| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Razz |
Posted - 19 May 2014 : 01:41:47
Does the Realms have any deity current or past that would involve insects in its theme? For as many deities in the Realms I see, there are some really common portfolios not taken by current deities and something involving insects is one.
While we're on this topic, are there any deities that have grabbed the portfolio of being a "deity of monsters"? As in the de facto deity of monsters when there really is no origin deity for creatures? |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 20 Jun 2014 : 07:55:31
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Quite bizarrely i was going through the Forgotten Realms Adventures book and it has a section on Beast Cults.
It states that these cults believe there is a perfect example of each type of creature that they worship and they believe has power over other creatures of the same type.
So there is a perfect dog that embodies and has power over all dogs. Some people create a cult around it and worship this dog.
That sounds a lot like the Animal Lords from AD&D. In fact, the 1e Manual of the Planes specifically calls them the "Masters of the Cults of the Beast." I'm not sure if they were ever described in later editions.
Jeff |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jun 2014 : 08:44:50
Quite bizarrely i was going through the Forgotten Realms Adventures book and it has a section on Beast Cults.
It states that these cults believe there is a perfect example of each type of creature that they worship and they believe has power over other creatures of the same type.
So there is a perfect dog that embodies and has power over all dogs. Some people create a cult around it and worship this dog.
Now this perfect creature sounds like a Legendary version of said creature. Lurue was classified as a Beast Cult in early realms sourcebooks. Therefore she was the perfect embodiment of a unicorn.
Thats why i classify these creatures as primordials. They are powerful, they do not die of old age (although they can be killed) and they seem to have some kind of power over the creature they represent (although they do not appear to be divine).
There was a surge of beast cult worship in Mulhorand which led to Bast absorbing the embodiment of cats (Felidae) and turning into Sharess.
Again mentioning Uthgar, he sought out and subdued a number of Beast Cult idols and appears to have gained power from it.
Whatever these Beast Cult idols are, they arent gods, but they are close to it.
Im busy formulating some ideas on godhood. Expressing power levels in pure HD we have
1 - Demi Powers (20+ HD)
2 - Lesser Powers (40+ HD)
3 - Intermediate Powers (50+ HD)
4 - Greater Powers (60+ HD)
Now levels are gained by accruing experience points. You get enough experience to gain a level and poof you gain a level. When you get to high levels you need massive amounts of experience that mean you generally dont gain more than one level every hundred years.
What if experience and worship correlated directly. What if one worshipper or act of worship, or act that represented your portfolio equalled one experience point.
Now we have mortals that are approaching or even exceed divine levels of power rivalling some demigods and maybe even lesser gods. Why dont these beings become gods?
They probably could if they wanted to but i think being a god is expensive, experience point wise. Creating and maintaining a Home Plane must burn a lot of experience every single day and you need a certain number of worshippers to maintain your experience level. This can be offset by making Toril your Home Plane, but still, every divine act must use up a certain amount of experience.
Without enough worshippers to bring in a lot of experience each day, a demipower with few worshippers that is particularly deifically active would burn up and die within a year. Look at Velsharoon, Talos obviously tried to involve him in lots of plots that required him to perform miracles which was eating into his xp reserve. So Velsharoon switched to Mystra as his patron so he could step back for a bit and build up his worshipper base.
Primordials of course can have any amount of xp and so if they ascend (as many primordials have - look at Shar and Selune) they start out at a much greater power level than their worshippers would warrant.
Divine miracles they perform and other acts gradually burn into their experience (reducing their HD/level) until either they gain enough worshippers (because of the miracles) or they ease up on the miracles and achieve an equilibrium between power in and power expended.
I reckon thats why Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul went around killing and binding primordial creatures. They were increasing their own power levels in preparation for godhood. This then allowed them to perform lots of miracles to accrue worshippers, because they would begin with none. |
| Calmar |
Posted - 18 Jun 2014 : 22:49:57
If I'm not mistaken, Obox-ob is the Prince of Vermin. He's even on Wikipedia. :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obox-ob |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 May 2014 : 08:29:58
Oh i definitely have no intention of trying to make 4e lore work seamlessly with the realms. 4e sucks plain and simple.
However primordials happen to explain quite a bit about previous realms editions.
In all the 2nd edition realms sourcebooks there are mentions of quasi deities without any kind of definition about what they might be. I just happen to think that primordials explain what they are and are one of the few good ideas to come out of 4e.
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| Razz |
Posted - 22 May 2014 : 02:12:44
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
When that article was written "primordials" had not yet been invented by Hasbro
Agreed. However, it seems WotC has taken liberty to take a lot of older FR lore and squeeze in the "Primordial vs Gods" storyline inside of them as much as possible.
And since we are stuck with it being the official lore now in the Realms, people have been trying to make the idea seamlessly work into pre-existing lore.
It sucks, at least I think so, but the effort is commendable. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 21 May 2014 : 01:04:29
When that article was written "primordials" had not yet been invented by Hasbro |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 May 2014 : 00:24:38
I guess one thing to point out is that when it comes to beast/animal cults we don't find many that divide them down along class lines (and class may not be a good term for it). What I mean by that is we don't see a god of mammals. However, that being said, we do see things like a god of birds or a god of fish. However, we're more likely to see someone who is over an "order" of animals... a god of bears... a god of arachnids... a god of cats.... a god of dogs.... OR in another perspective a god over wild animals (Malar) versus a god over tamed animals/cattle (Chauntea). Thus, when it comes to insects, I'd generally expect to see someone over poisonous insects... another over swarming/hiveminded insects.... another over insects that aid pollination (bees and butterflies, for instance).... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 May 2014 : 12:01:28
Ooh, dragon 54, never read that one. Nice article. Gives me a lot more information for primordials of the realms. I figure all the beast cults are centred around primordials (why worship a normal cow when you can worship a super cow - even if he doesnt answer your prayers or grant you spells you can still advance to level 2 as a priest i believe - at least according to 2nd edition).
Uthgar himself subdued a number of these beast cults and it wouldnt even be worth a mention if he went out and subdued a normal bear that was coloured blue (especially considering Uthgar took on a frost giant single handed). However if that Blue Bear was some ancient primordial blue bear with amazing powers and strength that had attracted a cult around it then it is worthy of mentioning.
The way i see it is demipower on the material plane = primordial (obviously not in all cases but as a general rule its not far off) |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 20 May 2014 : 11:49:36
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
A beast cult, interesting. I need to get more info on the Beast Cults of Faerun, mainly which ones exist and where are they centralized?
A lot of the mere only mentioned in this article and contains name and area of interest. Unfortunately the whole beast cult thing never really got developed in later Realms products. Too bad, I would have loved there to have been cults all over the place (which I of course included in my homeversion). |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 20 May 2014 : 07:26:44
Since Nnuuurrrr is not mentioned other than in that Dragon magazine article in passing I doubt you'd find such information. Perhaps you should just decide for yourself? The realms are a blue print for you to create a campaign around not all the details that would be contained in an entire world are ever going to be elucidated. Presumably Nnuuurrrr is feared wherever insect plagues are a problem which could be anywhere. |
| Razz |
Posted - 20 May 2014 : 00:52:43
A beast cult, interesting. I need to get more info on the Beast Cults of Faerun, mainly which ones exist and where are they centralized? |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 19 May 2014 : 06:24:07
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Nnuuurrrr's's
A beast cult of insects mentioned by Ed in the old Dragon article that first detailed the Realmsian pantheon (54 if I remember correctly).
Yep, it's in Dragon #54 (I only know this because I occasionally use it as a reference for creating my own world's pantheon). |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 19 May 2014 : 05:55:14
Nnuuurrrr's's
A beast cult of insects mentioned by Ed in the old Dragon article that first detailed the Realmsian pantheon (54 if I remember correctly). |
| Razz |
Posted - 19 May 2014 : 04:01:53
Well what I mean is, not someone that worships monsters but a "Mother of Monsters" type deity that is worshipped by, well, monsters.
Closest I can find is "marauding monsters" as servants of Malar, which is good enough. Being a primal deity from the beginning of Toril, I can see him being a progenitor of many of the monsters currently in the Realms.
As for insects, I am not looking for something that insects worship, I am curious as to which deity has insects as part of their nature? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 May 2014 : 02:55:58
I don't really see anyone covering all insects or all monsters... The point of holding a portfolio is to gain power when people worship (or otherwise invoke) that portfolio...
While someone into plagues might be into locusts, flies, and mosquitoes, they're not paying attention to ladybugs, butterflies, and dragonflies. And beetles and ants aren't going to be paid attention to by anyone other than nature types -- and even then, they'd likely pay attention to things further up the food chain, because it's easier to overhunt all the deer in an area than it is to wipe out all the ants.
So while some insects might be regarded as furthering aspects of a deity's portfolio, I don't see anyone worshiping all bugs.
Ditto for monsters... While Malar is the obvious choice, not all monsters are savage hunters, and that's his gig. Some intelligent monsters have their own deities, some follow Lurue, and others aren't intelligent enough to worship anyone.
Similarly, it's not likely that someone will worship all monsters, and even if they did, monster isn't a universally-agreed on term. Some would see drow as monsters. Some would see elves as monsters. Some might see griffons as monsters, while others would regard them as noble steeds and companions. Even a swarm of insects, or giant insects, could be regarded as monsters. Dragons could be called monsters, but so could giant rats -- and it's not recommended to compare a dragon to a giant rat, at least in the earshot of a dragon. Some might see a werebear as a monster, not realizing it's an intelligent person who wants to help them. Most would call undead monsters, but they generally are covered by some deity.
So for insects and monsters, I can see some deities claiming certain ones, but not all of them across the board. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 May 2014 : 02:05:15
As goddess of poison and plagues, I could see Talona fulfilling that role. Sending locusts as a plague. If there are insectile people with some kind of venomous bite. Also, being such as Malar and Silvanus. |
