| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| thenightgaunt |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 22:07:21
FYI: This is all regarding PRE-SPELLPLAGUE FR geography. The Spellplague makes this thread kinda moot as it reshaped the map.
Recently I've been reading more on the Vilhon Reach, and I noticed something that struck me as rather odd. I've never really noticed any waterways that connected the Sea of Fallen Stars with the Sea of Swords/Trackless Sea/Shining Sea/etc...
So should there have been a connecting waterway? It can easily be remedied by a GM and in my own game I've connected the 2 via the Deepwash and the Lake of steam as it looks like the Wintercloak River should connect with the Thornwash (only 38 miles separate the 2 (per the FR Interactive Atlas so take that with a grain of salt). But it has me wondering, should the 2 actually be connected cannonically given the sheer scale of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Oh, and most of my argument here focuses on that area. If you have a better connection point to recommend please do.
You'd think there'd be waterways connecting the two and there are a number of places where they come close. The Vilhon Reach and the Lake of Steam, and The River Reaching to the west of Cormyr. Now there are real world examples of similar divisions. The Caspian Sea isn't connected to naturally to any ocean. The Volga–Don Canal (62 miles or so) was built to connect it to the Oceans so a 30 something mile gap blocking 2 bodies of water isn't unrealistic. Then again it's only 270 miles by 640 miles, while the Sea of Fallen Stars is around 1400 miles by 600 miles (again from FR Atlas software and measuring crudely very crudely from longest point to longest point). So that's a huge difference in volumes.
Some factors to note:
1. Water levels can differ even in connected bodies of water with the Pacific Ocean 20cm higher than then Atlantic.
2. The Vilhon Reach all land until –255 DR when elven mages flooded the entire nation with a tidal wave that flooded about 300 miles or so of land (FR Atlas compared to map of Jhaamdath from FR wiki).
3. The Deepwash and Nagawater appear to have been unchanged by the tidal wave so it may be a moot event for the discussion. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 18:06:30
I also have to note that if you're a real sticker to canon, the House of Serpents trilogy unfortunately makes some otherwise interesting points moot, though it'll also add a few new ideas and elaborate on others (I will avoid spoilers). I grabbed that trilogy just because it was set somewhere I wanted to read about (as I usually do with novels), and even though I didn't think it was bad, I don't like the way Lisa Smedman took some things, at all. I think it was mostly a case of "tying up all the loose ends and leaving very, very few new ones", which makes the place feel a bit... boring, after the fact. So what I say here is almost guaranteed to ignore the events of that trilogy. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 11:49:56
Mintar (not Mintarn, which is an island off the Sword Coast) is a Zhent-allied stronghold led by Teldorn Darkhope, or at least it was (I'm under the impression something happened there, but can't find it). Their power extends to the northwest as far as Kzelter, but Yeshpek, Saelmur, etc. are independent. The Zhents would no doubt be very interested in Mintar with the Canal being built, though (for one's campaign one could argue that was the reason for Teldorn's takeover, but the dates don't match unless the Zhents could see a few years ahead - Mintar was conquered in 1362 DR, the Canal started being seriously considered in 1364 DR... also back then many Zhents were Cyricists, while Teldorn was a Xvimlar).
In my campaign, the Rundeen is making a heavy move there - they have a PC on their side who actually became the Ransar of Innarlith. Unfortunately for them, the guy's also a Tel'Teukiira, so he's playing his own game as well. The Twisted Rune didn't show up, but then again the Twisted Rune never shows up - no one ever knows they're pulling the strings, even after it's too late...
Sespech is said to have some control of the Golden Plains, while Innarlith definitely has the town of Kurrsh under its grasp and is building the whole Canal to the Nagaflow. The river is a natural border for the two states, but ultimately, like most frontier areas in the Realms, the land belongs to whoever controls it. In my campaign, Sespech managed to consolidate its power in the two main crossings of the Nagaflow, east and west of the Canal, while Innarlith owns everything south of it (though most of it is actually wilderness, in both cases). The area just northwest of the Canal's exit on the Nagaflow has a particular interest in my campaign - no one has managed to get a foothold there because after being kicked out of Innarlith, Marek Rymüt established himself there. He lives in his pocket plane, but uses the area as a staging ground for his "special creatures" (he's a notable experimenter in the book - I'd say he's an Enchanter who knows a lot of Transmutation as well) in order to spoil his fellow Red Wizards' plans. Most definitely non-canon, by the way. I just found Marek Rymüt got taken down too easily in the Watercourse Trilogy, so I changed that (the guy's probably at least near the 20th level of wizard, as he's canonically able to create a pocket plane, which was a 9th level spell, Genesis, in 3E).
Edit: I forgot to mention the Se'Sehen yuan-ti who have been admitted into the Rundeen have been helping the Consurtium engineer a secret pact with Hlondeth, capitalising on the Se'sehen ancestry of the Extaminos and the potential benefits the Canal could offer both parties. The Rundeen have lent a fair amount of money to Innarlith's Senate and is planning to be the leading trading company to operate in and around the new waterway. Both Tashalar and Hlondeth have discarded any plans for military adventures in the area, preferring to reap the mercantile opportunities instead. Nimpeth, on the other hand, is negotiating with Innarlith to secure their support for charging a small toll on their end of the Nagaflow (Vassara river in my campaign), plus some commercial concessions. They're wary of openly supporting Sespech, and the relations between these realms are not so friendly. As I put it, the only thing Nimpeth and Mimph can agree on is that Arrabar should burn. This is all non-canon, by the way, but heavily built on canon.
|
| Cbad285 |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 07:10:15
Okay. Well this changes my perspective of sespech. I guess then the real question here is, who owns the lands surrounding the bend in the southern portion of the nagaflow. And what information is there on innarlith |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 04:28:28
Toward the tail-end of 2e, the Zhents were also making a bid for power around the Lake of Steam. They have a power-base in Kzelter and I think they either made a play for, or were planning to make a play on, Mintar, IIRC.
If they wanted Mintar for a Lake of Steam port (which gives them access to the southern water-trade), I would think they would be extremely interested in getting their hands on Innarlith (especially if they know their rivals - the Red Wizards - were already doing so).
You have some other cool groups around that area as well, like the Rundeen and The Twisted Rune, who would probably also be interested in getting a toe-hold on the the illicit activities in the region.
What I said about Iriaebor earlier would be true of Innarlith as well - it would become a hotbed of intrigue, and a great place to run a Cloak & Dagger style campaign.
*Edited for typos |
| thenightgaunt |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 03:42:50
Mapolq:
Good point about the Nagaflow. If it’s a slow river then yeah, no worries. Though animal traction might be rather common but still secondary to wind power for getting ships upriver. The locks, as you mentioned, would be another matter though.
I didn’t know that the Red Wizards in the watercourse books were operating out of Innarlith. That makes a ton of sense now. I also missed the bit with the general at Fort Arran being a former party member as well. Good catch.
I imagine that Hlondeth could bring a lot to the table to make that marriage less distasteful though. I agree though that the succession issue would be Thragar’s biggest worry. Anyone who could promise him some magical way of ensuring that his line would remain, at least, human looking would get a lot of support from him. Or the reverse, ensuring that his grandchild was a snake in order to sour relations between him and his inlaws.
|
| Mapolq |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 03:12:05
I can't back it up with facts because there really aren't any, but the Nagaflow is a long river which runs largely through plains, and the northern section you're worried about drains from a rather large lake. That's led me to assume it's a wide, slow-flowing river, so there's no problem with vessels sailing upstream - it'll be easy if they have good winds, and if not they can probably still tack. Only in dire situations, one might resort to animal traction. There's almost no building required in the Nagaflow itself - the river is navigable. Maybe some dredging, but that's it. Locks are only needed for the small stretch between the Nagaflow and the Lake of Steam (the Canal itself). The Watercouse Trilogy supports this interpretation - nowhere is the Canal treated as being anything but that particular stretch.
Sespech is pretty fierce in its independence, and its population is half that of Chondath. Any invasion plan from Chondath would immediately be seen as a major threat by Nimpeth, Hlondeth, Reth and even Hlath, which canonically is "kind of" independent of Chondath. Those cities and Realms are all "targets" of Arrabar, which tends to unite them in case of Chondathian expansion. In this particular case, Innarlith might be worried as well, and the whole rest of Toril would be watching.
The Red Wizards have been established as owning Enclaves in both Arrabar and Hlath, as well as the Innarlan one seen in the Watercourse Trilogy. So it's safe to say they've put their fingers in that pie already, which really makes a lot of sense in my opinion.
The Band of Iron, Thuragar's old adventuring band / mercenary group, is definitely in charge of Sespech. The mayors of Elbulder and Mimph and the dwarf general who commands the Fort Arran garrison are all former members. I don't think the half-elf admiral is stated to be as well, though. Also, keep in mind Mimph is a Sespechian city, and not independent. Not sure if everyone had seen that, there seemed to be some confusion.
Sespech is most certainly no friend of the Red Wizards. Of all the nations in the region, I'd say they're the least likely to make a deal with them, due to two things: the population is highly distrustful of magic, and Thuragar's rule is all about fierce independence and a good deal of personal power - the guy's an "old-school" king (well, baron). Even his alliance with Hlondeth, which is a much more obvious one to make, is a matter of enormous contempt in the court (and for himself). Mostly due to his daughter having to endure a marriage to a yuan-ti family and, of course, the issue of succession (what kind of children do yuan-ti and humans make anyway - I figured that one for my campaign, but it's something to think about).
|
| thenightgaunt |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 02:04:49
quote:
Originally posted by Cbad285
As far as Thuragar goes, I thought Arrabar was Chondath territory?
Yep. You're right there. But it was caravans from Sespech to Chondath (Arrabar in particular) that were getting hit.
quote:
Now I don't know much about the political backing for Sespech, but from what I understand they must have some ties to Shaar or Thay or both in order to hold their ground against Chondath. I thought the canal would be able to be built at the narrow point of the Nagaflow but that doesn't seem to be the case. Someone made me aware that the current in the Nagaflow at that point in the river would be flowing north into the Reach. In order for a lock to push the water you would need the strength of the current, correct?
Nope. The current may be headed north towards the Reach, but that wouldn't change anything. Trade on a canal is 2-way. The traditional method is to build a sturdy stone path along either side of the canal. Then beasts of burden like horses or oxen pull the barges against the current. Going the other way they just drift down river. While still being based on animal labor, the barges can still haul a ton of cargo compared to carts or animals alone. So no need to cut through the wood. At the most, you create a simple lock on either end of the canal to control the currents and reduce the forces the animals have to pull against.
Also, depending on which body of water is higher, the canal may mess up the currents.
quote:
So the PC's need to control the profits from the canal and allowing the land owners propriety here isn't very good for business. So unless you can manipulate Thuragar, which being a merchant himself is unlikely without serious leverage (or magic). The other option is to remove him from power by backing Chondath, for instance. For the PC's here, this involves aiding the reclaiming of Sespech by cutting off trade to Sespech from the Reach as well as taking out Mimph and Nimepth. (Both of which could be very profitable moves in of themselves)
Now mind you, Thuragar is no slouch. A 12th level fighter with 10,000 men just at Fort Arran? But what favors might he call to protect his land outside of his own forces? And of his forces, what does his troop numbers look like? what friends of his might show up to protect their interests, outside of the Redwizards.
Per the 2nd ed book on the Vilhon Reach it's only 1000 men at Fort Arran.
It's an interesting point really. The issue with Thuragar is that he's not only a merchant but a very successful former mercenary captain. So he won't be easily knocked down. You can try to remove him from power but the theives' guild in his capital has been trying to do that for years and failing. The way I look at it, Thurgar is essentially a dynamic leader trying to organize Sespech into a nation. It's hinted at but essentially the other lords of the Sespech cities may be his former adventuring party. The 3rd Ed. FR campaign setting will be your friend here. Mimph is ruled by a lvl 14 ranger and a lvl 16 helmite cleric both of whom served with Thuragar. Elbulder is run by a lvl 16 wizard with similar links to Thuragar. So either way Thuragar should be run as a powerful, clever, and very dangerous adversary due to his military experience and his success conquering the region and holding it against Chondath. A former adventurer who, with his party, conquered a nation.
As for any Thay or Shaar connections. Nope. Not in the official canon as far as I know. I could be wrong though. I think the watercourse books are the only time they try to claim that the Thayans have any presence (never read them) and it's contrary to everything written about the region before it. I guess it's canon now, but it's stupid canon (IMO). For the most part it seems that any of those sort who show up and make noise get greased real fast. Also Thuragar is LN, and his old pals are NG, LN, and NG, so they'd likely make deals but would probably fight any intrusions by Thay or Shaar.
Meanwhile, Chondath is an empire in decline. While Chondath is right in the middle of the Emerald Enclave's territory, Sespech is on the edge and the resources from the canal (wood from forests not protected by elves) will likely turn Sespech into a powerhouse and give them reason to expand into the Golden Plains and the Lake of Steam (fewer druids that way). So I'd say the better bet would be backing Sespech. Every description of Chondath in the books focuses on terms like "decline" and "former glory". Plus they'll likely have the backing of Hlondath with that wedding (great target if your PCs decide to back Chondath. Kill the groom and frame Sespech).
The real money in the canal will be from either tolls, or trade via it. Innarlith would be a major target as it's not the most structured of merchant towns and it's poised to get hit with a ton of growth. A few assassinations and power plays in the right places and PC's could take over the town mafia style (if it's a neutral to evil campaign). Then you've got control of the canal trade on the southern end. A much safer proposition than going up against Thuragar.
|
| Cbad285 |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 01:01:54
As far as Thuragar goes, I thought Arrabar was Chondath territory? Most of my info here is coming from FR wiki so don't quote me on anything, anyway there is some heavy cold war issues between the two kingdoms Sespech and Chondath. But the larger interest from my campaign pov is the conflict surrounding Mimph and the ongoing navle battles. I say this not only because the PC's in the campaign are pirates, but because from the conversations I've had in the last few days you would need to decide on backing either Sespech or Chondath in order to control the building of the canal...and let me explain my reasoning. Now I don't know much about the political backing for Sespech, but from what I understand they must have some ties to Shaar or Thay or both in order to hold their ground against Chondath. I thought the canal would be able to be built at the narrow point of the Nagaflow but that doesn't seem to be the case. Someone made me aware that the current in the Nagaflow at that point in the river would be flowing north into the Reach. In order for a lock to push the water you would need the strength of the current, correct? So construction at that point requires a dam or a change in the river's direction which would increase an already expensive venture. However, what you could do is dam the wintercloak from the Deepwash, and build your canal through the Winterwood. Obviously this provokes the wrath of the Druids even more so than the original projected canal. You also have the issue of the fungus men that live in the wood, the orcs and apparently a green dragon. Now for the PC's in my campaign the only logical reason to even attempt this construction is for a big pay off in the end. So the PC's need to control the profits from the canal and allowing the land owners propriety here isn't very good for business. So unless you can manipulate Thuragar, which being a merchant himself is unlikely without serious leverage (or magic). The other option is to remove him from power by backing Chondath, for instance. For the PC's here, this involves aiding the reclaiming of Sespech by cutting off trade to Sespech from the Reach as well as taking out Mimph and Nimepth. (Both of which could be very profitable moves in of themselves)
Now mind you, Thuragar is no slouch. A 12th level fighter with 10,000 men just at Fort Arran? But what favors might he call to protect his land outside of his own forces? And of his forces, what does his troop numbers look like? what friends of his might show up to protect their interests, outside of the Redwizards. |
| thenightgaunt |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 17:27:09
quote:
Originally posted by Cbad285
actually, ya know what. I am playing in a sea of fallen stars campaign and this thread has really peaked my interest. I don't mean to digress here, but what about a conversation concerning the politics of building a canal from the nagaflow to the lake of steam.
Well, you don't have to go quite as fantastic as the Watercourse trilogy did. Especially since any Red Wizard or Harper who pokes their head up tends to die of mysterious, sudden druid related causes such as finding an earth elemental hiding in your privy.
But it'd be an interesting political drama based on just the info from the Vilhon Reach book for 2nd Ed FR.
As I recall by 1370 DR Baron Thuragar (I stick to pre-spellplague realms personally so this is dated info) claimed the "throne" by violence and assassination but was a just ruler afterwards with his former friends ruling the other free cities of Sespech. His power base was also bolstered heavily by the merchants and traders of the region as war is bad for business. Frequent raids on caravans headed to Arrabar were also an issue while the theives' guild in the capital was trying to off the baron to gain power.
With all that going on, there's your motive for construction and sources of conflict. The Lake of Steam was rather chaotic politically as I recall. So only Innarlith would be involved with the project (as they'd be in control of the Lake end of the canal) and they're a merchant city. The cities of Sespech would all be in favor of it since their leaders are all buddies with the Baron. Chondath would be conflicted as Lord Wianar wants to see the old empire rebuilt and a more powerful Sespech would be a powerful rival. But then he'd be set to make a some money off of trade via the canal as well. So the completion of the canal might be seen as a good time to retake Ormpetarr.
The big issue would be the Red Wizards, Harpers, and the Emerald Enclave interfering with the project. The Red Wizards want a foothold in the region, the Harpers would be worried about Sespech gaining too much power by the deal and the druids would be worried about the environmental ramifications. Thuragar would have to juggle the needs of his people and Sespech with the demands of the Emerald Enclave, the threats of Chondath and the Theives' guild. Meanwhile his inevitable Yuan-ti inlaws in Hlondeth would want to see their lands and families bound by a marriage between their heirs, and would want to see the region open up to trade as it would make them more powerful by the marriage. So Thuragar would likely see more pressure from Hlondeth for their heirs to marry in the form of promises of financial aide, trade contracts, and military assistance. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 17:03:48
You might be interested in my campaign thread (link in my sig). I'm totally up for discussing it, since it's one of my favourite subjects, I just want to know where to start.  |
| Cbad285 |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 12:51:23
actually, ya know what. I am playing in a sea of fallen stars campaign and this thread has really peaked my interest. I don't mean to digress here, but what about a conversation concerning the politics of building a canal from the nagaflow to the lake of steam. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 12:33:56
A big part of my campaign is down to what kind of toll Sespech and Nimpeth get to charge people who cross the natural part of the waterway after the canal is done. Bearing in mind they didn't pay for any of the construction, but Innarlith (or Chondath, or anyone else for that matter) can't really stop them from charging a toll, unless they're prepared for war. |
| Cbad285 |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 09:35:10
If you're considering a canal through the nagaflow. I would think Sespech would be your biggest issue since Ormpetarr sits on the nagawater, the two choices being, have Arrabar's support or the support of ormpetarr. personally I'd go with Arrabar. People never like to be kicked off their lands, but divvying up the spoils of war is something else entirely |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 05:00:29
I should think a major factor in building a large canal anywhere is being able to control the surrounding land. I don't think it's all that feasible, in the Realms, for any country to build a canal that isn't in territory they control. You have to make sure the route is secure and stays that way. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 01:19:35
That's a very nice possible concept... with the Nagaflow route gone, maybe the Shou would go for that. Though why they wouldn't just sail around Zakhara kind of beats me - trading across the Hordelands should be really, really difficult, and a canal to the Sea of Swords won't change that. But at least it's something for those Shou in the Dragon Coast to be doing. Maybe the Emperor has a really crazy plan to make a canal from the Gbor Nor to Shou Lung as well, then they could sail across the whole continent, heh!
I think Markus' idea for the regional implications are very good too. And it definitely needs to be named the "Dragon Canal".
Edit: Oh, wait, they have a portal from the Celestial Sea to the Dragonmere? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 20:07:51
I had an interesting thought last night, and I was wondering how some of you would feel about them making it canon come 5e.
The Shou have a portal in the Dragonsea. The Shou are also known for their extensive canal network (thousands of miles of them, all added together). The Shou even have an embassy in Elversult (of all places!)
What if they saw the potential for a canal between the Dragonsea and Iriaebor? What if they began to make arrnagements for building such a canal - at their expense - on the condition they would have control over it?
Then after the Spellplague hits, Cormyr seizes all that land around there - the Gritstone Moorland and northern shore of the Dragoncoast. Now the Shou have their plans in-place, but don't want to have an altercation with the one kingdom that was able to take-down the Tuigan (something Shou Lung couldn't even do). So they make a deal - they will build the canal, and they become trade-partners with Cormyr. Iriaebor becomes a semi-autonomous citystate with advisors from both empires (and I can see a lot of intrigue going on there). So its part of Cormyr, but it still retains quite a bit of its independence... and also becomes a hotbed of international intrigue, as it becomes one of the most prestigious trade-centers in all The Realms.
I was thinking - that would be an interesting bit to add into 5e, and it shouldn't rock the 'lore light' 4th edition lore much at all. If they never detailed what happened in that region (and I don't believe they did), then it could just be played-off as something that wasn't mentioned (and it could have taken years and years, and has only been fully operational in the last decade or so... especially if the shou planned to use magic to build most of it).
How do the rest of you feel about something like that? If I didn't already have a completely re-imagined FR, I would so do that in my campaign. In fact, I am almost tempted to glue the continent back together just so I can add such an intriguing plot-device into the mix. Eventualy Iriaebor would compete with waterdeep for the title of 'Realms most important city'.
Not to mention, there are extensive ruins beneath the city, just like Waterdeep. The novel Crypt of the Shadowking revolves around those ruins, and the lengths the Zhents went through to control them (and retrieve artifacts). In fact, all that construction might just 'disturb' something that was better left undisturbed. 
EDIT: I almost forgot the most important part! What would they call it? The Dragon Canal of course - the one name that both nations could whole-heartedly agree upon. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 17:37:06
quote:
Originally posted by Cbad285
Even still. Large scale caravans and their costs might well be more profitable than magic. Have seen the prices for teleport spells? It's like 50,000 gold, and thats without insurance...No sir, the traveling merchant still rules over land. (...)
Well, yes, that's my point too. We're agreeing here. It is possible to haul goods using magic, but it doesn't seem to be very cost-effective most of the time, which makes both caravans and canals potentially attractive alternatives. |
| Cbad285 |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 17:24:40
I would guess that is the idea behind the portals across the desert. I remember reading something along those lines in the book of the anoroch (i never spell that right). Or maybe it was zhentil keep?...Either way, it had something to do with securing it's safety with the tribes of the desert which ultimately failed.
Even still. Large scale caravans and their costs might well be more profitable than magic. Have seen the prices for teleport spells? It's like 50,000 gold, and thats without insurance...No sir, the traveling merchant still rules over land. And though a canal to quicken routes to the sword coast would be great, there is only one place to do that and it's through the nagaflow |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 17:12:08
Very good points. And I didn't know about the Zhents using portals to bypass Anauroch, did they move goods through them too?
In any case, in my interpretation, magical transportation is somewhat of an analogue to express shipping by plane. It's useful for light-weight, valuable cargo, or stuff you need to get there really quick (and it has much more stability issues than airlines).
As for caravans peddling their goods on the way, yes, that'd be common practice. I didn't mean powerful magic would make roads completely obsolete, but they would make the kind of large caravan that crosses the Western Heartlands obsolete (and while not as entrenched as modern corporations and government regulations, the Realms does have powerful trade costers who do place restrictions on their employees). You'd probably have a system where goods are magically shipped to large centres like Iriaebor and Scornubel, and local traders would then make runs to all the local villages - no need to cross the large expanses of dangerous and unprofitable wilderness. |
| Cbad285 |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 08:49:02
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Cbad285, I suppose that depends on how you treat magic in your campaign. But if what you say is true, there should be almost zero overland trade between the Inner Sea and the Sword Coast, something we know not to be true. Caravans are expensive - in the long run, much more expensive than a canal, since the whole point of a canal is decreasing costs of transportation. If magic were being widely employed to teleport goods from one end of the world to another, the Zhents wouldn't give a rat's arse about their Black Road, etcetera.
The point is, if magic-based transportation seems to make caravans (and therefore canals) obsolete, clearly we must assume unspecified issues with magic, not wipe out caravans, which feature prominently.
Also, yes, making the rivers navigable is a major part of canal-building. That's also one of the reasons why the Nagaflow route would be so much better (cheaper) than the Dragonmere one, or any of the others.
quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt
To Cbad285: I think it does depend on the level of magic in a given version of the Realms. Sometimes magic's presented as stable and readily available, other times it's uncommon and unreliable. But the Realms does have one thing limiting water based transportation that the real world never did; monsters.
Alright. Well first as far as my games go, I run traditional 2e so no crazy magic or high level characters except those novel heros presented in canon. Our highest level caster is a lv 16 necromancer who has no real interaction with trade anyway. So magic as a reliable aid to transportation is very rare. My statement was partially 1st person perspective as a pc who hypothetically has connections to high level magic that normal merchants would not. it was also a bit sarcastic as well ;)
As far as the use/costs and reasons for building a canal go...They are less expensive vs over land travel. However realize that caravans trade en route while they head for their final destination. If a deal is struck mid-travel they may very well end up at the end of their road with a totally different cargo, unless of course their contracted in which case they may still wheel and deal. merchants are hustlers after all and unlike semi-drivers of today they weren't bound by corporate regulations, at least not as often and with much different stakes in mind. Considering long-term thinking, the frequent availability of supplies and ease of access on land is more accommodating than sea-fairing. If you lose a main-mass in the middle of the sea of fallen stars you better have ores aboard your ship or you are in a pickle. While a rider, or even a man on foot can walk to the nearest village and possibly get a new wagon wheel or axle if met with trouble on the road. My train of thought here is just trying to describe the tradition of caravan trade vs sea trade in this time period. I would say as well that a big reason for constructing a canal is to bridge trade routes across landmass vs going the long way around. IE, the panama canal. However that canal cost a huge amount of money and hundreds of lives to build. As I said, magic in my game is not so widely used for trade. It is of course, but only by personally wealthy or by magic users themselves and they are not likely to aid anyone but themselves in such cases. (a note on the zhents here) didn't they setup a gateway to bypass the anauroch desert with magical portals? I'm pretty sure that is a thing...oh, and yes the nagaflow is a better choice.
Also, yes monsters are a real danger in D&D world. However, statistically I would think you are more likely to be killed on the road by monsters than at sea...kinda like flying I would guess, right? |
| thenightgaunt |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 05:14:47
Good points from both of you.
To Mapolq: I agree with you're rough estimate of the time period and the idea that the canal age is just starting. The feeling I've always gotten from the Realms is of humanity just before the Renaissance. And the motivation for water transport of goods is spot on.
To Cbad285: I think it does depend on the level of magic in a given version of the Realms. Sometimes magic's presented as stable and readily available, other times it's uncommon and unreliable. But the Realms does have one thing limiting water based transportation that the real world never did; monsters. The Nagas in the Nagawater for example are a major threat. Real world sailors only had to worry about the engineering of the ships, other people, and nature. The threat of a snakeman or aquatic troll gnawing it's way through your hull adds a whole new level of danger.
|
| Mapolq |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 16:04:55
Cbad285, I suppose that depends on how you treat magic in your campaign. But if what you say is true, there should be almost zero overland trade between the Inner Sea and the Sword Coast, something we know not to be true. Caravans are expensive - in the long run, much more expensive than a canal, since the whole point of a canal is decreasing costs of transportation. If magic were being widely employed to teleport goods from one end of the world to another, the Zhents wouldn't give a rat's arse about their Black Road, etcetera.
The point is, if magic-based transportation seems to make caravans (and therefore canals) obsolete, clearly we must assume unspecified issues with magic, not wipe out caravans, which feature prominently. Since this kind of magic does not feature so prominently, it is fairly easy to do. It may have to do with some lack of commitment, rivalry or tacit agreement between powerful spellcasters. It may have to do with difficulties to apply some types of magic in a large scale (most versions of shrink item specify *one item*, for example, you can't do it on a heap of stone). It may have to do with instabilities in long range teleportation of large quantities of goods (we have canon examples of malfunctioning portals, and I don't think any rules actually say what happens if you put a hundred tons of magically shrunk stuff in a Bag of Holding). And so on.
Also, yes, making the rivers navigable is a major part of canal-building. That's also one of the reasons why the Nagaflow route would be so much better (cheaper) than the Dragonmere one, or any of the others. Very little use of rivers overall, and those rivers are presumably considerably wide and deep at those points (you don't have to cross the *upper* sections of the Nagaflow at all - the first fords are about two hundred kilometres upriver). There might be shallow areas, but it's a minor problem compared to the other routes. |
| Cbad285 |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 14:50:30
quote:
Is that the book version or your own solution? Cause if that's the grand project from the book I'm disappointed. If it's your solution then it's not a bad idea. And that's not some backhanded compliment/insult. From a story telling pov, the creation of a massive project like a canal is a great seed for countless stories and plots. What's not to love? But from a player pov, the best solution is 1. quick, 2. reliable, and 3. not easily twisted by the GM.
That is my version of a solution. And I agree on the project canal being a great plot device. However, it requires a great attention to the internal actions of it's construction. I could see some protection runs as adventuring angles. The idea of political avenues for debates or even full on verbal or physical combat could very well ensue. But being that Im running/playing a huge campaign in the dragon sea and have considered this exact situation several times. The end result is always the same. Magic, is the fastest, possibly cheapest and much easier to protect solution than building a canal. Not to mention the fact that travel to the canal to a crossing point far enough down river for reasonable construction brings countless risk to ships. That's disregarding the fact that real merchant ships who would need to make the trek into the river systems would run aground without widening the river of choice itself. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 07:21:10
The sabotage of the Canal is a little hazy. I think the Watercourse Trilogy is a splendid idea, but the author tried too hard to make the plot an exact copy of The Fountainhead, to which he partly admits. I find is kind of interesting as a proof-of-concept that a non-fantasy novel can be written in the Realms, and I'd still call it a success, but barely.
Now to the topic. The Canal was sabotaged with smokepowder, which was being used to help dig it. Charges were put along the length of it, but considering the size we'd have to suppose it targeted key spots like locks and trickier areas. The Canal was eventually completed a few years later, which does make sense. The sabotage probably delayed it a few years as people had to deal with the political fallout and diggers had to clear all the rubble and resume digging and building. Then it was finally destroyed again with the Spellplague, which just blew the entire terrain surrounding it to bits of whatever.
As for the reason stopping it. As I just posted on another thread (http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18296) , in my campaign the reason for this particular stretch of land to have taken so long to be "bridged" is the Emerald Enclave, though they don't say it openly.
And, obviously, this specific canal is special because it happens to connect the largest inland body of water in Toril, home of some of its most rich and advanced civilizations, to the oceans. I'm sure there were other canals built elsewhere in Faerûn, they just don't get all the press. They aren't interesting enough to appear in a sourcebook or novel. There is another canon one, though, which is interesting mainly because it's not ordinary - Labrand's Folly in Thindol, built by a powerful mage who tunneled through rock using an artifact, with the rather mad idea of making an underground river connecting the Thingulph and the Shining Sea (another good route, by the way - but seriously, tunneling?). The result was an unstable, hardly navigable river that ended up filling with monsters, which makes sense. He could probably have built a functioning canal elsewhere, but his motives were not really known, and people don't come up with canal-digging artifacts every day so his work remained unique for a long time.
To wrap up, I'll say that civilization in Faerûn is really just getting to global reach in the 1300s, so I don't find it that strange that their "canal age" would be starting then. Waterdeep is a few centuries old, and so is Sembia. Chondath went through ups and downs, the Old Empires were presumably always decadent and turned inwards. Until some time ago, no one would care about building a great canal. The Shoon Emperors would probably laugh at the idea of building a canal to trade with the "barbarians" from the Inner Sea, and the God-Kings of Mulhorand would think similarly about their Calishite counterparts. In the 1300s, though, there are no great empires left in Faerûn, and people are getting more pragmatic about foreigners. |
| thenightgaunt |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 22:01:11
This all does raise an interesting question. What stops canal building in a fantasy setting? Or rather, why is the Watercourse Trilogy a special event other than location?
The real push for canals comes form the need to transport goods and even though the Realms are pre-industrial there's still demand. Goods like lumber and foodstuffs would likely be the major trade along the canal (initially) given how protective elves and druids had become. But what's the real limitation?
If we look at the Erie canal as an example, the first real 15 mile stretch of canal between Rome and Utica was cut in 2 years using little more than men with shovels, horse drawn carts, and rope.
So 40 miles from the Nagaflow river to the lake of steam is nothing. The basic engineering tech is advanced for pre-renasance humans, but not for dwarves by any means. Given that the classic method is, dig a level trench while building up the sides for pack animals to tow barges from. Then waterproof it with 3ft of puddle clay on the bottom, 1 ft on the sides, and top the sides with stone blocks to serve as the towpath. Throw in any sort of magic into the construction process (1 mid-high level earth elementalist would shave years off the project) and you're good to go. Luckily the difference in elevation between the two bodies does not appear to be great at all so maybe 1 or 2 locks to control the flow and you're good.
At the very least there should be ruined or still operating examples of canal construction from the Netherese (even with magic, you need a way for pesants to move water and goods around to supply an empire) or various dwarven kingdoms.
Given the simplicity of canal design, it does have me wondering how the canal was destroyed at the end of the watercourse trilogy. It's not hard to repair a retaining wall or to clear out a canal if you still have men standing around with tools. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 18:21:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm pretty certain the Inner and Outer seas ARE connected in 4e, via the Shining Lands (which no longer exist, if I'm not mistaken). Still, an extremely long way around.
Really like the idea of a Iriaebor canal going to the Dragonmere - that would be SWEET.
That would seem to be true... there's a river from the Lake of Salt through Okoth and the Gulf of Luiren, though it's oddly brownish in the map. Another one for WotC's big book on "How to make cool ideas moot" (Well, not entirely, but you get my point). |
| thenightgaunt |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 17:34:56
quote:
Originally posted by Cbad285
extension 3, shrink spell, extension 2 for duration, bag of holding, teleport without error to the baldur's gate. Next question :)
Is that the book version or your own solution? Cause if that's the grand project from the book I'm disappointed. If it's your solution then it's not a bad idea. And that's not some backhanded compliment/insult. From a story telling pov, the creation of a massive project like a canal is a great seed for countless stories and plots. What's not to love? But from a player pov, the best solution is 1. quick, 2. reliable, and 3. not easily twisted by the GM.
Yours is a great player solution as it takes advantage of basic magic and it's dang near foolproof (though any GM worth his/her salt could throw a few wrenches in those gears). I'd be against it for world building though for 2 reasons.
1. The scope of the project. A canal that connects 2 sides of the world like this one would get a lot of traffic. For example the Panama Canal gets something like 30-40 ships a day (in modern times that is). So we'd be looking at a ton of traffic daily. Stings of barges carrying tons of wood, coal and stone for example.
2. A magic based system would be great but it'd require a lot of powerful mages and the cost would be rather high. A simple trench dug between the two bodies of water (even across 40 miles) would be a much more affordable if slower option (payment for men, oxen, carts, and guards). And a magical gate system would be really expensive and vulnerable. Now don't get me wrong, on the small scale it's a fantastic system. Look at Aurora's Whole Realms for example. But the real money and power in a medieval economy might be the transportation of massive amounts of fundamentally important resources reliably across great distances. Open it up and you can ship tons of lumber from Amn to the Vilhon Reach, avoiding those pesky elves.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt
So should there have been a connecting waterway?
Why?
Well, they're 2 massive bodies of water and a waterway would connect the two and really open up the rest of the continent to trade and growth. The Realm's geologically is rather unstable thanks to magic and the Sea of Fallen Stars is a really massive body of water that dwarfs the Caspian Sea (the largest real world inland sea that doesn't connect to an ocean naturally). So you'd think that with storms, magical disasters, and natural erosion that a connection would form somewhere.
Also one of the driving forces behind exploration in human history has been to find more reliable trade/transportation routes to new and exotic markets. It makes for a great story. Hunting for, securing and protecting a natural waterway is a great story. Not as interesting as a massive construction project to build one but either way it's a fun premise.
And thanks for the feedback y'all. This kind of discourse is one of the things I love about Candlekeep. |
| Cbad285 |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 10:14:37
extension 3, shrink spell, extension 2 for duration, bag of holding, teleport without error to the baldur's gate. Next question :) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 10:02:10
quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt
Recently I've been reading more on the Vilhon Reach, and I noticed something that struck me as rather odd. I've never really noticed any waterways that connected the Sea of Fallen Stars with the Sea of Swords/Trackless Sea/Shining Sea/etc...
So should there have been a connecting waterway?
Why? |
| thenightgaunt |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 08:35:48
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
The Watercourse Trilogy deals with building a canal from Innarlith on the Lake of Steam through to the Nagaflow which would connect the Sea of Fallen Stars with the Shining Sea.
From the reviews of the series I'm a bit hesitant to dive into them atm (from "amazing" to "crap" so a "meh" average it would seem). I also still have a good amount of Salvatore to catch up on so even if I do give it a shot it won't be for a very long time. From the summaries I came across it sounds like it wasn't actually a normal canal but a magical one using teleportation gates to reduce the distance needed.
Is this right? That sounds kinda dumb to be honest. Yes magic is a key part to the Realms, but logic should trump magic. Why not just dig the canal? If time's an issue, get a spade of colossal excavation, cast some dig spells, and summon a few earth elementals. Could someone please describe the canal from the book? |
|
|
