| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kreindis |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 14:13:43
Hi, I had a few questions regarding divine classes and their concept limitations or expectations.
I know the general concept of each divine class but there are a few more intricate things that I've been wondering about and haven't been able to figure out on my own.
First, would it be possible for a 3rd Edition Paladin of Kossuth to exist? As far as I know, Kossuth doesn't have a Paladin Order, and is not a LG,NG, or LN god, but one of his clerical alignments is LG so I was wondering if the concept made any sense at all.
Second, does a Cleric have to be part of a deity's church without question? Or can a character still qualify as a Cleric without being a part of an order, or a church, and solely relying on their devotion to their deity?
And a follow up question to that would be : Are all clerics expected to be pious to a fault? For example, regardless of their personal feelings on the matter, would all clerics of a single deity be expected to perform or be involved in holy ceremonies or rites without question? And if they do not, would they lose favor with their deity and no longer be a cleric?
Finally, are Divine Champions expected to be just as zealous as a Paladin would be to their deity, or could they conceivably have a less strict religious priority? Again, another example I could think of for this would be : Someone who follows Torm, believes in Torm's dogma, attends church sometimes, adventures for the sake of self-profit (as in, they sometimes would donate to the church but its not the highest priority for them), will fervently attack or at least not associate with Torm's enemies, and prays to Torm on their own time.
Hopefully that conveys my questions well enough. I hope it does anyway, and I appreciate any help given!
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| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 17:23:45
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
You do realize that Unearthed Arcana has different paladin archetypes (CG, LE, CE), and they're all in the online SRD?
Yes (and they're fun to use) as well as there are actually paladins of multiple alignments in previous editions to 3E as well. However they were supposed to be used strictly as NPCs but the mechanics where there to create them into PCs as well. It was in some Dragon content I found a while go while arguing about whether or not the D&D:Next Paladin should be saddled with the LG-only trope once again. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 17:20:04
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Personally, I've never been a fan of the forced LG trope Paladins were saddled with. In my games, be they 3rd Edition, Pathfinder, or 4th Edition I allow Paladins of every alignment.
My thoughts exactly. I strongly dislike the LG trope and I'm more inclined to make paladins divine champions, instead.
That's the way I've always seen them. I get the whole "Charlemagne's Court" thing but when one actually reads about Charlemagne.....well the whole notion is completely ridiculous. Charlemagne himself had wedded multiple women (marriages annulled to he can marry again within the church), had legitimate children (so much for not coveting thy neighbor's wife), had forced foreign religion on other people upon pain of death (which led to such events like the Massacre of Verden), and it's funny that his brother, whom he ruled in conjunction with died mysteriously.
So he's about as far away as what one might deem a "traditional" paladin in D&D terms yet it's what a lot of people point to when the idea of a LG-only Paladin is brought up. Further, if one looks at the etymology of the word, it can be linked back to Rome as someone who was official to the Roman Emperor (perhaps as a bodyguard or close associate). So while I see where D&D took liberties with the idea and whole European Romanticism flavor that is often assigned to the word Paladin, I still have a hard time swallowing the whole forced LG trope because it's reality is based on no such notion.
This is why I heavily favor the whole Crusader (no connection to the v3.5 Class of the same name) idea because Charlemagne DID fight for his beliefs and his religion and went to war to spread his religion as much as possible. This zealousness is something I feel holds more water and flavor for what D&D Paladins ultimately stand for. Especially in the Forgotten Realms where they must have a Patron deity to pray to. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 09:12:49
You do realize that Unearthed Arcana has different paladin archetypes (CG, LE, CE), and they're all in the online SRD? |
| Zireael |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 08:31:06
quote:
Personally, I've never been a fan of the forced LG trope Paladins were saddled with. In my games, be they 3rd Edition, Pathfinder, or 4th Edition I allow Paladins of every alignment.
My thoughts exactly. I strongly dislike the LG trope and I'm more inclined to make paladins divine champions, instead. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 04:34:41
quote:
Originally posted by Kreindis
First, would it be possible for a 3rd Edition Paladin of Kossuth to exist? As far as I know, Kossuth doesn't have a Paladin Order, and is not a LG,NG, or LN god, but one of his clerical alignments is LG so I was wondering if the concept made any sense at all.
True - but the very fact that elemental powers usually don't give a jack about anything leaves space to mortals' misconceptions imagination.  There are no paladins of Kossuth IIRC, but there is a LG monastic order (along with LN and LE ones). Though you may just as well consider possibility that they actually serve archomental, Zaaman Rul, why not.
quote:
Second, does a Cleric have to be part of a deity's church without question? Or can a character still qualify as a Cleric without being a part of an order, or a church, and solely relying on their devotion to their deity?
Deities had to establish their churches somehow...
Of course, there got to be a lot of "wandering" clerics not affiliated woth any particular hierarchy - both adventuring and proseletizing, village clerics who may have tenuous communication with their bigger organizations, hermits, undercover priests in the areas where their faith is persecuted may have no stable connections with others, etc...
quote:
And a follow up question to that would be : Are all clerics expected to be pious to a fault? For example, regardless of their personal feelings on the matter, would all clerics of a single deity be expected to perform or be involved in holy ceremonies or rites without question? And if they do not, would they lose favor with their deity and no longer be a cleric?
Uh, venerating a deity is what they do. They mean it, that's the whole point.
Of course, the specific forms may adapt to the circumstances - as in, one priest in the field cannot be reasonably expected to start a grand ceremony with gold-trimmed robes, dozen of braziers and chorus, so it can be reduced to burning a candle before the holy symbol while chanting, that sort of things. Conversely, an archpriest in a big temple on a scheduled celebration ceremony will probably go for overkill in decorations, if only to "show others how cool it is", and may simply try to outdo an archpriest of another city in grand show.
Same goes for ceremonies with expected immediate effect - "Material component" describes the lower limit, IMHO. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 22:06:09
quote:
Originally posted by Kreindis
First, would it be possible for a 3rd Edition Paladin of Kossuth to exist? As far as I know, Kossuth doesn't have a Paladin Order, and is not a LG,NG, or LN god, but one of his clerical alignments is LG so I was wondering if the concept made any sense at all.
As a player, it would depend on the DM. As a DM, I don't see why not. Personally, I've never been a fan of the forced LG trope Paladins were saddled with. In my games, be they 3rd Edition, Pathfinder, or 4th Edition I allow Paladins of every alignment. But even with the restriction of LG, I feel that there are enough 'qualities' consistant with Kossuth to make a Paladin in the traditional sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Kreindis
Second, does a Cleric have to be part of a deity's church without question? Or can a character still qualify as a Cleric without being a part of an order, or a church, and solely relying on their devotion to their deity?
As others have stated, it's not a requirement though I'd think many would so they have a good base of operations from which to work from and for. Further, with 3rd Edition, I like to use the Organization rules detailed in the DMG 2 to create interesting benefits that one gets from doing the church's deeds. But specifically, they don't need a church or affiliation to work from.
quote:
Originally posted by Kreindis
And a follow up question to that would be : Are all clerics expected to be pious to a fault? For example, regardless of their personal feelings on the matter, would all clerics of a single deity be expected to perform or be involved in holy ceremonies or rites without question? And if they do not, would they lose favor with their deity and no longer be a cleric?
I think it depends on the deity the Cleric worships. A cleric of Tempus, God of War and battles will probably act differently than a cleric of Mystra. In fact, from reading the Cleric Quintet series by R.A. Salvatore the main character is a Cleric who continually questions his deity and devotion to a greater truth and purpose. So whether or not he comes off as say....'Preachy' is more or less up to the player. I think a Cleric of Tempus wouldn't be consistently preaching about Tempus, but would be more of a man of action or even stoic with his dealings of others.
quote:
Originally posted by Kreindis
Finally, are Divine Champions expected to be just as zealous as a Paladin would be to their deity, or could they conceivably have a less strict religious priority? Again, another example I could think of for this would be : Someone who follows Torm, believes in Torm's dogma, attends church sometimes, adventures for the sake of self-profit (as in, they sometimes would donate to the church but its not the highest priority for them), will fervently attack or at least not associate with Torm's enemies, and prays to Torm on their own time.
A Divine Champion isn't required to be strictly adherent to the tenets of their patron's dogma but I don't see why they wouldn't. The way I look at it is a Divine Champion was something else and probably came into this religious life and was somehow touched or transformed into a weapon for a specific deity. The deity knows that the person might have once held different beliefs prior to becoming their champion and might still fall back into their old ways from time to time. So in that light, I think a deity would probably be a bit more forgiving of any lack of piety or wrongdoing (so long as it's not completely off the walls against what the deity believes in).
This is different than a Paladin because I feel a deity invests a LOT more into the power gained and used by that class. They start out being religions and zealous in their pursuit to further their deities or their own goals (as based on their Alignment).
Anyways, hope that helps answer some of your questions. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 20:25:20
Hail and well met, welcome to Candlekeep!
First, in my homebrew there are 'paladins' of every alignment (they go by different names though) and thus every faith can have them.
Second, there can be 'generic' clerics that worship concepts more so than gods. My homebrew is a bit different on that score though.
Third, doubtful they would be stripped of their clerical ability. I think you have to ask yourself why their god gave them power in the first place. It could be that the deity has use for an unorthodox cleric. DMs call in the end.
Fourth, I look at divine champions as a type of paladin and thus they get similar treatment. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 18:15:59
I'd stress here that there can be holy warriors of other deities, but they aren't paladins. I can't see a paladin of Kossuth. However, Complete Champion gives several options for a faithful of another class that serves a deity. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 16:46:57
In 3e FR canon, I'm prett sure there's alist of Gods that have Paladins, and Kussuth isn't in it.
But you're the DM. I personally don't bother much with the "one step rule" or other rigid rules regarding gods and allowed alignemets/classes. I've had a Lawful Good Paladin of Lliira playing in my campaign, and he held all the beliefs of the Church while still being a paladin. He thought freedom and joy were paramount, but that someone had to protect others' right to it. Seemed very sensible to me. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 15:56:13
If you're a player, the answers will depend on your DM.
If you're the DM, you can determine the answers for yourself.
But input is always good either way, right? So here's my input, FWIW.
1. Sure. Theoretically, a paladin can be devoted to any deity. If it's an evil deity, then the paladin gets warped into a blackguard. Lawful alignments work best, but if you were a player in one of my games and wanted to be a paladin of a very chaotic deity, I would allow it if you could explain how the paradox works in your mind. Selune is written as CG but I don't have a problem with paladins of Selune. A paladin of Lliira (CG) might be challenging, but a blackguard of Beshaba (CE) or Shar (NE) works fine in my mind. A paladin of Kossuth could be interesting. If you have access to Power of Faerūn, Chapter 3 might provide some interesting ideas.
2. Nope. From the PH description of clerics: "Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These characters... are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship." Under paladins: "A paladin need not devote herself to a single deity devotion to righteousness is enough."
3. I wouldn't think so. Back to Lliira for a decent example; Sharess would be another. Priestesses of these deities can find plenty of excuses to be tardy or absent for a service, or leave a chore undone for an hour or a day, and it would be entirely understandable. The top priorities of those goddesses, and the primary duties of their clergies, is not strict adherence to rules, but rather to celebrate life and freedom and personal empowerment, and spread joy. If you skip out on a chore here and there in favor of making the world a happier place, then good on you.
Divine Champions are basically junior paladins. The keys are physical prowess and dedication to the deity's ideals. According to the FRCS description, they have to actually have a patron power... apparently a philosophy isn't good enough. I might drop that requirement for my own games, but I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other. But your example is Torm: a divine champion of Torm should exemplify the ideals of Torm in every way. Duty is key, so I would think attendance of (and perhaps participation in) church services when the character is in town would be expected. Tithing is maybe negotiable, but probably strongly encouraged by the mainstream church hierarchy. Allowances would undoubtedly be made for adventurers who valiantly protected the innocent and eradicated the enemies. And therein lies the answer for adventurers dedicated to Torm, who don't want to be bogged down in church services or donate their capital gains to the priesthood: don't spend time in cities that have temples of Torm. That's just my take on Torm's church... honorable and dedicated to the common good, but strict, with especially high expectations on their priests and paladins, etc.
Again, all just my read.
Edit to add this part:
quote:
And if they do not, would they lose favor with their deity and no longer be a cleric?
Deities should care about what their servants (cleric or otherwise) do in support of the deity's interests. If a character serves a deity wholeheartedly, but doesn't "play well with others" then he/she might not get as much respect from the church as a more involved individual does, but the deity still favors that character as one of his/her own. That's how I play the powers, anyway, because it makes sense to me. Deities are selfish: what matters is that you serve them; dedication to the church is secondary. |
| Lothlos |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 15:52:14
My personal home rule is that Paladins do exist for all faiths. In my view Paladins are the military branch or holy/unholy warriors of their faith - zealots if you will. Thus any deity could have a paladin. For me all paladins are lawful in that they follow the tenants of their religion, but they can have any alignment that their deity allows.
It seems to work well and it makes sense that a zealous follower would adhere to the teachings of their deity whether it be chaos or justice. |
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