of Miyeritar... its your call. We also have fiends in Castle Dragonspear nearby (always a fun 'night on the town' for adventurers). And the hags of the Trollbark and Hagwood... sounds like a heluva party. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 28 Mar 2017 : 04:18:32
Regarding the ford, apparently in the D&D Next era (1480s) both it and the bridge exist, as in VGtN, and the ford "forces traffic to stop":
quote:
From Scourge of the Sword Coast
Despite its small size, Daggerford is an important hub for trade. The Delimbiyr River becomes shallow at Daggerford (thus the ford in its name), so boat traffic from the east has to stop. This traffic meets with caravans traveling north or south on the Trade Way.
The same source also gives a brief description of the bridge, repeated here (because I know many on this site don't have this source).
quote:
Approaching Daggerford from the south, visitors cross Tyndal Bridge, a low stone structure named after the hero of a local legend that tells about the founding of the town. A boy named Tyndal supposedly fought off lizardfolk at the ford using only a dagger, hence the name of the settlement. Darfin Floshin knows this tale is no legend. He can remember when Tyndal, having grown to manhood and married the daughter of the areas ruler, took the title of duke and built Daggerford atop the ruins of an earlier castle.
The Cyclopedia of the Realms mentions the ford as a safe crossing at the time it was found, but then Waterdeep and the North says that the Delimbiyr is navigable from its mouth to Shining Falls. Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast mentions the bridge across the river, and says the "old ford" is still there beside the bridge.
My best guess after all this revolves around the idea of a narrow channel being dredged through the ford. That would mean the old ford has become impassable on foot (though still largely present), and thus the bridge is needed. It also allows sea-going traffic to pass through the channel, which allows all of the old sources to be true.
As far as the ford in the time of SotSC goes, the language in that source isn't actually all that specific, it just says boats have to "stop". Perhaps this doesn't mean they have to stop permanently, and there is still a narrow channel. Maybe that channel is heavily controlled by the militia, and boats have to dock and pay dues before moving on. Or perhaps the channel through the ford simply collapsed somewhere in the "lost century", and now boats can't travel past it anymore.
Just floating ideas mainly, but I like the idea of Daggerford exacting taxes on those that wish to sail up and down the river, forcing them to stop in town (and buy things).
Edit: Though the bridge being a "low stone structure" makes it even less likely boats still pass under it in the SotSC era, so perhaps boats can't pass Daggerford post-Spellplague.
Edit 2: Maybe it always made sense for boats to not be coming in from the sea, due to Lizard Marsh as Markustay suggested above. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 28 Mar 2017 : 03:39:33
Mystra's Dance is also featured in "Elminster: The Making of a Mage".
-- George Krashos |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Mar 2017 : 16:45:34
Just checked the Volo's Guide and t says the old ford is still there, right next to a bridge. That just confounds the problem.
I've been thinking on re-working Daggerford for 5e, combining all the stuff for the area (basically updating Erik's Illefarn project, map-wise, to 5e), and including all the material from the VG (I always try to make whatever video games sites I can work within the greater context of FR - no sense in tossing out good lore). This is why I am asking so many questions in this thread - so that when I get to this area with my FR mapping project (which I hope to get back to very soon), I can provide references and small entries cyclopedia-style on them.
If it were me, I'd say Daggerford dredged the river to make it deeper (hired mages or dwarves), which eliminated the ford, and they made that a drawbridge (and perhaps collect tolls, although they could easily cover that with taxes on ships docking at Daggerford proper). You can't really have both - a ford AND sea-going traffic - on the same river (unless its seasonal, but even then, that's kinda 'iffy').
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Whats this about the first temple of mystra. Where is that mentioned?
Its called 'Mystra's Dance', but I can't seem to find which source its from. It was in my old notes, ut I don't have those anymore, sadly.
I just checked the pertinent Volo's Guide, so its not in there, so maybe something like the Magister or Seven Sisters books (possibly even in PftF or PftM)? I'd hope Erik comes along with the info, but he's so busy with a new job I doubt it. Maybe Krash has the info as well?
You know what... the coffee just kicked-n... give me a sec...
EDIT:
Dragon Magazine @228, which of course is a treasure-trove of FR lore because of Ed's article, The Athalantan Campaign. Its at the very top/beginning of pg37. Also mentioned nearby is the rich citystate of Tavaray, now sunken into the marsh (which wasn't there then), just before that on pg.36. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 27 Mar 2017 : 10:06:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'll have to check my notes on the matter, but when I looked at some unfinished maps I had been working on as part of the Under illefarn Anew project, I had a bridge going across the river as well, and I 'think' (maybe) a bridge was built later at the site of the ford where Tyndal did his thing.
Its still doesn't explain the boats. I could swear Erik and I had a discussion about all that, but I can't recall what was decided - perhaps the boats are only 'river boats', and travel up and down stream on the river shining, and don't go any further than Daggerford (so they aren't sea vessels... even though every single artist has depicted them as such). Plus, a sea-going vessel would have to sail through the Lizard marsh, and that ought to be rough (plus there was ancient - as in 'THE first' - temple of Mystra on a small island in the river mouth that has since sunk into the marsh there).
I'm pretty sure the Delimbiyr is navigable by sea-going boats as far as Shining Falls. Perhaps there was a ford there in Tyndal's time, but eventually it was dredged to allow boat travel to and from Ammarindar Loudwater and Gray Vale.
Edit: Forgot Tyndal dates to post-Ammarindar. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Mar 2017 : 08:38:34
Whats this about the first temple of mystra. Where is that mentioned? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Mar 2017 : 08:35:38
I'll have to check my notes on the matter, but when I looked at some unfinished maps I had been working on as part of the Under illefarn Anew project, I had a bridge going across the river as well, and I 'think' (maybe) a bridge was built later at the site of the ford where Tyndal did his thing.
Its still doesn't explain the boats. I could swear Erik and I had a discussion about all that, but I can't recall what was decided - perhaps the boats are only 'river boats', and travel up and down stream on the river shining, and don't go any further than Daggerford (so they aren't sea vessels... even though every single artist has depicted them as such). Plus, a sea-going vessel would have to sail through the Lizard marsh, and that ought to be rough (plus there was ancient - as in 'THE first' - temple of Mystra on a small island in the river mouth that has since sunk into the marsh there).
The 'Blade cliffs' area looks to fall out near the site of another ancient elven ruin - the Seatower of Ilinyth, so it might be a good idea to combine the lore (many elves left for Evermeet using the small, secretive docks there, in centuries past). Perhaps the cave complex is all thats left of the sub-cellars of that place.
Thanks for all the info. |
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