| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 03:44:16
So I just came across the concept of Elven High Magic. I'd heard about it (it's plot-level magic that has had huge unintended side-effects almost every time it's been used). I was wondering how do people portray this in their games?
I understand under 2e it had it's own rules and 3e it was largely synonymous with Epic Magic. However with 4th edition and 5th edition it seems like high level ritual magic would be a good way to represent it. So here's a question: How do you make it exciting? In 3e/4e/5e it seems like it would ultimately come down to a skill check (OR it just works, cross off the expended material components). Does it need to be anything more? Is it good enough to say "If you obtain all of the required material components, satisfy all other conditions such as location and time, then it simply works"? Is that "epic" enough with most of the excitement coming from obtaining all of the required components? Is it simply a DM's job to describe it in an evocative way as to make it exciting?
Another route could be a skill challenge (the 4e route) or a group skill check (from the 3.5e Unearthed Arcana or the 5th edition core rules)? Again, making it exciting by describing how it happens?
For those who've had high elven magic portrayed in their games, how did you do it? |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 01 Oct 2015 : 14:20:31
The Cormanthyr expansion. It was the second of 2e's Arcane Age expansions, dealing with important realms of the past. The first was Netheril, which was of uneven quality. Cormanthyr was one of 2e's strongest products. |
| xmaxx |
Posted - 01 Oct 2015 : 12:34:55
Where can I find info about this for the 2nd ed? |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 01 Oct 2015 : 08:02:08
This is all quite belated but I wanted to thank everyone for their contributions. Here's my take on the Mythal Seed spell from Lost Empires of Faerun which incorporates everyone's feedback.
This is for D&D 5th Edition.
Boon of High Magic
You can copy epic spells into your spellbook or ritual book and can cast them as rituals.
Seed Mythal (Spell)
Epic evocation (ritual)
Casting Time: 10 minutes.
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a focus that will be at the centre of the mythal equal to at least 10,000 gp)
Duration: Permanent
You create a persistent magical field centered on the point you choose. You (or other casters cooperating with you) can then cast a number of spells into the field, thereby either granting or denying access to them to creatures within the field. Effects you can include in your mythal fall into four categories: prevalent spells (always active), arointed spells (always denied to those within the field), vanguard spells (available on demand to those within the field), and prevalent powers (persistent effects that do not map to any particular spell). After each caster finishes expending their spells they must make an Arcana check equal to DC 15 + the total level of the spells they cast into the field. If one person fails their arcana check than those spells will not be part of the Mythal unless a subsequent caster performing the ritual casts those spells. If everyone fails their arcana check than the ritual fails and the material components are destroyed. Once raised, a mythal cannot be dispelled, disjoined, or suppressed by any nonepic spell, except for an antimagic field which suppresses the portion of the mythal that it overlaps but otherwise does it no harm. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 02:28:30
Hmmm, getting to the core of the original poster.... he wants to know how to portray elven high magic so that it "feels" to the characters like what's been described. Honestly, I've never used it in a game, but the 2e representations were very interesting thematically. How to portray this for the party? This is a good insight and frankly, I bet most people haven't every actually done it unless the DM simply sits there and tells them a longwinded story about what happens.
My thoughts are to first off do as you say, develop a storyline where the characters have to go retrieve certain items in order to even cast the spell. In making this list, you should consider how they might function in your describing of the magical effects later. For instance, if you have to retrieve some sword... do you have to push it into the heart of a dragon?
Personally, I'd take and make several different "ritual functions", each of which has a skill check required. Then, I'd have a tie-in from each of these smaller groups to the central caster. If they fail their check, its up to him to perform some kind of sacrifice in order to give them the bonus they ultimately need to pass the check, and depending on the severity of this bonus it could be devastating to this central caster. For instance, if one group must summon light energy from the positive material plane, then the central caster fixing their failure may require him to pass a higher and higher DC save or suffer blindness permanently. If that happens, then perhaps another caster has to use a spell to share their eyesight so the spell can continue. If another group has to use the heart of a demon to some effect, then perhaps the failure of their ritual requires the central caster to make a higher and higher DC dispel effect or have a spontaneous portal to the abyss form. The key here would be to come up with a list of "bad things" that can happen and relate them to certain aspects of the ritual, then make up a mechanic (save, ability check, dispel check, etc...) for countering the bad thing. Then also make a list of good things that happen for if a group DOESN'T fail their check (i.e. if someone passes their positive energy gathering, maybe they give a boost to the central caster if he has to counter the abyssal portal). Finally, put the order that these ritual things must happen. It might help to add mood music or lighting to bring this all out more too. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 17:17:00
The "high magic spells" were from the Evermeet sourcebook, though, and I think were completely superceded by the material in Cormanthyr.
As for the Cormanthyr high magic rituals, not all of them needed a group. There was a whole set of them that could be done by yourself.
I've never had the chance to include high magic in one of my games, but it's certainly something I've found fascinating. By and large, I hate what 3e did to it. But then again, 3e ruined a fair number of things (don't even get me started on psionics).  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 17:09:46
2E had High Magic spells, and High Magic rituals. The spells required single casters, and were like normal spells, save for being High Magic and subject to its restrictions/issues. The rituals were another story, and usually required multiple casters. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 13:53:58
I'm not sure about it always requiring multiple casters. In The Last Mythal series, I seem to recall Araevin casting some "minor" High Magics on his own without issues, but for the "greater" High Magics, it was not possible until after he changed.
I've had some High-Magic like rituals in my games, and I've usually run with the plot device version the few times I've done it. Components have to be gathered and placed just so, and it takes X amount of time chanting or whatever to complete the ritual. If at any time something happens to break concentration, you make a concentration roll. If you fail, it might consume your components, or you could just have to start over. I usually make whether the components are consumed or not a percentage roll that I determine ahead of time.
Once complete, there's a percent chance of immediate mishap, and each ritual performer makes a final caster level / concentration roll, whichever I think suits the nature of the ritual best and how hard I want it to be. Failure by more than 5 and some sort of mishap happens, usually a list of mishaps I've made specific to the ritual.
After this, any unforeseen future complications are merely plot devices. I don't make anyone roll for that, it's just a twist I may or may not use at a future date in another campaign or adventure.
Anyway, that's the way I've run High Magic in the past, in addition to the Epic Magic system of 3E. Now that I'm running 5e, I may tweak it a little bit, but I doubt I'll stray from the above. It's plot-driven aspect suits me. I'll probably make some "minor" High Magics ritual spells with higher than 9th Level Effects, but no permanent lasting impact. My other thought was to take the Epic Boons from the DMG and allow them to be cast as temporary spells, but instead of using spell slots, they cost a combination of XP or HP. I havent' refined that idea yet, but I'm tossing it out there. |
| idilippy |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 13:41:33
I haven't had active Elven High Magic in my campaigns thus far, though players have encountered the remnants of such casting along with Mythals, wards, and other sorts of powerful magical constructs and weavings. If I did introduce that form of magic into a game I would probably use the incantation/ritual rules to model it. Multiple casters, time and material requirements, multiple skill checks, for very strong effects some sort of permanent draining or sacrifice, that sort of thing. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 11:36:45
I have made Epic Magic/Elven High Magic (they are one and the same to me) into a skill check.
Each spell can be individually crafted with a variety of parameters (some universal some from the schools of magic that are involved) and usually have massive DC requirements which mean that they are only achievable with multiple casters or an incredibly lengthy ritual.
The various parameters of the spell are a massive math calculation that gives you the final DC. Alternatively you can use it to replicate an existing spell (one you memorise) with a DC of 10 + 5 per spell level.
The DC can be reduced by sacrificing gold, magic (in the form of spell levels), experience (his own or other people - if an evil caster) and hit points/life force (again his own or other people)
The main caster splits the final DC into equal and smaller bitesize chunks that represent a days work.
Each day the caster performs his check against the smaller DC. If he succeeds then the ritual progresses. If he fails by a bit then it does not progress that day. If he fails a lot then the whole ritual collapses and you get a backlash.
Other casters can contribute by performing their own checks against the smaller DCs (thereby reducing the number of days it must be cast over) but with the same failure results (ie if anyone fails abysmally then you get a backlash)
The backlash takes the form of random magical effects that can include massive damage to the main caster (that he can then choose to distribute amongst the lesser casters).
In my realms this was the method of magic that the elves tried to teach the Netherese but they abandoned because it was too hard, not realising that it is much more powerful, but it takes a lot longer and can go awry on occasion. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 10:54:39
It always requires multiple spellcasters (though I believe only one needs to actually be a High Mage), it always requires a precious sacrifice (usually life) and frequently requires the direct intervention of a god, most often a member of the Seldarine. |
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