| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 11:06:23
After working on the Spirit Realms i decided to get my ideas together for the history of the Giants.
So first let me state this is not canon in any way (although loosely based). Secondly i took liberties with several broken historical dates to blend the giant lore together. And thirdly as always i am only concerned with Toril so what happens on other planets has no bearing for my world.
Anyways, here is a history i am working on for Ostoria and the events that are sort of alluded to in Giantcraft and GHoTR, but mixed with lore about the giant pantheon so the two can be considered one.
Oh and if anyone read the Spirit Realms thread they might notice i made a big mistake regarding the dates of Vergbeed and Fomorian creation (they were polluted about 500 years before Othea created them - whoops) but i rectified that here.
So feel free to vent your fury. I tried to include allusions to the creation of hill giant and minotaur and other history in the Monster Mythology book. I also tried to reconcile the history in giantcraft and GHoTR with the Draconomicon where it states all dragons were originally red, and the dragon war seems to back this up by only stating red dragons took part (only one subrace against the whole of giant kind seems like dragons would lose to me, unless all dragons were red as draconomicon states).
Anyways as i said earlier, the canon was broken so i trashed it and started again. Its so far back in antiquity that it doesnt affect modern day Faerun anyway.
-31,000 DR: The batrachi, make contact with the primordial Asgorath to aid them in their war with primordial’s native to Abeir-Toril. Asgorath uses his breath weapon to blast the crystal-ice moon Zotha and fires it at the planet’s surface. The ice moon shatters and millions of shards of crystal ice shred Asgorath’s form slaying him instantly.
The remains of Zotha’s moon plunge towards Abeir Toril and impact in the centre of the Inner Seas forming the largest inland sea on the planet. Ao shifts Abeir and Toril apart to save the planet from destruction in the war between batrachi and primordial. In doing so Ao shifts Faerie further away from Toril, creatures can no longer merely walk between the two planes in places where the veil between the two worlds is thin. From this moment on Portals are required for transport between the two planes.
- The impact of the meteor also shifts the planetary alignment and sends up vast clouds of dust. For the next millennia temperatures around Toril drop considerably which slow the amount of melt water entering the Hordelands basin which accelerates the rate at which that vast wetlands is drying out.
- Unique dracoform creatures crawl out of craters across Faerûn where the crystal shards of Zotha covered with Asgorath’s blood struck Toril. These creatures have anywhere between 2 and 20 legs, 1 and 10 heads, winged or wingless, some with breath weapons. These dracoforms quickly spread across Faerûn and multiple. Over a millennia through natural selection and competition of other dracoforms many of these new species die out until a dominant species resembling a land wyrm emerges.
-30,000 DR: Annam sires his giant primordial children with Othea and founds Ostoria in their honour. Lanaxis (Stronmaus), Obadai (Skoraeus Stonebones), Ottar (Thrym), Masud (Surtr), Nicias, Vilmos, Dunmore, Arno/Julian, Ruk (Grolantor), Karontor, Hiatea, Iallanis, Memnor.
- In the Moonsea, several of the first landwyrms and therefore the most intelligent and powerful of their species assemble at inland sea now known as the Moonsea. There they seek to remake dracoform in the image of their god Asgorath merging examples of all the differing dracoforms remaining and imbuing it with innate magical abilities.
Their creation is the first true dragon, a being known as Garyx, scarlet dragon whose colour is so dark he is almost black when viewed from afar. He possess flight, fiery breath, magical powers and immense physical and mental strength. However one of his creator's also tricked the others and imbued him with immense greed and a desire to own and control everything.
-28,000 DR: Ostoria reaches its height stretching from the present day Cold Lands to the Vilhon Reach, although no giant dares enter the Greater Riildath forest.
- Annam divides Ostoria into sub kingdoms amongst his children. Lanaxis claims the cold plains of Vaasa, Damara, and Peluvria and overall rule of Ostoria although Annam still rules everything he takes a step back from day to day affairs.
- Garyx and his dragon children are driven from the Sea of Dragons (later known as the Moonsea) by Annam, who founds the Ostorian subkingdom of Helligheim in the area. Garyx flees to the Vilhon Reach and the dragons multiply.
c. –27000 DR: Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time). Although most green elves are content to remain in small scattered tribes, one group known as the Ilythiiri negotiates with the dragons and begins to carve out a small kingdom in the south. The great Ilythiiri capital at Atorrnash remains a shining beacon of elf culture for millennia.
- The Lythar clan of wild elves enter a portal in the Shaar and appear in the Unapproachable East in the Greater Riildath forest.
- Cegliune enters Toril through a portal from Faerie, desperate to escape the shadow of Titania. Arriving in the Unapproachable east she sets out to destroy all that the fey have created on Toril. Cegliune begins searching for disaffected fey and evil creatures of all races.
-26000 DR to –25000 DR: Thousand Year War: The immense red dragon Garyx; first of his kind, leads red dragons in battle against the giants of Ostoria. Eventually all of dragonkind is drawn into the conflict, which rages on and off for a thousand years. Upon its conclusion, Ostoria has shrunk to only a shadow of its former self. The Colossal Kingdom now occupies only the northernmost edge of the continent (present-day Great Glacier and the Cold Lands).
- The war with dragonkind begins with Grolantor/Ruk who rules the kingdom of Darchar where Garyx and his brood also dwell. The dragons (all red at this moment in time) naturally compete with the hill giants for homes in this territory and so Ruk declares war. His subkingdom of Darchar is the first to fall to the flight of dragons called by Garyx; the first true dragon to be born and therefore the most powerful and ancient in existence.
c. –26000 DR: Othea, mother of giantkind, pursues a series of unsatisfying affairs with various powers such as Vaprak, father of the ogre race.
- The thousand year war between dragons and the giants of Ostoria begins.
- Cegliune encounters the Narathmault and the entrance to the collapsed Sarrukh caverns beneath the Greater Riildath. She encounters the ethereal spirit of Chupoclops and the two evils enter into a pact of mutual aid.
- Angered at Othea's betrayal, Annam degenerates the ogres and trolls of Faerun into their current bestial form with a massive cry of rage. A few elder ogres survive by fleeing to other planes or entering into stasis deep beneath the surface to escape the shockwaves.
c. –25500 DR: Othea begins an affair with Ulutiu [–2550], a minor sea god of the Savage Frontier. The union of Othea and Ulutiu ultimately produces four sons: firbolg, verbeeg, voadkyn, and fomorian.
- Ruk; the hill giant son of Annam loses his subkingdom of Ostoria to the flight of Red dragons. For his incompetence and stupidity he is exiled from Ostoria and forced to wander Toril. His radiant (non identical) twin brother Karontor chooses to accompany him and the outcast hill giants in the hope that he will be able to save his brother from his stupidity and anger.
- The hill giant son of Annam and his twin brother, and the hill giants flee south into the Riildath forest. There they encounter Cegliune and the desperate primordial giant brothers and Cegliune aid each other in their endeavours. They pollute the hill giant race by mating with Cegliune. The unknown radiant brother works with Cegliune's dark magic abilities to curse the Fomorian and Verbeeg giant kin into their current twisted forms in the hopes of currying favour with the sons of Annam. Instead he himself is cursed by his giant brothers so that his appearance matches his twisted heart and his name is stricken from all written records of the giant realms.
- Hags begin to appear in the Greater Riildath forest. The first and most powerful of Cegliune's hag children are fully grown twin girls that quickly take to the arcane arts and soon their abilities begin to rival their mother.
- Ruk continues south towards Thay and encounters the remnants of the Okothian Sarrukh, here he pollutes the hill giant race further by entering into experiments with them and mating with twisted serpent creatures. One such by product of this magical experimentation is the minotaur race.
- - Xymor; one of the children of Garyx, recognising the extinction of dragons if Garyx pursues his genocidal war with the giants, searches for a means to save the dragons from themselves and Garyx’s madness. He searches for a piece of purity of their progenity; Asgorath. His search takes him to the area that will become the Moonsea and in the depths of the volcanic seas in that area he locates a crystal shard still stained with Asgorath’s blood.
Using this crystal shard and a powerful ritual variant used ages ago by Lendys and the other landwyrms, he attempts to merge himself with pieces of Asgorath to make himself closer to the worldshaper, and also to give him the power to create life.
Unable to control the powerful ritual, he succeeds in purging himself of almost all his evil nature and is reborn as Bahamut the Platinum Dragon, but these aspects reform next to him into his twin sister Tiamat, anathema to everything he now represents, a vile bloated abomination of multiple colours and draconic heads. The two immediately battle to a stalemate (a battle that continues to this day), eventually Bahamut flees the area.
Both Bahamut and Tiamat attract followers among the other dragons and produce various subraces of dragons.
-25,400 DR: After 99 years of magical experimentation Cegliune and her twin daughters create the first Night Twist trees using the blood of Chupoclops. The trees are planted in the Riildath forest and begin slaying any being that slumbers nearby with twisted nightmares of their worst fears given form.
-25,300 DR: Fey numbers in the lands around modern day The Great Dale begin to dwindle as larger numbers of Night Twists are planted in the forests above. The lesser fey turn to the primordial protectors of the forest for aid but even these great creatures are at a loss as to the source of the deaths.
- A conclave is called by all the "lords" of the spirit realms. During the meeting a twisted and evil hag announces herself as the daughter of Cegliune. Concerned that her mother is wary of her growing power she escaped to warn the fey of what Cegliune has done in return for their protection. Secretly this daughter had made a pact with an infernal being of immense power to provide her with power enough to surpass and survive her mother. In return she was to stop the reduction in soul traffic of humanoids in the Riildath (what would normally pass to the outer planes instead is being eaten by Chupoclops).
- The primordials and their subjects and the hag princess and her hag rebels march to Narathmault and the Riildath. Casualties are high among the fey and the humanoids as those that sleep are quickly slain.
-25,299 DR: The Battle of the Narathmault: The forces of Bheuristay and the spirit realms engage in the caverns beneath Narathmault. The seven primordials that make it to the central chamber die battling Chupoclops who they kill with the last stroke. Cegliune flees leaving her children to disperse after the battle is lost. The Hag Princess leaves for the outer planes with a number of her followers.
- Fenmarel Mestarine rewards those of clan Lythar by altering their essence enough to distinguish them from the rest of Araushnee's children, erasing the taint of Lolth from within. From that day forward the lythari are able to take the form of wolves and spread east and west across Faerûn.
- Magnar the Bear similarly rewards his humanoid followers for their dedication by fusing them with the spirit of the bear. These bear like people initially choose to defend the caverns beneath Narathmault but soon spread to other lands through the Underdark.
- The death of Relkath of the Branches splits his form into several beings each representing an individual portion of the Greater Riildath wood, because of this separation he is now known as Relkath of the infinite branches. Only Relkath of Aglarond and the Woodman of Rashemen survived into the modern era
-25100 DR: The war between dragonkind and the giants still rages across Faerun, very slowly the giants have been losing territory, but the numbers of dragons is also starting to dwindle. The younger dragons are not nearly powerful enough to compete against fully grown giants that reach maturity much quicker. The war reaches a stalemate point that threatens both races with destruction.
- Othea and Ulutiu plot to remove Annam from Faerûn and allow them to dwell together in peace. For millennia Annam had resisted the pull of godhood because of his lust for life and material plane pleasures. However Othea reasoned to him that if he were to become a god he could save Ostoria and giantking from the dragons.
- Othea also hinted to Garyx of Annam’s plan; Garyx desired to end the war quickly for fear of a civil war brewing amongst his own dragonkind between the ever increasing numbers of chromatic and metallic dragons sired by Tiamat and Bahamut; and thus the stage was set for a climactic battle in the Tortured Lands wherein the winner would be elevated to godhood by the adoration of his subjects. For the first time since the war began the two primordials; Annam and Garyx face each other on the field of battle with thousands of their warriors. As the battle approached its Zenith; Annam spied Othea and Ulutiu together smiling in the distance and knew he was betrayed. Annam fled the battle and Garyx and his dragons were left victorious, Annam bore down on Ulutiu and slew him with such a blow that it shattered his floating ziggurat home of Sheol-Div with a great tempest bore from the turbulence of the blow. Ulutiu’s body sank beneath the waters and the Great Glacier was formed.
- Awed by the display of such power Annam ascends through the worship of his giant subjects he tricks Othea into bearing his final son and hopeful saviour of Ostoria and giantkind.
- The remains of the Sarrukh and the Ba'etith organisation unleash their secret weapon upon the victors of this great battle hoping to end the threat of the dragons after their victory over the giants. A unique dragon like creature named Orslinn is unleashed upon the dragons and Garyx. This monstrous draconic engine of destruction enhanced by Sarrukh magic and grafts fought even the ancient Garyx to a standstill and his massive claws and teeth slew many of the remaining dragons. For a tenday the behemoths battled each other until Garyx disappeared in gouts of flame and electricity from Orslinn's breath. The Sarrukh thought themselves victorious but in truth Garyx ascended to divinity raised by the fervour of his dragon children inspired by such a battle.
Although the Sarrukh win the battlefield that day they are too few in number to battle the remaining giants and the growing factions of metallic and chromatic dragons
- Such death and destruction of dragonkind on a massive scale inspires belief in the remaining dragons that day to cause the creation of at least two draconic gods of death; one a dragon of pure shadow, another a huge draconic skeleton. Over time these two gods would merge to become the draconic god Null.
-25025 DR: With Annam gone and the Great Glacier rapidly expanding the giants quickly lose subkingdom after subkingdom to the dragons. Annam and Garyx battle in the heavens countering each others efforts to provide aid to their children. Soon only Lanaxis’ kingdom was left and even his capital of Voninheim was threated.
- Calling an assembly at his winter palace (in modern day Hartsvale), Lanaxis and the primordial children of Annam (except Ruk and Karontor, although some unpolluted hill giant children of Ruk's attend) and their giant children to discuss what is to be done about the Great Glacier and the dragons. Othea forbids any giant to set foot upon the Great Glacier which derail Lanaxis’ plans to save Ostoria.
- 25000 DR: Lanaxis poisons Othea however the poison affects all the primordial children of Annam and Othea making the giants mortal. Othea curses Lanaxis and the primordials stating that they can only live forever in her shadow, her form then cracks and becomes brittle and lifeless.
- The primordial children of Annam remain for a time each one eventually ascending to godhood as the myth of the disappearance of the children of Annam spreads through giant culture. Only Lanaxis and Arno/Julian remain; Lanaxis because he refuses to abandon Annam’s dream of Ostoria and because he is abandoned by his Titan children for his failure, and Arno/Julian because the ettins are too dull witted to comprehend worship.
- After expending their race against the giants, the once dominant red dragon children of Garyx are now so diminished that the metallic and chromatic subraces of Bahamut and Tiamat dominate dragonkind from this time onwards.
Giants
All modern day giants are descended from the beings created by the primordial children of Annam.
Annam was a primordial being of great power and stature, some myths place him at a thousand feet tall with enough power to shatter the tallest mountain in a single blow.
Annam in his travels discovered the primordial Othea, a being with a deep connection to the planet Toril. With her he created many children, each one a primordial being of vast power although none as powerful as Annam.
These primordial children also desired children of their own and so with Othea created beings in their own image; humanoids of incredible size and power; the giants.
So enamoured were they of these children that they mated with the best and strongest and thus created a ruling caste among these giants, those bearing the blood of Annam.
Uncontested on Toril (the creator races having fallen millennia earlier) these giants quickly spread to cover almost the entire continent of Faerûn guided by Annam. The Kingdom of Ostoria was born; stretching from Peluvria to the Vilhon Reach.
Annam divided his kingdom of Ostoria amongst his primordial sons and their giant children, each one chose a land to live upon and rule.
Now giants being incredibly long lived do not evolve naturally as humans do, for a trait to pass through ten generations and become dominant might take several millennia. Giants do however have an incredibly close and magical link to the land through their “mother” Othea, and so over time the giants absorbed characteristics from the land in which they dwelled. Thus the frost giants were born from their icy caves, the fire giants born from volcanoes, the stone giants from the rock beneath the earth. Only the titans remained unchanged, being the first and most powerful they absorbed characteristics from everything including the magic around them.
Eventually a race did arise to challenge the giants. The red lizards that fell to ground millennia ago with meteorites had been ignored by the giants as pests. Gradually over time these tiny lizards grew into enormous red land wyrms the size of ancient trees, as millennia passed one among them developed wings and intelligence; he was called Garyx, and he sired a race of flying reptilian creatures that increased in power as they aged; the Dragons.
Ultimately giants and dragons came to blows and the war between them shattered both races, allowing the smaller humanoids to inherit Toril.
Royalty
All giant royalty stems from the blood of Annam.
When the primordial children of Annam created their giant children they took a number of them as mates and sired what would become the royalty of later giant kingdoms.
The giants had children between themselves, and these are the giants we know of today, regular giants of various kinds.
Giant royalty however has the blood of powerful primordials flowing through their veins. They are bigger, stronger, faster, and sometimes smarter than other giants of their kind with magical abilities inherent to themselves. And in accordance with these enhanced abilities they naturally gravitate to positions of power (treat as advanced giants with HD exceeding the normal limits).
In the days of Ostoria, these enhanced giants formed the nobility beneath the primordials themselves (and Annam) who ruled over the subkingdoms of Ostoria.
As Ostoria fell, most of the giant royals were called to Lanaxis’ citadel in what would become Hartsvale, and their descendants dwell their still. Hartkiller’s battle with the storm giant paramount was against one such advanced giant.
After Ostoria’s fall very few members of royalty were left in the rest of Faerûn, only the lesser nobility or outcast giants weren’t called to Lanaxis’ citadel. However from time to time advanced giants do appear, these giants manifest traits of their ancient royal ancestors and can display powerful abilities.
The Sub Kingdoms of Ostoria
Ostoria spanned almost the entirety of Faerûn from the Cold Lands to the Shaar according to some legends.
Only to the Unapproachable East did the giant kingdoms not spread, limited by the ancient primal treeline of the Greater Riildath forest and its fey inhabitants.
Each of the individual kingdoms had a variety of various giant types living inside its borders depending on the prevailing environmental conditions in which they dwelled. The royalty and nobility of a kingdom however were all of a single type matching their primordial sire and ruler.
Voninheim: When Annam divided Ostoria amongst his sons each son chose a region to govern.
Lanaxis was eldest and most powerful and he chose first the cold plains of Vaasa, Damara, and Peluvria which was the capital of Ostoria and the most powerful kingdom of Voninheim.
Nedeheim: Obadia chose next and for himself chose the mountainous ranges of what would become the Western Heartlands and named his kingdom Nedeheim. However once the elves worked their magic to create Evermeet the vast mountain ranges that formed the coast of the Western Heartlands sank, leaving only hills and plains behind.
Ruanaroch: Nicias and Vilmos both chose to rule over the Anauroch basin from the skies above in massive cloud castles. The land beneath was desolate after the Sarrukh war with the phaerimm and took many hundreds of years before it became an abandoned forested paradise again. At some point during their ruler Nicias and Vilmos had a disagreement and the kingdom split with Nicias remaining in the Anauroch basin and Vilmos moving south over modern day Cormyr and higher into the atmosphere with the storm clouds to prove his superiority over his brother founding the kingdom of Rangjfell.
Jothun: Ottar chose next, selecting the frozen lands beyond the Spine of the World Mountains as his home. Once the Great Glacier formed his kingdom was the first to fall as the cold quickly spread to the north pole of Toril
Helligheim: Masud chose the fiery mountains of the Moonsea and its sulphurous lake at its centre that would come to be known as the Dragon Sea. Here the landwyrms that became dragons laired most often, and the giants of Helligheim hunted them for sport when the fancy took them. Not realising the danger that laired in their midst. Once Garyx was born he and his progeny dispersed among the mountain ranges of Faerûn where they came into conflict with Ruk and his hill giants, sparking the thousand year war.
Darchar: Ruk chose last, being the most dull witted of the brother he did not notice he was given the lesser of the kingdoms to rule. His kingdom consisted of the hilly mountainous region of the Vilhon Reach and eastern Amn with his capital at Grunfesting. When the dragons began to appear they chose to lair in these massive mountain ranges and came into frequent conflict with the giants. Once Garyx deemed his children were strong enough he declared war on Darchar and the rest of Ostoria.
Dragons
Dragons are the children of Asgorath; the great primordial dragon that hurled the ice moon at Abeir Toril and shattered the planet.
Asgorath also hurled his children at the surface of the planet, and shortly after the Tearfall thousands of unique dracoforms hatched all over Toril.
These creatures were a myriad of shapes, sizes, legs, heads, colours, and abilities, each representing an aspect of Asgorath's perfect form.
Over a millennia, these dracoforms competed with one another and the natural wildlife for a niche on the world.
The most well adapted and therefore dominant creature was a large four legged reptilian creature with a head and tail and possessing a keen intelligence rivalling the more humanoid beings on Toril. This creature resembled a landwyrm or linnorm found today.
Several of these landwyrms, the first to emerge from the Tearfall, were possessed of extreme power and intelligence and banded together to shepherd the lesser members of their race. They watched in despair as other dracoforms died out almost to extinction and lamented the arrival of the giants.
Stumbling across ancient ruins of the Ba'etith organisation in the Moonsea area they decided to create the perfect dracoform that resembled Asgorath more closely.
In a great ritual they merged the remaining dracoforms into a single being and imbued him with great magic. This being they called Garyx, and he resembled a deep scarlet coloured dragon of today. However one of their number tricked the others and during the ritual imbued Garyx with his own personality and greed. Thus Garyx, the first dragon desired to possess everything, and that which he could not possess he destroyed.
Soon the Moonsea was known as the Sea of Dragons for the numbers of red dragons lairing in the area. However their few numbers still could not stand against Annam and the giants when they established Helligheim in the area, and so Garyx fled to the Vilhon Reach and waited, amassing his forces to strike when he was powerful enough. |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 14 Nov 2023 : 20:24:19
Is Karontor crippled, trapped in the Underdark forever and reviled by his peers? |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 14 Nov 2023 : 18:21:28
FWIW, in the 5E's Glory of the Giants, Karontor is all but said to be 4E's Torog, who's credited with creating the Underdark. None of this invalidates what's above, just noting . |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 13 Nov 2023 : 22:56:29
Thread necromancy here:
Do you have an origins story for the linmorns? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Mar 2014 : 09:00:15
There we go, added a bit more flavour to the tearfall events thanks to Sleyvas' excellent find in draconomicon. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 19:08:29
I should have remembered that because I was the one that started the thread. Silly me. One of my first forays into homebrew realmslore |
| Asharak |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 18:32:40
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
She is killed by Gilgeam in 1357/58, then she reappears in 1358 and kills Gilgeam.(i might have my dates and events wrong having never read any realms novel ever). Even more confusing is that at the same time Gareth Dragonsbane travels to Baator and destroys an avatar of Tiamat at the gates of Avernus.
There's an unpublished update for this by Eric L. Boyd here on the forum... http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16726&whichpage=1 |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 09:00:37
Having gone through some really ancient history of Toril and settled on my version of history for the dragons i suddenly came up with an idea for the massively dirty confusion that is the Untheric pantheon.
Specifically Tiamat.
From what i understand she arrives in Toril with the Untheric pantheon.
She is killed by Gilgeam in 1357/58, then she reappears in 1358 and kills Gilgeam.(i might have my dates and events wrong having never read any realms novel ever). Even more confusing is that at the same time Gareth Dragonsbane travels to Baator and destroys an avatar of Tiamat at the gates of Avernus.
Now none of this can be possibly unless you note the dates in GHoTR.
Xymor and Tiamat were skirmishing on and off since -29,500 DR.
Then according to Powers and Pantheons Tiamat arrives on Toril with the Untheric pantheon.
Therefore there are/were two Tiamats. And maybe two Bahamuts.
This can occur because the Faerunian and Untheric pantheon are separate so you could have two deities with the same name with the same portfolios but in different pantheons.
Furthermore, Tiamat's writeup in Powers and Pantheons lists 3 avatars; the multi headed dragon, the dark lady (a mulan sorcerer), and the undying queen which she added later).
So this is purely musing for my own realms but here it is.
Tiamat and Bahamut are created far back in antiquity c-25000 for my history. They are merely super powerful primordial dragons (in line with a lot of early published realms sourcebooks) and they and their followers battle each other through the ages.
At some point Tiamat ascends (i dont think Bahamut does though since a number of books list Bahamut as an actual platinum dragon attended by a court of ancient gold wyrms). This Tiamat is the multi headed chromatic dragon and she makes her planar abode in Avernus, leaving an avatar guarding the gates of hell.
Then the Untheric pantheon (and the Mulhorandi) arrive on Toril. One of these gods is by pure chance called Tiamat, a Mulan sorcerer fond of taking dragon form. I think Marduk in the Mulhorandi pantheon i will just have as a normal human not connected to Bahamut, but a steadfast opponent of Tiamat.
Now in -1071 we have both Tiamat (Untheric) and Marduk dying. Now i reckon that Marduk did die and transferred his power to Bahamut who he had heard was the nemesis of Tiamat (bit of a case of mistaken identity) and so Bahamut now ascends to godhood. However i'm not entirely sure that death meant death at that point in time (the Mulhorandi could transfer their power to different vessels) so perhaps Tiamat had contingencies in place to ensure her survival after death (like Tchazzar and his ring).
So we now have two Tiamats and one Bahamut.
Then the time of troubles hits. Now i'm not entirely clear on the timeline of events but at some point Tiamat is killed by Gilgeam. Tiamat is killed by Gareth Dragonsbane, then Tiamat and Gilgeam kill each other's material plane manifestations then finally Tiamat kills Gilgeam on Zigguraxis.
So assuming it actually happens in that order. The Dark Lady (Untheric Tiamat) is killed by Gilgeam and her spirit retreats to the ring she gave to Tchazzar which allows her to reform later.
Gareth Dragonsbane destroys an avatar of the draconic Tiamat in Baator.
The Dark Lady then reforms into a multi headed dragon and attacks Gilgeam again and they both destroy each other's physical manifestation and at this point Tiamat (Unther) is properly dead and so Tiamat (Draconic) pounces upon Gilgeam's weakened state in Zigguraxis and devours him.
Of course if anyone knows the actual timeline of events for the TOT and the dragonsbane saga regarding Tiamat then that would be really helpful. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 06 Mar 2014 : 13:46:59
And in case George gets upset with me for invalidating his lore on Orslinn, i am working on it now. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 06 Mar 2014 : 13:43:57
Well i redid the history at the top and added info on the dragons below it.
Basically i covered all bases by saying a variety of dracoforms emerged after Tearfall with anything between 2 and 20 legs, 1 and 10 heads, wings or not, breath weapons or not, a variety of sizes, colours, shapes.
I chose Landwyrms because one part of the draconomicon mentioned that they found fossil records of these land wyrms that predated dragons and started off the evolution idea. I then veer off from that and have dragons being magically created to also make true the draconomicon history that stated all dragons were red dragons initially and they were magically created.
Hopefully by having lots of different types of draconic creatures from the start that should cover all terrestrial forms of draconic life we have now.
Some of the weirder ones die out, eventually you get evolution into hydra and other things around nowadays. The true dragons could even interbreed with the surviving dracoforms to produce random crossbreeds like pseudo dragons and faerie dragons.
I'm going to steer well clear from planar stuff. Maybe a dragon or two or a hundred disappeared into the planes ages ago, but thats really a different story entirely.
I'm just trying to pull together the bits of draconic history from the draconomicon (1993) and weave it into what i have going on with the giants and explain the civil war in Garyx's dragons mentioned in giantcraft even though only red dragons were involved in the war and draconomicon implies that all dragons were initially red.
Hopefully the end result isnt too apocryphal or heretical. All i can do is thank 4e for giving us primordials (although i'm not going to thank it for anything else). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Mar 2014 : 13:21:39
in addition to landwyrms and dragons, there really should be some mention of things like wyverns, hydras, oriental dragons, etc.... also, some looking into the formation of pseudo- and faerie dragons as well as "planar" dragons. Just throwing this into the pot before you get everything too stirred. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 09:46:08
Right then onto the dragons. Since the history of dragons and giants are so intertwined i need a proper history for them and might as well try and explain how the gods came about.
So certain events are undeniable.
Asgorath/Io created the dragons, the Tearfall event is the starting point and his blood or eggs that fell from the sky started the birth of dragons.
I prefer to think that the first creatures born of this were not dragons at all but massive land crawling wyrms, similar to landwyrms or linnorms. So they have a body and legs and a draconic head, but no wings.
The colour of these creatures does not matter because at this time they are not dragons.
Some of their number are highly intelligent beings that grow to primordial levels of power. Examples of these beings are Lendys, Tamara, Task, Zorquan, Aasterinian, Astilabor.
It was Kereska that first discovered the secrets of magic from batrachi strongholds plundered by proto dragon kind.
In these ruins she learned of secrets to change the body and mind of creatures and rituals so powerful they could be made permanent and create a new race.
Together with her kindred they studied these secrets and planned how to perfect their race to match the perfection of Asgorath. In a ritual lasting over a year they worked to create the perfect being.
A winged creature, possessed of great strength and intellect and born with inherent magical abilities.
Unfortunately for the majority of the wyrms assembled during the ritual they were tricked by the more evil of their number. Task in particular filled this creation with the desire to possess and hoard everything.
What they created was the first dragon, the red dragon called Garyx. A dragon of pure evil and greed. He desire to control and possess everything, and that which was not given to him freely he destroyed in fits of immense rage.
Garyx went on to spawn an entire race of red dragons that would eventually supplant the land wyrms. The creators of dragonkind had long ago ascended to godhood thanks to the fervent worship of the draconic race.
Garyx himself desired the ultimate power of godhood, as well as to rule the entire world. His children likewise shared his same sense of greed and so it did not take much for Garyx to lead his spawn into a genocidal war of attrition against the realm of Ostoria to decide who would have control of Faerun.
For 500 years the red dragons hurled themselves against the giants. Losses on both sides were enormous and threatened both races with extinction if not ended soon.
One of Garyx's children; Xymor saw in this incessant conflict the end of all dragons and took steps to prevent this. Using magic performed millennia earlier by Lendys, Tamara, Task, Zorquan, Aasterinian, and Astilabor, he attempted to purge himself of the most evil and greedy aspects of dragonkind.
Although mightier individually than his sires had been, he was not enough to control and perform the complicated magics in use that day.
He was moderately successful. Xymor was indeed purged of the evil aspects of dragonkind (although greed for wealth was not quite erased) and he was reborn as Bahamut, the platinum dragon. A dragon of white metallic sheen that embodied the goodness of dragon kind.
However from these evil aspects a twin sister was created, the antithesis of everything Bahamut now represented; a huge monstrously bloated multi headed dragon of various colours.
Engagins in battle immediately the two proved evenly matched and would only destroy each other; so Bahamut fled.
Over the next few centuries Xymor and Tiamat spawned entirely new subraces of dragons, and polarised the draconic race. This brewing civil war threatened Garyx's bid for godhood.
So in an effort to end the millennia long conflict Garyx faced Annam in personal combat with the full force of their armies behind them seeking to end the conflict one way or the other.
From this battle both Garyx and Annam ascended to godhood in one way or another. However the conflict also birthed a number of other draconic beings. The concentrated death and destruction of so many dragons caused the creation of at least two draconic beings of death.
One was a shadow black cloud form of a dragon known as Chrononepsis. Another was the skeletal dragon known as Falazure. Both these beings ascended to godhood that day and over the millennia would merge into one deity, the draconic god known as Null. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 08:12:10
Not a bad idea, i could change it slightly so that Karontor waits for the giants to come and find him (Hiatea on her pursuit of Grolantor would be the obvious choice to bring him home). During that time he attracted a following of storm giants that felt the primordial rulers of Ostoria had failed and wanted things to change (basically rebels and anarchists).
When Hiatea brings them in they are all cursed and twisted. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 01:38:12
Love the idea of Karontor as you present it. Would like to add one additional thing. When he "returns" expecting praise, some storm giants do indeed praise him for his actions. These giants ally with him, and as a result whenever Lanaxis punishes him with a curse, he also punishes these storm giants to descend into the earth (forming the Maur). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 21:47:24
Just a few ideas for some history on the giant primordial children and how they became gods (using some of their histories in the monster mythology books, and my own musings on ancient fey realms in the unapproachable east). Given the entwined histories of the giants and dragons though I might have to develop dragons further as well.
I decided to use an oft encountered trick in realms lore where the names are translated into something else in a different language to enable me to use both the realms name for a giant deity and a core name for the giant deity.
So Grolantor is the name in the ancient giant tongue, but it translates as Ruk in the common tongue (or vice versa if you prefer, I don't think it really matters)
Primordials
Grolantor: Also translated as Ruk in the common tongue. Grolantor was a giant of immense size and lust for earthly pleasure, unfortunately his intellect was not so great. He was the elder twin of Karontor the radiant and ruler of the realm of Darchar.
Grolantor spend his time on Faerun eating, drinking, fighting, and mating to excess.
His lust for the pleasures of life meant that his kingdom was neglected and he failed to react to the encroachment of dragons upon his territory until it was far to late.
After hunting and slaying one of Garyx's brood, Grolantor and the kingdom of Darchar earned the enmity of Garyx and the entire draconic race. Once the dragons took to the skies Darchar's fate was sealed, within 500 years nothing was left of the hill giant kingdom, and Grolantor returned to Voninheim in shame.
For losing a great kingdom of Ostoria, Grolantor was exiled from Ostoria and ordered not to return until he had redeemed himself. His twin brother; Karontor, elected to go into exile with him "to help guide his brother" or so he claimed.
He wandered the dangerous forests south of Voninheim (The Greater Riildath) and there discovered an evil twisted crone called Cegliune. Together the pair created a race of twisted hags and in an effort to enhance his strength and power polluted the hill giant entourage that had accompanied Grolantor.
Karontor however did something far worse and using ancient rune magics of the giants and even older magics of the fey he tainted the giant kin; Verbeeg, Firbolg, and Fomorian.
Grolantor journeyed further south to the Thaymount and there encountered the remnants of the Sarrukh race and their body twisting magics. Again Grolantor sought to enhance his strength and power and used his seed to spawn a twisted race of creatures as well as further pollute his hill giant descendants.
The first Yuan-Ti Anathema was created by combining the abundant life force of giants with the Sarrukh's favoured slave race. The result was an abomination whose mortal shell could barely contain the excess life energy inside it. This Anathema, the first haunted the lands later known as Thay until Hiatea arrived seeking to undo the damage created by her brother.
From that point on the deeds of Grolantor are unknown to history. Perhaps the enormous power Grolantor had accumulated enabled him to jump to godhood despite the small number of hill giants remaining.
Karontor: Karontor the radiant, the twin brother of Grolantor has often been compared to Lanaxis. He was exceptionally intelligent, he appeared as a radiant being of staggering charisma, and he was incredibly powerful especially in the ancient rune magics of the giant.
Yet for all Karontor's power something dark festered at the core of this primordial. As the younger twin of Grolantor he was passed over by Annam to inherit a kingdom of Ostoria. This rejection festered a jealousy of his brother and a desire to prove himself to his father.
Ever he remained in his brother's shadow, brooding in secret plotting how to gain his fathers approval.
It was Karontor that gave the idea to Grolantor that the growing reptiles would make worthy hunting prey; thus ensuring the downfall of Darchar and his brother.
Karontor followed his brother into exile and it was he that sought out and discovered Cegliune, guiding his brother to Narathmault. There he decided upon the ultimate means to prove his worth to his father. For years Karontor and Cegliune laboured with dark magics. Karontor helped create the Hag race, and in return she helped him twist the giant kin; the half giant offspring of Othea, into lesser beings.
The Fomorian and Verbeeg suffered greatly from this curse. The Firbolg were saved when their sire Grond Peaksmasher chose to suffer the full effects of the curse himself and was thus twisted into a shadow of his former self, but for his sacrifice the Firbolgs remained noble giant like beings.
After his deed, Karontor followed his brother for a time and after persuading Grolantor to pollute his body further with Sarrukh magic, he retired from travelling, satisfied that his brother had suffered enough.
There Karontor attracted bands of rebel giants to his banner, those that felt the primordial sons of Annam were failing in their kingship and leading the giants down a path of destruction. And so Karontor waited for the reward he was sure would be forthcoming from his primordial kindred.
It was here that Hiatea; following the brothers trail found Karontor and his kingdom of rebels. She brought them to Voninheim and the judgement of Lanaxis.
Karontor was expecting praise and reward for punishing the hated half giant spawn of Othea and Ulutiu.
However Karontor's festering evil had caused him to misjudge his other giant primordial brothers and instead of welcoming him and rewarding him he was cursed by Lanaxis and the others for polluting the giant race. For although the giant kin were only half giant, they were still half-giant.
Karontor was cursed so that his form resembled his deeds and his twisted shadowy self was now as black as his heart. He spent the rest of his days on Faerun travelling in the darkness and shadows, whispering to the disaffected and outcast giants causing them to plot against their giant brothers.
His rebel giant followers; most of whom were storm giants, were likewise twisted in form and banished from the realm of Ostoria, they were forced to descend into the earth and live there to this day in the Underdark as the Maur.
Eventually Karontor ascended to godhood as the nameless twisted abomination he is today, patron of exiled, outcast, evil giants everywhere.
Hiatea: Hiatea was one of the only female giant primordial children of Annam, and as a woman was immediately passed over for rulership of a kingdom of Ostoria.
She was expected to attend court and entertain the kings of Ostoria or take up the role as assistant shaman and learn the ways of Rune Magic.
However Hiatea was as strong and as skilled as any giant warrior. With her martial prowess she bested foe after foe and killed more dragons in personal combat during the thousand year war than any other child of Annam.
However Annam still ignored his daughter and her abilities.
After the thousand year war the giants took stock of the remnants of the giant race and their empire. Hiatea decided that she would prove herself to her father by righting the wrongs of his favoured sons.
It was Hiatea that took Grond Peaksmasher under her wing, acting as his mother in Othea's absence and teaching the cursed creature to master his raging emotions and twisted form.
Hiatea then pursued Grolantor across Faerun, following his trail for centuries.
She battled the disgusting twisted spawn of Grolantor wherever she went, even slaying the great Yuan-Ti Anathema created by Grolantor's dalliance with Sarrukh magic.
Rumours are that she finally tracked Grolantor to the ends of Toril and perished in battle against him, other legends say that she slew the mighty hill giant using his own unlimited strength against him. Finally other legends speak of her ascendance during the battle that she could not possibly hope to win; a sign of her father's final acceptance of her and a reward of a place at his side.
Garyx: The created child of Lendys, Tamara, Astilabor, Hlal, Kereska, Task, and Zorquan. Together they merged aspects of the remaining dracoforms from the Tearfall into one whole being that would supposedly personify the perfection of Asgorath's form.
Unknown to them Task had persuaded Hlal into helping him alter the ritual to imbue their creation with the personality of Task.
This resulted in a being of immense power and greed that desired to possess and rule the entire planet.
Garyx quickly grew into an enormous dragon of a deep scarlet hue. His size was enormous even by great wyrm standards today. He could master many great magics with but a thought, and his breath weapon could melt even solid rock.
Quickly Garyx produced many children that grew in power as they aged like Garyx did. He was forced from his place of creation in the Moonsea area by the giants of Ostoria as they created Helligheim.
He took up residence in the Vilhon Reach mountain ranges and there spawned thousands of draconic children. Once ready he launched a war upon the giants of Ostoria lasting a thousand years.
Towards the end of the war, attrition of the dragons had begun to weaken his army, even worse new subraces of dragons had appeared that would not immediately submit to his rule and had to be forced to obey. These metallic and chromatic dragons would attack each other on sight and civil war threatened to destroy his flight of dragons.
When Garyx heard of Annam's desire to end the war quickly by destroying Garyx personally he amassed his entire flight of dragons in the Moonsea area with himself at the head and waited for Annams arrival.
Annam did not disappoint and he too brought all his forces to bear including many of his primordial children. The battle raged across the Moonsea up into the Tortured Lands where at last Annam and Garyx faced each other in personal combat.
However before the duel could be resolved Annam spied Othea and Ulutiu together in the distance smiling at him and he knew he was betrayed. Retreating from battle; Annam left his forces in disarray to be slaughtered by the enraged Garyx.
It was then that a long forgotten enemy reared his reptilian head and attempted to reclaim its supremacy of Toril.
The Sarrukh unleashed upon the dragons a creature it had rescued from the Tearfall. A winged behemoth of immense size that had been altered by Sarrukh magic. It had multiple wings, two heads that breathed fire and lightning, and razor sharp claws that dripped acid.
This monster of antiquity powered towards Garyx slaying dragons left and right and wrent huge claw marks in the now ancient and nearly impervious hide of Garyx.
For a tenday the two battled, neither able to destroy the other until at last Garyx landed exhausted from the efforts.
As Orslinn landed his claws and teeth around Garyx's throat the first dragon disappeared as he ascended into the heavens.
Orslinn: Orslinn was one of the first creatures to emerge from the craters of the Tearfall. A tiny winged reptile no larger than a mouse, he was chanced upon by some reptilian scholars from the remains of one of the first empires to exist on Toril; the Sarrukh.
These Sarrukh were members of the Ba'etith and lived in seclusion deep underground. Here they nurtured Orslinn making him grow faster and larger than normal on abundant magically enhanced food.
They also altered his being with powerful magics and surgically altered him for extra wings, extra heads, venom sacs beneath his claws and fangs. They also tortured him mentally, making him wracked with pain and hateful of all life. They were turning him into a weapon of war.
At the closing point of the thousand year war they turned him loose, forcing him to claw his way out of the mountains he was trapped beneath and setting him upon Garyx and his victorious dragons.
For days Garyx and Orslinn fought, and at the moment of victory Garyx disappeared from Orslinns grasp and ascended to the heavens.
Orslinn likewise disappeared from history and what became of him is unknown.
(Hope you don't mind me using your creation George?)
Asgorath: An alien entity that took the form of a massive dragon. Possibly the largest being ever to have existed in Toril’s crystal sphere; he was larger than most asteroids, making him several miles in dimension.
Asgorath never set foot upon Toril’s surface. Upon arriving in the crystal sphere he did battle with a being called Zotha over one of Toril’s moons; a sphere of ice so pure it shone like crystal when the sun’s light touched it.
Asgorath slept there for many centuries until contacted by the batrachi that desired his aid in helping them combat the primordial’s on Toril’s surface. Angered at being awoken by such diminutive beings he sought to punish them all by destroying all life on the planet so he could seed it with his children.
He blasted the ice moon of Zotha at Toril’s surface with his breath weapon. Unfortunately for Asgorath the moon shattered into a countless number of crystal shards that pierced his body and shredded his form. Asgorath perished and the remains of Zotha impacted on Toril ending the empires of the creator races.
The crystal shards bearing Asgorath’s blood gradually entered Toril’s atmosphere and landed on the surface at various points. From these craters life-forms emerged, given life by Asgorath’s blood, and each one represented an aspect of his draconic form.
Over time these creatures would evolve through natural and magical means into the dragons we know today.
Asgorath is dead and has been dead since long before dragons emerged on Toril. Seen as an aloof deity by the dragons almost all do not realise their progenitor is a corpse and incapable of answering rather than being unwilling.
Just who answers what few prayer Asgorath does answer, or who provides spells to his priests is unknown. Perhaps one of the other dragon deities answers in his name and receives power from his worship.
Perhaps as part of their endless war, the two sole remaining vessels of Asgorath's power; Bahamut and Tiamat, vie constantly to grant spells and receive worship from the dragons that venerate Asgorath. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 11:55:41
Just added some theories to giant royalty and the sub kingdoms of Ostoria as took my fancy.
Again nothing really canon but we have so little detail from back then it doesnt matter.
Tried tying up a few lore loose ends that didnt match some details we had and just made other bits up. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 08:51:56
Yes it was indeed meant to be "them" |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 00:45:40
around them |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 23:57:08
quote:
Thus the frost giants were born from their icy caves, the fire giants born from volcanoes, the stone giants from the rock beneath the earth. Only the titans remained unchanged, being the first and most powerful they absorbed characteristics from everything including the magic around the
'magic around the...?' |
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