| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 07:21:04
Back in 2013 I started a Forgotten Realms campaign (using the 2nd edition rules). In theory it seemed like it would work. The players were level 1, they were caravan guards at Battlerise when their merchant betrayed them and only paid them half of what had been promised. That's alright, there's another merchant and they can get work elsewhere. Wrong. Next thing I know they're trying to massacre everyone in town and I either have a TPK or massacre on my hands (I opted for a ceasefire if the PC's left there and then).
They had the mission of heading to Arabel where they could find excitement and adventure on the frontier lands, but they proceeedde to not engage in any adventures on the way to Arabel, running away from every avenue of adventure meanwhile haggling over every single copper piece.
Needless to say no-one enjoyed it and it only lasted a few games.
If I were to run another Forgotten Realms campaign in the future (no set plans as to when or who for) I'd want to capture that living and breathing world everyone here talks about. I'd want the characters to feel connected and for there to be repercussions for their actions (both good and bad).
I'm puttering around with some ideas at the moment, the current one being running N4. Under Illefarn, using Eric L Boyd's notes to flesh it out and make it more enjoyable (and potentially include elements of Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle. I'm unsure at this point).
What I wanted to ask for advice on was: how do you set up the premise of the campaign so that the players feel connected to the setting and to give them a believable reason to stop performing their day jobs to go on adventure?
My current thinking is to set it in Daggerford and to have the players be members of the militia. The opening handout for the campaign would be something like this:quote:
Hear ye, hear ye. On this first day of Alturiak in the year 1357, the most righteous Duke Merovy of Daggerford is calling on all men and women of good standing and high morals to come to the frontier lands of the Shining Baronies.
All of those who heed this call and lend their sword or spell in this most noble cause shall undertake the defenses of this region as a member of the Daggerford militia. Those who do so shall be recompensed with equipment specific to their rank and specialty, three hot meals a day, a warm bed, a stipend of 6 gold pieces a month minus costs and shall only be required to work every nine of tendays.
What this does at the beginning of the campaign is it provides the players with structure so they're not sitting around waiting for the meteor to come crashing from the sky. It also gives them a clear premise to go on adventures as they're told by their superiors to investigate this rumour, or deal with that murder. It also removes the need for the players to worry about daily expenses, but doesn't provide them with so little coin that they would never want to go adventuring.
I'd expect the first few adventures would be done "on the job" and would be related to their role in Daggerford as members of the militia. However as they're dealing with these threats, saving those people and investigating alleged crimes, they'll be getting plothooks for other adventures for them to go on. They'll hear whispers of ancient ruins lying nearby and find clues that maybe that sage whose home was broken into is in fact doing something nefarious and not with the best intentions of the town in mind.
As they want to start investigating these extra plothooks, they'll have the chance in that they get 1 day off a week. This will give them a time limit to go on these adventures and they'll have to work to conserve resources so they don't have to leave prematurely and wait an entire other week. They might, with some wheeling and dealing, be able to negotiate having 2 days off in a row if they do a favour for some of the other guards to cover their shift.
Finally as the campaign proceeds they'll inevitably amass enough wealth that they don't need to keep being soldiers in the militia and that doing so is actively inhibiting their making more money and helping the town. So they'll buy homes and businesses or seek to become knights or members of the Duke's court so they can concentrate more on adventuring (which will inevitably come with it's own responsibilities that will impede on their time).
Does that sound like a good start of a campaign?
I'm removing some of the player freedom at the start of the campaign. But in return they get clear and obvious plothooks to go on until they get into the swing of things and start wanting to do their own things. It also helps make them feel special and more important without relying on mechanics to convey this. |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 20:34:49
I had to somewhat laugh at the fact your players killed the treacherous merchant and went on a killing spree. Honestly, I would have ran with it, assuming they understood the nature of the game they were playing. The living and breathing world that you want is fully capable of incorporating such characters. Playing outlaws can be fun, not to mention there are a lot of fun plot hooks you could throw at them that wouldn't work for traditional characters.
However, if they were approaching it from the MMORPG perspective, as SaMoCon put it, then you need to talk with the players and get them to understand the nature of the game that they are playing. They need to understand that there are consequences for their actions. They need to know that the world will react to the things that they do (or do not do). They need to understand that this is the advantage of playing D&D over a video game.
Once they understand that, your next job is to sit everyone down and talk about what type of game they want to play. Then listen to them. If your idea of a fun game is doing dungeon crawls, and their idea of a good game is playing as assassins with the ultimate objective of killing the king of Cormyr -- you need to be prepared to hear that. What they want and what you want might be different, and it might even be different between the players. Your job is to try and create a game that everyone at the table can enjoy.
When it comes to starting the game, and encouraging player involvement -- I want to get them as close to the "action" as possible right out of the gate. By action, I mean the thing or the series of events that is going to set everything into motion. This is the call to adventure, to use narrative parlance. To bind everyone together, I usually have them build their characters into some type of Realms organization -- either as members or very strong allies. If players properly create their characters to fit into such organizations, then it is easy to keep them all on the same page, and it allows you to bring in NPC's to nudge them this way or that so they don't feel that they are wandering around aimlessly.
Another thing you can do is to encourage your players to write down some (in character) immediate goals and objectives they would like to accomplish. Then reward them with XP as they move toward those goals, while setting up obstacles to be in their way. And by goals, I do not mean a To Do list like: Talk to the Lord, Go Shopping, etc. I mean something along the lines of, "I will go to Lord Abbathor and convince him of the righteousness of a crusade against the Banites within the city." That is political intrigue, and that is something you can play around with to make the story more interesting. The player, through his character, is TELLING YOU what he wants to do. You get to set obstacles in his way, and create the consequences should he fail. Failure is a good thing because it gives you plenty of opportunities to challenge the characters. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 19:53:01
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
I would not do that because it is likely to alienate that player from my game. D&D is one of the many RPGs on the market that concentrates all the power in a game into the GM's hands. Using that power to seize anything from that player's character is demotivating. Why would the player go collect the seized asset or its equivalents if it can just be seized yet again (whether or not you do it again is moot in the face of the reality that you can and have already demonstrated that fact)?
A couple things:
1. A DM's job is to keep the game going.
2. Any player who is alienated by an NPC or monster thieving their stuff to the point they'll leave the gaming table and never come back probably shouldn't play the game.
In D&D, there exists an endless host of creatures intent on slaying the players and taking their stuff. To me it's strange to suggest that it's OK to try and kill players (through the everyday act of running encounters), but not to take anything else away from them.
In my experience, the quickest way to fire up a player is to take something from them in-game. This puts their attention back into the campaign. It's a tool to be used sparingly, but it always works.
If a campaign is off the rails because the players aren't biting or are in the mood to run wild, then the DM needs to do something. That's why the DM is invested with so much power.
That a game could still end anyway is no excuse not to try, and a player getting his or her feelings hurt is an opportunity for that player to grow up a little.
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@JohnLynch
quote:
What I wanted to ask for advice on was: how do you set up the premise of the campaign so that the players feel connected to the setting and to give them a believable reason to stop performing their day jobs to go on adventure?
I would just tell the players their characters are tired of the everyday life of toil and work, and they've assembled to find a more interesting (and lucrative) life together.
The only practical way to get players to feel connected to the Realms is to put them first and the Realms a distant second. Make the Realms in your campaign consistent. If you present an NPC a certain way, don't change things up later. Don't worry about what's in the sourcebooks either. Present the world as you see it.
Again: Don't ever put the Realms first. The Realms is a tool, just like the material you'll find in the Monster Manual or the DMG.
Find parts of the Realms that will challenge your players and give them the opportunity to leave their mark on.
Remember: players like to tell stories about their characters.
Make the NPCs lively and memorable, keep your DM exposition short and to the point, and let the player's actions give you the opportunity to present more of the Realms.
For example: if you were using Myrmeen Lhal (the Lady Lord of Arabel), don't go on at length about her or how awesome she is. Instead, introduce her as the King's Lord, and let players figure out/learn who she is by interacting with her.
Good luck, and I hope to hear more about your campaign in future posts. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 19:23:48
Dazzlerdal's post went in under mine undetected because I take a long time to craft and proof my posts which is why I didn't see it until right now.
JohnLynch's first game went off the rails with the apparent cause being an NPC shorting the players' characters' wages. Having an "eeeeeeevil NPC" that will trash their reputation and land them in jail right out of the gate in "Under Illefarn" is trashing the setting and likely to derail the game, again. If the players didn't like their dis-empowerment in the face of an irate merchant withholding money and started murdering everybody then how do you think they will react to Daggerford (not one guy but the authority of the town and its people) wrongfully imprisoning the PCs effectively in the first 15 minutes of the movie? The Sylvester Stallone flick "Rambo" comes to mind. There's no need to flog the players like they are horses tethered to a wagon that you need pulled in a specific direction.
"Under Illefarn" has many things afoot in the original write-up that the players' characters are already rail-roaded towards: a brewing war with the lizardman tribes, a covetous baron with eyes for the duke's sister, a Cult of the Dragon leader seeking to convert a new dracolich, an orc with delusions of grandeur, and a dragon carrying out its plans to seize the entire river valley by indirect means. Each of these things are taken in order of play. The set-up has an overriding structure imposed on the players as they must perform their duties as members of the militia. There is also down time between musters for duty to which the players can decide on their own things and pursue their own agenda (though all my group did was find employment to pay for our characters' food and lodging so we ended up playing just the adventure as written).
Eric Boyd wrote up a more detailed setting and NPCs with motivations and goals of their own in this thread starting with the post about the "Shining Baronies" and continuing for several pages there after including one very insidious evil of whom it will be practically impossible for anyone to detect the danger from until it is too late. Once you get a couple games into the "Under Illefarn" and your players are liking the setting I recommend giving Eric Boyd's write-ups a look for interesting NPCs to roleplay interacting with the characters and local lore that the PCs will start learning by being in the small town with locals who begin appreciating the characters for pulling their own weight and acquitting themselves well in the militia.
It is true that players are more prone to needing direction from the GM when playing an RPG. I consider that to be a conditioned response from the early evolution of D&D modules. Just as the players have to put some trust into the GM by accepting the woefully unbalanced power ratio against them then the GM has to step back from his authority and talk with his players as a peer seeking enjoyment from the game. Solicit feedback. Ask the players what they would like to see and how they would like the game to progress for next time or down the road.
But all of this is after a few sessions. "Under Illefarn" is ready to go for players willing to play in the Forgotten Realms with no tricks and believable coincidences. JohnLynch, I didn't say it before (it was an oversight on my part) but you have a solid game plan. Talk to your players and make it happen.
Then come back and tell us what worked for you and how things changed from the last game. |
| Misereor |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 11:58:09
Pretty much everything SaMoCon said.
Without having been present, I would guess the problem with the first group was that you didn't manage to catch your players' interest with the sidetrek adventures on the way to Arabel. It's bound to happen, so when it doesn, you must be ready to try different bait.
If they don't like dungeoneering, try having them break into a warehouse to get the secret plans.
If they don't like rogue stuff, have them rescue the fair maiden from the rich merchant's villa and reunite her with her boyhood romance who is actually a doppleganger in the employ of a secretive wizard who's actually the mayor a small town just up the coast, which needs the ransom money in order to pay tribute to an evil dragon, who turns out to be the original childhood romance in question, who is really trying to bankrupt the merchant.
If they don't like overly convoluted plots, have an NPC pick a fight with them in the next bar they visit and make him drop a treasure map when they knock him unconscious.
By all means feel free to let life happen ruthlessly and without mercy to the players while they are busy making other plans, but you still have to give them some freedom of movement.
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| Arian Dynas |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 11:08:09
In my case I find a real simple way to get them invested is to work on your acting skills.
Give your PCs people they can relate to; some locals, some folk they want to care about and possibly protect. Give them a village in the Dales to watch over if it comes right down to it. They'll probably feel downright protective of the place if they can make it their own. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 09:02:52
quote:
... any player that haggles over copper pieces is the first player you should rob of all or some of their wealth. Penny pinchers are great at moving the game along (read: getting the other players focused and motivated) when they have equal parts vengeance and justice on their minds.
I would not do that because it is likely to alienate that player from my game. D&D is one of the many RPGs on the market that concentrates all the power in a game into the GM's hands. Using that power to seize anything from that player's character is demotivating. Why would the player go collect the seized asset or its equivalents if it can just be seized yet again (whether or not you do it again is moot in the face of the reality that you can and have already demonstrated that fact)?
If the players trust a GM implicitly they will allow that GM to run roughshod over the only tool they have to influence anything in a game - their characters. The results of the game JohnLynch had in 2013 do not speak of that trust nor do they show an understanding of the goals of play between the parties involved. JohnLynch, you want to create a game where the players enjoy interacting with the story elements and creating relationships with NPCs like they are people. That first run with your players sounds like they were relieving stress, carrying out wish fulfillment, and/or approaching the NPCs as non-sapient obstacles that may be indiscriminately eliminated. Sounds like a MMORPG player attacking a town NPC to see what happens or because he was frustrated and then reloading the game if things go sideways with no more consideration than resetting and reloading from the last save file.
Talk with your players. Ask them what they want to get out of the game. Tell them what you want to run and why. It may be your players had a bad go that other time because they felt cheated and didn't understand the consequences... not just the in-game ramifications but the real trouble you had in what they were doing and how the game spun away from the "fun zone" when you couldn't figure out why they were doing the things they were doing. In that discussion you may also find unrealistic notions or incompatible expectations that need to be hashed out before the game begins.
I like using this analogy - the gaming group you sit down with is like a band. You have a regular band or maybe a few going simultaneously but you get together to produce a sound. You all practice and perform together with your select instruments in your genre but the music you make is your (all, you and your other players) sound. But there are times where your sound isn't right, that one or more players wanted to play a different genre either by matter of evolution or they were just jamming with you until something better comes along. If you are looking for a particular sound then you need to select the musicians regardless of the friendships. The same goes for a gaming group, to have a group whose style of play can harmonize, that the leader lays out the performances that allow each member to have his time in the spotlight, and at the end of the day everyone looks at each other and says "that was fun. We should do this again."
JohnLynch, when you have players who want to tackle the Forgotten Realms and are willing to treat the fiction like an interactive world with which they can establish lasting memories through play then you will find that experience everyone else has been talking about. That experience is a group effort and not everyone can get there. If the players are not willing or not able to make that commitment in play then you cannot force them to have a good game as you dictate it.
N4 "Under Illefarn" is the adventure that prevented me from writing off D&D and the Forgotten Realms in the late 90s. I had played the realms ever since I got the gray box in 88 but I never had a good game until 10 years later in that adventure. It took me another 5-6 years to figure out why when I started studying gaming theory and had the epiphany that those in the independent gaming community had been telling other gamers who would listen - not everyone looks to RPGs for the same things and the same reasons that you do when you sit down to play. That gaming group I had was all mature players looking to make an impact on the world with a group of friends whom were finally together again after seven years for a final hurrah in a fictional world with detailed NPCs that our PCs could approach, interact with, and upon which we could make lasting impression. That game was our best jam ever and "under Illefarn" was our sheet music.
If your players want to play Forgotten Realms then tell them about the game you are going to run, "Under Illefarn." Tell them about Daggerford and the fact that it is a community removed from the greater civilizations by huge distances and often hostile territory. Tell them that there are certain archetypes that will not fit: the psychotic killers, the gruff loners, the squint-eyed bravos, and anything else that you feel your NPCs would never approach or trust. Let them know about NPCs who could be their friends or let them create NPC friends to which they have common interests. Have them tell you what their PCs are doing there and use their goals to create hooks for the present and your adventures for the future.
That's my two cents... adjusted for inflation.  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 08:45:03
I have often found that while the idea of an open campaign is excellent with the freedom to roam and explore. The reality is very different and most players are unwilling or unable to cope with such freedom (most DMs as well when the players really run off topic).
Playing a totally free game requires a lot of thought from the player and many just dont want that kind of pressure.
Therefore the best way to tackle this situation is to provide the illusion of freedom while rail roading them onto a desired path.
There are many means to manipulate your players, the lure of gold and treasure and other rewards, but i find often the most effective means of making the players do what you want is to provide them with a target.
Of course not just any target will do. What you need is a really dastardly and vicious villain, someone the players truly hate and want to see brought to justice (or want to eviscerate brutally).
Starting off in the militia is a good idea for some initial structure. If it were me i would have the unit containing the PCs sent to do some fighting against a lizardmen incursion. Everything goes well for the first few fights then suddenly their commanding officer abandons them at a crucial point and the entire unit (except the PCs gets slaughtered). Either the PCs survive by killing all the lizardmen, or they get captured and all their gear gets nicked.
Now they have a mild reason to dislike their former captain who returned to Daggerford before the PCs and told everyone that the players deserted their unit and he was the only one that survived the attack.
Cue the players getting arrested and another reason to hate this guy who at their disciplinary hearing/trial advocates them being executed.
Then maybe have some other humanoids attack the town and the players can make their escape (perhaps the humanoids attack the jail).
Now you can get the players to do anything you like just by mentioning that there are rumours this guy was spotted in the area.
I would ultimately have the guy working with Zhents out of Dragonspear Castle (Cloak and Dagger hinted that the ultimate plan of the Zhents before the Manshoon Wars was to establish a permanent base in Dragonspear Castle to secure a trade route all the way from the Moonsea to Waterdeep) and hiring humanoid tribes to attack Daggerford and all trade moving in and out of the area so that they turn to the Zhents for help (a standard Zhentarim tactic). |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 07:33:30
I'll have to think on this.
In the interim, a word of advice: any player that haggles over copper pieces is the first player you should rob of all or some of their wealth. Penny pinchers are great at moving the game along (read: getting the other players focused and motivated) when they have equal parts vengeance and justice on their minds. |
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