| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Delwa |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 00:23:47
I am looking for ways to "tempt" individual party members in my current Campaign. I want to throw obstacles, temptations in their path to make a neutral with evil bent or just all-out evil PC really question shifting to good, without making the game no longer fun.
Here are a few pertinent details.
Date: 23 Ches, 1490 DR
Location: the party is part of a caravan (secretly Zhent, they don't know that) that is heading East along the Delimbiyr Route to pick up the Black Road. They are currently near Floshin Estate. They are working for a Drow Household that is secretly wanting to establish a surface kingdom. This Drow House is using the PC's to scout the area around Zhentil Keep and see if the Ruins left by the Shades are worth conquest.
(Translation, I have the Ruins of Zhentil Keep Boxed Set, I want to use it, but in a more current Realms, and this was part of my solution)
Party Composition:
Hill Dwarf Fighter (CN) who reveres Tempus.
Drow Wild Mage (CN) who's very much the "I'm too noble (House Vandree) to do work" diva.
Drow Arcane Trickster (NE) Mischief Maker, on the run from Skullport. He displeased a female in House Hunzrin one night, and she wants his head. This mission is his chance to escape with his life.
Kender Fighter (CN) Thinks people are generally misunderstood and are really nice inside if you give them a chance. This attitude has caused her to fall in with the wrong sort of folk many times.
Waterdhavian Rogue (CN) Murdered his wife when he caught her sleeping with his brother, then framed the brother for the crime and skipped town.
Half-Elf Cleric of Mask (NE) Habitual liar. Collects Holy Symbols of varying deities as a hobby. From Skullport.
Deep Gnome Evoker (LE) Traitor to his people, aided the Drow in the recent Reclaiming of Blingdenstone (D&D Next Playtest adventure)
Human Barbarian Bounty Hunter (NE) Going where the money takes him.
This campaign is "Evil" in the sense that the PC's are working for the Bad Guys. I'm ok with them not shifting alignment, but I do want to make them seriously consider their life choices. I have a few ideas. Currently, they met up with the Waterdhavian's Brother-in-law, who is on the run for running off a year ago with a Waterdhavian noble's daughter. There's a sizable bounty out for the Brother-in-law's head and the safe return of the daughter.
The monkey wrench in the whole thing is the daughter died adventuring with the brother-in-law, but bore a child after an unfortunate run in with a fiend. The child is not the brother-in-law's, it is a tiefling, but the brother-in-law is set on raising it as his own, as it is the last thing he has left of his dead love's.
At present, the party is trying to come up with a way to cash in on the bounty without getting the brother-in-law killed.
Again, I'm looking for ways to dangle temptation in front of each party member and make them go home and rethink their life. The brother-in-law was one idea I had, but I'm wondering if anyone had others. (or suggestions in general.) I'm running in 5e, if that is important to anyone.
Thanks in advance!
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| 9 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Delwa |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 23:57:26
quote:
Originally posted by Vehiron
According to my humble opinion, your approach could depend on several factors:
1) How and in what way are you considering your PC-s to be evil (i.e what is their individual and not circumstantial direction besides „working for the bad guys” if any) ?
2) What is the direction you would like them to aim for, advance towards, or consider?
3) What is your individual and ideal approach for „influencing them, and their decisions”, and how much freedom exactly would you like them to have regarding the outcome?
4) Are you determined to have a certain outcome, or content in giving them an option to seriously consider things, and then rise higher or fall deeper depending on the answers they give to the moral challenges in the encounters you provide them with ?
Hooks for the factors:
1) If and when determining the „archetypes” of PC-s, and wishing to play around with psychological and moral lines (since according to my experience one needs to know the ingredients one wishes to cook from), I should suggest you to check out the Philosophies of Evil section in the Champions of Ruin Forgotten Realms book (page 5). You have a party, with different PC-s with different approaches, and although no PC might be fitted 100% into a category there like „I am not Evil” or „Driven to evil”, you might find „the closest” cathegory that each of the PC-s could fit into (even if they themselves would not think so, or care about such distinctions). Then, perhaps, you could start playing around with thoughts like „what would it take to move this pc from this „cathegory/approach” to that? It is always easier, according to my humble expertise to move things and people to a closer spot other than the one they are at, than to a spot much further, so this „playing around” may provide you with inspiring insights on your pc-s, and with insights on individual methods to influence them in this regard, especially if you try it ingame and observe their reactions. It could be imperative in this context to determine whether they are conscious and well grounded in their philosophy, or are in their „cathegory” much more due to circumstance, habit etc.
2) Champions of Valor provides nice archetypes for „good heroes”, and perhaps the „Imperfect champion of Good” section could help you even more with determining the ideal direction you wish your players to move towards. Will it be a well defined general direction that each of the pc-s can connect to (each with her own approach, virtues and limitations) like a cause or ideal, or would you wish to plan an individual and much more defined destiny for all, based on their archetypes?
3) If you wished for a direct method of reminding them of the „dread” factor, then TAINT could be your answer (Heroes of Horror book). Introducing taint, corruption and degeneration (not necessarily all at once) is one sure way for you to make them cope with dread, while surely not making the campaign boring #61514; Another (perhaps a bit more subtle) way could be introducing NPC-s who are corrupted, degenerated and tainted, not necessarily/only in body, but in how they act, approach things, NPC-s that represent the „end of the way” for each archetypes of your pc-s. Introducing several „guys and groups to work for” could salt your soup, and theirs too, especially with NPC „bosses” of different alignments who are opposed to each other, with even mixing their demeanors, like „nice and shiny bad guys” and „distrustful or grumpy„ good guys, where their true colours will reveal only with time etc. Even evil could fight evil , like there can be bad guys in encounters just like them, „with almost no taint” and npcs „completely fallen”, where both might ask for their help getting rid of the other, or tainted „corrupt avenger types ( heroes of horror prc) in conflict with „pure fanatics” etc.
4) At the end, all should depend on your agenda, and the way you would wish to lead them on. I however do not usually thrive believing in „set unchangeable outcomes and results” in a campaign, but in series of events shaping themselves, where the DM is the captain of the ship, but can never be completely sure where the wind is blow ing from, or to what place it will take the party. However, having a well crafted map , is always good to have around.
It completely slipped my mind to use the bit from Champions of Ruin. And your step-by-step slippery slope method actually gave me some inspiration that I need to go refine.
As far as the end of the campaign, nothing is too concrete. I also dislike set in stone endings. My "fix" is that the next campaign will be the polar opposite; heroes trying to set right whatever happens in this Campaign.
As far as the type of evil I'm expecting, I'm not expecting them to do anything out of a unselfish motive. I expect them to be greedy, "what's in it for me" scoundrels. I have told them I'm not going to smile on X-Rated evil (rape, doing unspeakable things to children, that sort of evil) simply because I don't like dealing with those topics. |
| Vehiron |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 23:42:55
According to my humble opinion, your approach could depend on several factors:
1) How and in what way are you considering your PC-s to be evil (i.e what is their individual and not circumstantial direction besides „working for the bad guys” if any) ?
2) What is the direction you would like them to aim for, advance towards, or consider?
3) What is your individual and ideal approach for „influencing them, and their decisions”, and how much freedom exactly would you like them to have regarding the outcome?
4) Are you determined to have a certain outcome, or content in giving them an option to seriously consider things, and then rise higher or fall deeper depending on the answers they give to the moral challenges in the encounters you provide them with ?
Hooks for the factors:
1) If and when determining the „archetypes” of PC-s, and wishing to play around with psychological and moral lines (since according to my experience one needs to know the ingredients one wishes to cook from), I should suggest you to check out the Philosophies of Evil section in the Champions of Ruin Forgotten Realms book (page 5). You have a party, with different PC-s with different approaches, and although no PC might be fitted 100% into a category there like „I am not Evil” or „Driven to evil”, you might find „the closest” cathegory that each of the PC-s could fit into (even if they themselves would not think so, or care about such distinctions). Then, perhaps, you could start playing around with thoughts like „what would it take to move this pc from this „cathegory/approach” to that? It is always easier, according to my humble expertise to move things and people to a closer spot other than the one they are at, than to a spot much further, so this „playing around” may provide you with inspiring insights on your pc-s, and with insights on individual methods to influence them in this regard, especially if you try it ingame and observe their reactions. It could be imperative in this context to determine whether they are conscious and well grounded in their philosophy, or are in their „cathegory” much more due to circumstance, habit etc.
2) Champions of Valor provides nice archetypes for „good heroes”, and perhaps the „Imperfect champion of Good” section could help you even more with determining the ideal direction you wish your players to move towards. Will it be a well defined general direction that each of the pc-s can connect to (each with her own approach, virtues and limitations) like a cause or ideal, or would you wish to plan an individual and much more defined destiny for all, based on their archetypes?
3) If you wished for a direct method of reminding them of the „dread” factor, then TAINT could be your answer (Heroes of Horror book). Introducing taint, corruption and degeneration (not necessarily all at once) is one sure way for you to make them cope with dread, while surely not making the campaign boring #61514; Another (perhaps a bit more subtle) way could be introducing NPC-s who are corrupted, degenerated and tainted, not necessarily/only in body, but in how they act, approach things, NPC-s that represent the „end of the way” for each archetypes of your pc-s. Introducing several „guys and groups to work for” could salt your soup, and theirs too, especially with NPC „bosses” of different alignments who are opposed to each other, with even mixing their demeanors, like „nice and shiny bad guys” and „distrustful or grumpy„ good guys, where their true colours will reveal only with time etc. Even evil could fight evil , like there can be bad guys in encounters just like them, „with almost no taint” and npcs „completely fallen”, where both might ask for their help getting rid of the other, or tainted „corrupt avenger types ( heroes of horror prc) in conflict with „pure fanatics” etc.
4) At the end, all should depend on your agenda, and the way you would wish to lead them on. I however do not usually thrive believing in „set unchangeable outcomes and results” in a campaign, but in series of events shaping themselves, where the DM is the captain of the ship, but can never be completely sure where the wind is blow ing from, or to what place it will take the party. However, having a well crafted map , is always good to have around.
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| Aldrick |
Posted - 28 Sep 2014 : 17:37:52
In my experience the biggest difficulty in playing a game in D&D with evil characters is how players immediately create two-dimensional characters. They see an evil alignment, and they quickly start painting their characters as caricatures of themselves.
The number one thing you can do to make this work is to get players to see things through their characters eyes, and not through the eyes of an alignment. That is the number one mistake a player will make with an evil character. What ultimately leads a character toward evil is a world view, or some personality flaw that leads them to do bad things. Consistently. An evil alignment does not mean that they should not be horrified when someone starts putting babies on a spike. It simply means that when they find the SOB who put the babys on the spike, that killing him is not good enough - they have to torture and mutilate him slowly, before killing him and turning him into an example for others who do such horrible things.
Doing evil things for the sake of doing evil things should not be something a player pushes their character toward. A player should try and see the world through their characters eyes, and that character should do evil things because that character feels it is justified.
The second thing you will want to watch out for, and this is really a subset of the first problem - is the PC's turning on each other. This is a subset of the first problem, because some players begin to assume that because their character has an evil alignment that it must mean they will eventually want to betray and harm those they are with... usually without any seriously good justification. As a DM you're going to want to find ways to do a couple of things: First, you are going to want to build emotional bonds between the player characters. You want them to grow to depend on one another, and become friends. Second, you want to create situations where they MUST depend on one another; because they know if they do not -- they are screwed.
Sure, there might be a situation where the Half-Elf Cleric of Mask wants to knife the Hill Dwarf Fighter in his sleep. However, the Half-Elf should know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he needs said Hill Dwarf alive, because the moment he drops dead -- he himself is going to be screwed over. Therefore, whatever disagreements and squabbles they might have between one another, it is always secondary to the greater threats that they are facing off against. When tensions arise within the group, other characters within the group should want to actively find ways to smooth over those tensions because they themselves do not want to be at each others throats because they recognize the greater dangers that they face.
When it comes to making a character regret their life choices, that is somewhat tricky. It involves getting to know each character in depth, and finding things that the player of that character really cares about. Dealing with the Waterdhavian Rogue, as an example, I might try to introduce him to a new love interest. Unfortunately, said love interest happens to be married. Find ways to attack the character on an emotional level, and draw parallels where the character starts to have second thoughts about what he did to his wife and brother.
You need to find things -- little and big things -- that matter to them, and then present them in such a way that is emotionally compelling enough to the players that they have their characters begin to question their previous decisions. |
| fylth |
Posted - 28 Sep 2014 : 01:47:49
my last campaign we used evil characters. The Champions of Vaasa were without a doubt evil in that they had no qualms about violence, threats, underhanded deals, etc. Yet, from their eyes and actions and the world that shaped them, they only knew that what they were doing was good, and right. By their standards.
I would pit them against a lot of intimidating encounters with monsters that wouldn't care if it ate an orc or an elf, a priest or a cold blooded killer, and questionable situations. We had everything from burning an entire city and butchering its inhabitants out of revenge, to cannibalism, to smuggling, and nearly everything in between.
I found giving them a common enemy works quite well. I used the Shades. They had acquired a magical onyx box at some point, and when the Shades sent their agents to recover lost Netherese artifacts they were a target. At first I had a few hit-squads try to take the box back (the players didn't know its abilities for some time) and they kept surviving the attempts so I let them play a while without any more interference. Then just as they were finishing their time being conscripted, a huge party led by a powerful Shade confronted them and had they not have had a quick escape they would surely have been smeared.
After that they made it their mission to crush any Netherese they encounter. However the adventure took a different turn before they were able to raise an army against Netheril. (They did help a group of Many-Arrows orcs battle and defeat a Netherese force in the Nether Mountains, that was a two-table battle. lots of fun) |
| Delwa |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 01:40:36
Thanks for the advice! So far, they are content to work together. We had one PC that tried the "I am awesome by myself, I don't need your help" route and he learned the error of his ways at the hands of a NPC Monk. After that, everyone is happy to work together, but they each have their own agendas. I've made it pretty clear that there are foes they cannot handle out there. Thanks again! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 01:30:58
Ye seek to make the game more evil without making it less fun? An odd statement, since evil is *always* more fun than good.
All advice on a fun and successful evil (or half-evil) campaign basically boils down to one important guideline. Ensure the PCs are each and all aware of the real nature and capabilities of their nominal adventuring allies. And show little tolerance for them being nasty and lethal to each other, make it as hard as possible, never encourage or reward such betrayals, unite them against overpowered threats if all else fails and they insist on trying to poison each others potions, hire assassins to kill each other, sabotage gear, or sacrifice each other to lynch mobs for amusement and distraction. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 21:37:04
Great ideas, both of you! I might have to see about incorporating elements of both and see if I can get a feel for which way the party tips.
As for the bounty hunter, the reason he hasn't taken off on his own yet is simple convenience. The noble who put out the bounty has a second house in the next city, and it'll be easier to stay with the caravan for now. Additionally, the party as a whole has a scheme to try and turn the guy in for the bounty, then break the rogue out and keep going, and see if they can cash him in again at another location. Basically turn him in to two different parties for the same bounty twice. That isn't going to work as well as they think, but they don't need to know that yet.
I really like the farmers idea, and it really ties in well with a few other schemes I have rattling about in my head. The wolves idea really works for the current situation, I'll have to incorporate elements of that at tomorrow night's session.
The stealing trinkets thing would be awesome. I can say right now, everyone will be pointing fingers at the Kender and the Cleric, both are highly suspect already. It might be the tipping point I need. Stir them up just enough to get them wound up tight, then pull back and let their own paranoia work with the farmers idea.
I'm open to any more suggestions, but thanks again! This has been really helpful. |
| Thrasymachus |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 19:26:52
or go the opposite route with kindness...
They are part of a caravan. If it’s possible to break them off like…
Caravan Leader: “Stay in this town and get the wagon wheel fixed, and catch up”
Caravan Leader: “We’re expecting another wagon to join us at this point, but they’re not here. Give that tardy wagon two days to show up. If they don’t show after two days high tail it to <pick point down the route>”
After the break off (which will raise suspicions of the players) Come across a caravan of farmers that would appreciate an escort. Roleplay the interaction, and laughs of good old folk. Maybe the way the farmers come across is because they are faster, and actually passing the party on route.
Selling to the evil - Having 20 level zeros around are always good to have as fodder.
If you want to throw them through a loop, don’t attack the caravan. Dress up the journey with remains of those who were unlucky along the way for suspense. Wolf howls at night, maybe even a second group of farmers that want to join up mid journey suddenly come out of the morning mist. They know the first farmers, and well, if the first farmers like you, how bad can the players be?
But again, don’t attack the caravan. And along the way…
The farmers do the players laundry (Heck, throw it in the pile. T’aint no trouble)
The farmers cook better.
Don’t forget the farmer’s daughter.
The Farmer’s tell about a caravan short cut up ahead that they don’t use because it’s a tad risky, but the players might chance it. – Here’s a map. Maybe that map overlaps enough with another map (you introduce map#2 before or later) to allow the players to actually find something they are looking for.
Maybe a player breaks off (shockingly dividing the party doesn't always lead to disaster) with a farmer to hunt game. Still no need to attack. Just throw enough tough terrain to get a player a twisted ankle, allows a farmer to drag the backwoods stretcher back to camp.
Hearty handshakes, and a few humble gifts when they part ways. Maybe that humble gift has a tie in. Jeb says “You seem like a good sort, I want you to have my (ax, special coffee pot, ect)”. Here’s an invite to barn raising/wedding/local feast on the way back. – If the players act on it, maybe they spot the goblins marching onto Farmerville, and if the players warn the farmer’s, help with defenses, and fend off the goblins… well the rewards are modest, but people who will probably hide you later on, have their local healer resupply bandages, you know – all the good stuff for good people.
Maybe Jeb’s <insert item> comes back to haunt them (in a good way) later on with different NPC’s who question how they came across Jeb’s <insert item>. Player’s relate that it was a gift, and the reply is. *whistles* “Jeb musta thought pretty darn highly of you. He’s been carrying that <item> for years” *Get across to the players how their stock with the new NPC rises considerably*
The hurdle that you may have to contend with is that they are drow. I would go with the farmer’s either
(a) The farmer’s have heard about Drizzt and they’re fans of the legend, and willing to give the players a chance.
or more comedic potential
(b) The farmers think one of your drow is Drizzt, and fall over themselves to be helpful.
Pick as many Drizzt novels as canon, and the farmers are familiar with the stories as related by Bards. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 12:00:43
Well, it all depends on the players and the flavor of evil they decided to bring to the table, but something that may work would be constantly keeping them on the edge, with both their evil enemies and their evil allies doing their worst to make their life and journey miserable.
A minor failing on the players part may result in a bunch of elite drow warriors suddendly appearing out of nowhere and beating the player's ass just because.
The Zhents may have figured out the players aren't really disinterested mercs and may start to hinder them (a poison here, a sacred symbol "lost" there, a disease-tainted blanket sostituted for the player's one, ecc...).
Any small disagreement (even among the PCs themselves)should have the potential to lead to an open fight, and if the Zhents or other third parties witness such thing, they'll start exploiting this weakness (so, if the rogue quarrels with the dwarf, the next morning the metal chain with Tempus' symbol the dwarf wears on his beard "appears" in the rogue's belongings).
In short you should try to make it clear that being evil leads to a miserable life of no friends and many enemies. The problem with such approach is that depending on the players attitudes this may lead straight to a TPK started by the PC themselves, which carries with it the moral dilemma of the DM: should i let the players destroy the group if it happens organically and logically based on their characters and standard behaviours or should i strive to avoid such outcome even if it means forcing things?
Expanding on the plot-hook you related, i don't understand why the bounty-hunter shouldn't depart camp by night with the brother-in-law head in a sack and the infant in another one (or at least planning to do so at the first opportunity), IF the player of the bounty hunter isn't even considering something like this then you as a DM should start saying to him (no need fo the other players to know) that he's forging a strong partnership of mutual benefit with the other players and that's why he didn't even consider betraying the rogue, this should start to worm into the party the concept of friendship and loyalty that usually are foreign to evil characters.
If the bounty hunter is indeed planning to betray the party/the rogue then maybe you should try to show them the "just reward" for acting in such an evil way: the party has a minor skirmish with another party of adventurers that try to get the brother-in-law, the attackers flee and sometimes later the party stumbles upon a maimed beggar that is no other than the leader of the aforementioned attackers, reduced to begging without hands because their employer was displeased with their failure (an had no intention of paying them even had they succeeded) and killed all the survivors, torturing and maiming him as a lesson.
This should drive home the point that playing fair and having friends is better than "everyone on it's own, moar money for meh".
Eventually enough of these kind of things should either push someone to take on a more neutral bend (or change alignment) orresult in the players shrugging it off and going on pillaging, raping and maiming, not much you can do in the latter case. |
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