| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Arian Dynas |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 11:53:43
Ok, I now have a rather nice campaign lined out (with a few things to iron over) and now find myself stuck again. (Oh aside note, anyone in my campaign get out now lest I flay you alive. And I don't mean in game.)
So, the campaign is such; the year is 1360 DR, and the Time of Troubles is barely a year cold (Realmspace is still a thing of course and as far as I am concerned always will be. Screw this tree cosmology business.) and a young girl named Alaethe has been kidnapped from the home of her adoptive parents in Shadowdale.
The kidnappers, a group of displaced Baneite Zhentarim, wandering Bhaalyn Assassins and Mercenaries, and Myrkulite Cultists, have gathered together in Shadowdale for a common goal. Welding themselves together as The Church of the Dead Three, these godless cultists intend to use Alaethe, who is herself a Bhaalspawn, entrusted to her parents by the Harpers, along with the Crown of Horns, discovered by the Myrkulites, and an artifact called the Baneheart, containing a fragment of Bane's Divine essence from when he dueled Elminster and Mystra at the foot of the Celestial Stair, to fuel a rebirth for their gods, infusing Alaethe with the wickedness and might of Bane and Myrkul, mixing with her tainted blood.
They hope Alaethe will embody all three of the deities in one form, and they will of course return to Zhentil Keep, triumphant and cast down the Usurper Cyric and avenge the horrific persecutions of the Banedeath. Regardless of whether or not the cultist's ritual would work, the end result would very likely not be particularly pleasant for Alaethe.
This I have all figured out. The cultists who took Alaethe (along with the three cult leaders) are hiding out in the Zhentish ruins of Castle Krag (surely there are some basements down there that Jhordyn made use of in the day.) The PCs discover this by virtue of finding a flower Jhordyn had landscaped Castle Krag with that does not grow naturally anywhere else in the region. They attempted to consult Elminster concerning the flower to find out more, but as the Old Mage was out at the time, they received help from his scribe Lhaeo.
Now comes my sticky wicket. I intend to have the adventure climax with the PCs having to interrupt a three-part ritual occurring in three different rooms, forcing them to split up.
I have two options.
Either A). I stick to my original plan, and the cultists are so desperate they're shacking up here in Shadowdale and are hiding out in a old temple of Myrkul that was hidden deep under Castle Krag behind a secret door and thus, survived Jhordyn's fall. The three cult leaders are themselves not much more threatening than the party and the end encounter is more about killing the clerics attempting their ritual than it is about anything else. The clerics would likely attempt to flee with both Alaethe and the artifacts.
Or B). The cult is a much more credible threat, and is quartered in an ancient temple to one of the three gods (or some other location they have adapted to their purpose) and they formed a portal underneath Castle Krag, which then they made use of as an easy egress between the two locations to recover the Baneheart and Alaethe. The party would have to follow after them to the temple, and then the ritual encounter would become more about disrupting the concentration of the clerics themselves, rather than fighting them, as even one of them would be a very challenging fight for the PCs under this paradigm. I would likely force the PCs into a desperate fight to hold off the three, only for them to be saved at the last second from a TPK by Elminster swooping in and teleporting them and Alaethe out, the Sage of Shadowdale having finished with his business and been informed by Lhaeo. The Baneheart and the Crown would of course remain in the posession of the Church of the Dead Three, leaving them as a still very potent threat, even though Elminster's intercession and the desecration of their temple by way of Player Character would likely force them to flee to a new stronghold.
The issue is, I am not sure which to go with. Option B does look more attractive, but it also seems like it would draw it's own share of issues. Though having Villains who are a more credible threat does seem like it would give me more options with what they can do. And in either event Elminster would be a background character (as he is meant to remain.) |
| 6 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 23:17:02
I'll try to tackle your post point by point.
Can you have smaller side quests amid a larger campaign arc? That depends. Your concern is valid, but it depends on how you build things. If you want that you need automatic lulls in the action, and you need reasons for your PC's to go off and do it. That means you need to control for immediacy and motive.
If something important is going down with the main plot, the PC's are going to need / want to be there. Running off to explore random place X is not going to be high on the list. But if nothing is happening in the immediate moment, and you have hit a natural lull in the story -- that's when PC's can branch out and explore. The second thing is motive. They need a reason to go somewhere, and one of the best ways to do it is put something they want where you would like for them to go. If they want it, they have to go there and get it.
As for using Elminster, well, that is entirely up to you and your players desired play style. Personally, if I was dead set on using Elminster, I would have him come in at a different moment. For example, if the players need help dealing with the clerics and whatnot, I would send in some other folks instead. ...say, for example, Zhents loyal to Cyric. They would have a high interest in what is going on, and they should want to be involved in this plot--not sitting on the sidelines. So temporarily, the Zhents who are Cyrists and the players are on the same side... then things flip. Instead of being "saved" they now find themselves "prisoners". The Zhents use magic to question them and probe their minds, then send someone to relay that information to the other Zhents.
At some point during their imprisonment, sometime after these events, Elminster shows up to free the PC's. This way Elminster isn't stealing their thunder at the heat of battle, and they genuinely need his help.
If I was dead set on using Elminster, that's likely how I would do it. Getting the faithful of Cyric involved is a good idea anyway, since this is something that would concern them most directly.
As for the mention of the Baneliches... I was talking about the events surrounding the Tyrantfog. (Read about that here.) That is somewhat related to the formation of the Moonstars, and all of these events can be read about in Cloak and Dagger. It is directly related to the rise of Xvim.
So, basically, you have the opportunity to introduce multiple factions working at cross purposes: the Harpers, the Moonstars, the Zhents who follow Cyric, and the Zhents who follow Xvim. They can be fighting / struggling against each other as much as they are fighting / struggling against the Cultists of the Dark Three.
You have lots of opportunities here that could literally take your players from one end of Faerun to the next and then back again.
As a side note, one thing that I have discovered about using D&D as a rule set is that because it actively encourages combat, it is very easy to find yourself as a DM slipping into the mindset of: "I want there to be consequences for this, and for there to be consequences I must kill them." Except, of course, you don't really want to kill them, but you also don't want a situation where there are no severe consequences for screwing up.
So, like with the Elminster situation, you want to make it hard (combat wise), but it seems that you are afraid of going at the players TOO hard and killing them. The best way to avoid falling into this DM trap, is to evaluate two things: intent and consequences.
Ask yourself what is the players intent? What are they hoping to achieve through their actions? Also, evaluate the possibility of partial success and failure. Once you know their intent the failure consequence (usually non-lethal) becomes obvious. This requires you to think outside of the combat oriented play that D&D encourages. Combat is just a way for players to try and create an outcome that they want. That is all combat is in RPG's -- even in dungeon crawling, combat happens because players want whatever is down there and there just so happens to be things standing in their way.
The best part of learning to think this way is that it makes running your games so much easier, because of the cascading effects. Failure becomes a good thing for the story, because failure pushes the story forward, rather than ending it abruptly like certain death would. And it makes your life easier because you don't have to plan so far ahead, and failure provides ready made future problems that need to be tackled. You only have to plan ahead up toward the next major challenge, and the story you build sort of takes you along for the ride with the rest of the group.
So, as a DM, instead of trying to plan so far out ahead, I am focused on building the initial scenario that gets the ball rolling. After that, I am sitting back and responding to the group by setting up challenges and obstacles. I am constantly looking to evaluate what the players want their characters to do and achieve, and that is where I put my focus. I build the elements that I want to see in the world into the obstacles and challenges that I create for them. From time to time I may try and nudge players in one direction or another, but over all the story is fairly organic in nature.
All of this makes your life a bit easier as a DM, as you don't have to do so much planning and prepping for the players. The sad part is, as I am sure you know, the moment your players enter the picture the best laid plans tend to collapse all around you. Players are inherently unpredictable. That is the advantage of asking, "What is your character attempting to do and why?" From that question you can discern intent, and immediately think up a consequence for failure.
It also helps you avoid planning paralysis and burn out, where you find yourself constantly trying to plan things out, but never actually playing or enjoying the game.
Anyway, I hope this is helpful, and answered all of your main points and questions. |
| Arian Dynas |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 16:00:33
Welp, regardless of what the game might become I do now have a location for the true temple; situated in an abandoned Dwarven city in the Desertsmouth Mountains, under occupation by the cult since the Zhentarim know of such places, and these guys are apparently either not in the know about the events taking place at the Citadel of the Raven (and the Zhents won't have their power consolidated there until 1366 anyway) so these guys kicked the collective behinds of the Gnolls and Flinds in residence, bent any local goblins to the will of their Hobgoblin and human soldiers, and begun converting the old dwarven ruin to their purpose. |
| Arian Dynas |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 01:05:11
Discussing it with an outside party you fellows are indeed right. Option B is my best bet.
And well the "difficult but not impossible" was my best bet from the get-go. I have a group of players who have a tendency to find ways to surprise and throw off even the best made plans and solutions to those plans (hence why in several instances, I have, very cleverly, NOT come up with solutions to those plans and let them do the legwork. Nya-ha!)
I do know that they would never in a thousand years try to collapse the temple without finding a way to get the girl out (well one PC might, but three of them at least I know would object so stridently it wouldn't get anywhere. Which is why I am still probably going to go with the Moonstars idea you suggested, thanks by the way Aldrick; it'll make for good intra-party conflict. They probably won't come to the idea of just killing the girl until an NPC suggests it anyway.)
The ritual itself I have perhaps miscommunicated; the cultists get basically one shot this year. It has to be preformed on the Solar eclipse that takes place at noon on the 20th of Ches (which is three days from when the party finds out about Alaethe's kidnapping. Might wanna give them a week since I am now expanding the temple. Thoughts?) if the PCs can find a way to disrupt all three rituals at the same time, Alaethe will be freed from the magical construct holding her in place for the ritual, and the party can attempt to flee with her in hand. They don't even *need* to fight the clerics in question if they are particularly clever. The wrinkle of course being that all three rituals must be disrupted at the same time, or the thing will go off (although the effects would be very unpredictable. I have no idea yet what might happen if it goes off without a hitch, without the Baneheart, without the Crown, or without Alaethe.)
I suppose part of why I want Elminster to show up and help them fight is because it gives me a credible reason to have him chase the clerics in question off. I do need them to flee and disappear (or possibly succeed) and have a reason to leave their temple; both so the campaign doesn't *need* to be completely dominated by fighting these guys (though I suppose if they fail it very well could be.) and because one of the backup plans I have is for one of the three to put on The Crown of Horns; make a monologue about how the PCs should cherish their victory for the time being, because there are others and the Dead Three will rise again, blah blah blah.
I do have an encounter idea involving the Old Mage showing up, wielding spellfire to hold back the soldiers backing up the clerics, letting him keep the soldiers busy while the party fights said (probably level 9 or so clerics) with Elminster taking down their biggest buffs and healing the party with Spellfire if someone goes down. That's of course how I would prevent things from being a complete Deus Ex Machina, and still give the PCs their moment in the limelight (which is as far as I am concerned how if you're going to use Elminster so obviously you should; he's not been the sort for taking the spotlight in over 500 years after all.)
I do plan on having them probably follow up by visiting Waterdeep either way after, since I do love me some Undermountain, and visiting Blackstaff Tower would be a fine way to learn more about the Crown. And it gives me an excuse to make use of the nascent Moonstars.
I do think you are right however, Aldrick, I should plan more for failure. So I suppose if they fail completely, they see Alaethe become a new Godling, exactly as the cultists planned, her innocence destroyed or locked up with her soul in some deep metaphysical part of her, while her tainted blood mixes with Myrkul's personality and the tyranny of Bane to form a new being. Then they've got to get back to Shadowdale, get admonished by Elminster and start cranking up a new plan, and possibly have to visit Waterdeep to learn about how they can counteract the Crown, as well as look into ways in which they can make use of the fact that Torm destroyed Bane utterly there.
If they rescue Alaethe, but the priests escape by using the Crown and the Baneheart, the cultists begin seeking out other Bhaalspawn to make use of for the ritual (I'll say that the uninteresting ones are too weak, and others, like Gorion's Ward are unavailable being still under Gorion's protection, and others like Viekang are just too damned hard to catch, though this might make for some interesting interactions with Sarevok and the Iron Throne, considering that by 1360 DR he's pushing between 12 to 17. ) and they need to visit Waterdeep for the same reasons.
If they disrupt the ritual, and free but are unable to rescue Alaethe for some reason (if I do use Elminster swooping in to give them a hand during the final fight, this could add a wrinkle of strategy to the encounter that might be engaging.) then the clerics flee with her in hand and Elminster admonishes them, then they gotta find a way to hunt down said clerics and the girl before they can try again.
I already know they can't destroy the Crown of Horns, though obtaining it would give them another reason to visit Blackstaff Tower, the Baneheart, well I barely have a few features of it tacked down. (At the moment I am thinking it is a black stone that resembles a piece of coal that glows with an eerie green witchlight, that I possibly will have the Baneite wear around his neck on a gold chain? Still considering what it could even *do* though.)
No matter what would happen, their ritual would have to adjust (honestly while I am familiar with the Bhaalspawn war, I am not so clear on the destruction of the Baneliches. I know what a Banelich *is* but could ya tell me a bit about that Aldrick?)
Also the idea of Elminster in disguise does appeal a bit more than some other random jagoff, because I have already built up to a payoff with Elminster, rather than someone else, and to a degree I might be able to have the aforementioned encounter as I described it with a disguised Elminster.
Also I suppose part of why I am hesitant about the idea of the villains succeeding is because there's this thought in my head that if they do and Alaethe becomes a true Godling like they want, or if they manage to run off with her, while it *does* make for a better story, I have this concern in my head that if that happens, the campaign will then become *just* about that; I won't have time for long dungeon delves into places like Undermountain, I can't introduce other villains unless they relate to this story somehow, and the PC's can't act at all mercenary and go off to slay yon dragon and plunder it's horde with such world-shattering events going on around them because they wouldn't have time and such.
Is this an unfounded concern? The more I think about it, it might be, since Baldur's Gate still lets you rifle through Durlag's Tower, Watcher's Keep and you could have the more classical, self-contained free-floating adventures in Shadows of Amn by virtue of needing to do them to get the money to save Imoen. And indeed, with NWN2 (another favorite of mine) you could still slay yon dragon and plunder it's horde, even while you were there on the mountain to kill the Fire-Giant Chief, or you could still do small side-quests, even while the King of Shadows promised to cover the land in darkness.
But at the same time, I can remember that with The Mask of the Betrayer, even while it was a better story, I rushed through it the first time because I was in such a hurry to get free of what felt like a constraining curse so I could get back the freedom to adventure where I wanted. And as a player of Exalted, I know first hand how world-shattering concerns can suddenly make the petty squabbles of politicians seem unimportant, how helping a woman recover her husband's wedding ring from a undead-infested crypt can seem like a waste of time in the face of that fact. That kind of thing.
So, as far as *that* goes, am I being silly? Can I still have my piddly-little personal, relatively self-contained adventures in the midst of a world-shaking plot? Can I still have some pulpy, self-interested "sword-and-sorcery" adventure in the midst of my massive Tolkenian epic? |
| Delwa |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 20:26:47
I'll second Aldrick's thoughts about making it difficult, but not impossible, and add this. If it were me, and I were to have El save them in the nick of time, I wouldn't make it obvious it's Elminster. I'd have the old sage disguised as a stranger, or someone heroic they know, but not an iconic character, perhaps even pulling a "he saves us from certain death by sacrificing himself" trick, but the reality is he had things well in hand with contingencies and illusions galore. They might discover it is Elminster later, if they ask the right questions and are curious, but I wouldn't want to steal the spotlight from my heroes at such a moment in that obvious a way.
You know your PC's better than I, though. If they like it like that, go for it. I know I'd have fun in such a story. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 20:19:56
I, too, would avoid using Elminster. An alternative, though, would be to use another powerful NPC who shows up at just the right moment to tip things in the PC's favor.
What could be really fun is if he then states the PCs owe him a favor which he will collect later, then disappears. The guy (or woman) could remain a mysterious benefactor, or he could have his own agenda which the PCs wouldn't necessarily support.
If they oppose his agenda but feel obligated to assist when he calls in the favor, that could lead to some fun roleplaying and perhaps a creative way to aid him and oppose him at the same time. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 19:29:49
I lean heavily on Option B as well, for the reasons you brought up as well as others. It is always a good idea to give yourself as much flexibility as possible, and frankly it makes for a better story.
The downside here is... well... the use of Elminster. By bringing him in to save the PC's at the last minute, you in inadvertently create the perception from the player perspective that they were being setup to fail from the very beginning. A lot of people hate Elminster being used in this manner.
You are also ruling out and overlooking other things the PC's could do. For example, if they realize how dangerous it is, they might opt for an entirely different approach. For example, they might decide that it is worth trying to collapse and destroy the castle / temple with the cultists and the hostage within it. It will stop the ritual and kill the cultists. Sure, it might also kill their hostage, but oh well. Her death is small potatoes next to the consequences of their success.
Players are usually very hesitant about going into near certain death circumstances.
Personally, I would alter it slightly. I would keep them as a creditable threat, and make sure that the characters understand that a direct assault is going to end badly. I would create the opportunity for them to go in and try to rescue Alaethe through some sort of covert means. If they fail, they get captured, and are forced to watch as the cult completes their ritual and Alaethe is lost.
I would also offer some alternatives as well. In order for the ritual to work, the cult needs all three of its artifacts (the Crown of Horns, Alaethe, and the Baneheart). I would make stealing the Crown of Horns the easiest, the Baneheart of moderate difficulty, and Alaethe the hardest. They will only be able to successfully steal one. This could mean abandoning Alaethe to the cultists (with some dire consequences for her -- she falls to the dark side and the taint within her blood), but at the cost of increasing their chances of success in stopping the ritual.
So, you are setting the stakes here: The players stop the ritual by rescuing Alaethe. However, if the players fail then Alaethe is lost and the rise of a new dark power begins. Alternatively, they could try and snag either the Baneheart or the Crown of Horns, at the cost of abandoning Alaethe, but stopping the ritual.
Make it difficult, but not impossible. Then watch them squirm as they have to make difficult choices.
...and should they fail, AND find some means to escape, OR abandon Alaethe they will obviously be returning to Shadowdale and to Elminster. At which point Elminster will chastise them for their failure (or for abandoning Alaethe), and help them come up with a plan.
Whether they leave Alaethe behind or they fail and the ritual is successful, I would move on to part 2 and 3: the destruction of the Baneliches (as happened in Canon, but this time to fuel Alaethe's power), and the pulling the trigger on the Bhaalspawn War (once again to fuel Alaethe's power). |
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