| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Fendrikor |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 04:10:46
... how hard are you on your players about divine spells?
One player is argueing to me that he has been waiting a long time to use slay living, and sees it as a form of divine smiteing which he intends only to use on evil enemies.
Slay living however is a Necromantic Death effect.
Lathander is a god of life, Reknewal and regeneration.
However in Pathfinder it has changed from instant death, to 12d6 damage.
He is argueing that because it is no longer an instant death effect, it is now just a damage spell and there for less evil.
.. I dont think it fits the Character of the God, so i have come here to ask opinions. I feel that Vitoing this spell will usher in a period of political correctness and assesment of every spell my player trys to choose... At worst, he may go to increasingly obscure sources to find similar spells in increasingly grey areas.
In effect, creating a slippery slope.
how do you see this situation? |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 19:04:17
I like Eilserus' idea of 'retooling' the spell (I've done this sort of thing numerous times). I generally have a quick discussion with the player about what they want and come up with something on the fly. Typically, I don't look at priest spells as 'magic' in that they need a prayer book to learn them. I prefer priests be able to ask their god for what they want and they get it (within reason). In this case, after talking with the DM (who is acting as Lathander) the priest gets the (new) 'Lathander's Wrath' spell. The player feels like he/she did something special with their character and the game flows on smoothly from there. Also, since you really just altered an existing spell, you maintain balance because the mechanics are nearly identical. Win-win here.
I like Pathfinder, but I'm dismayed that they reduced the power of magic (which has been the trend since 2e, every edition has curtailed magic to some degree). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 17:34:20
At Fendrikor - yeah, I don't have a problem with the bad guys having the evil "slay living" spell and it being more powerful (i.e. save or die). That's why evil guys go evil... they get the few "extra powered" nasty spells.... and the good guys get some spells that are definitely never going to be given to the evil guys. Basically, I don't see a problem with a second spell. The only problem I have with it is what to name it, such that its a "generic smite for untyped damage" type of name. I wouldn't make it a specific to Lathander spell... I'd just make it the default spell for non-evil clerics whose gods would be pissed if they used a necromantic death effect. Smite Divine Enemy sounds like a decent name (just complex enough to be not commonly duplicated... and you could add "superior" and "lesser" versions of it). Smite Sacred Enemy could also work... not liking smite holy enemy, because then it sounds like it should do holy damage. The advantage here is that you're keeping the same spell from both systems (i.e. the slay living spell from PHB 3.5 for the evil folks, and the new renamed and removing of type version that Pathfinder prefers). Therefore, in that instance you present with your players, I'd just say "its the evil version, get over it" and the player would stay dead and they'd have to work around that. Problem solved (i.e. your player can't be mad because you're giving him exactly the spell he wants, he just has to call it something different)... and your bad guys can be very bad indeed. |
| Fendrikor |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 17:19:44
Here is what i Ruled (Copy pasted from a Facebook convo to the group)
I do not feel it in Character for a priest of lathander to cast any spell with the Death descriptor. if your resorting to these spells over other spell options, you probably should be playing a different kind of priest.
Inflict spells, given by lathander, cause Fire damage but do not present a risk of the target Catching fire. This manifests as Extreem heat - and light - Cast in a Flash. It does not heal the undead. For the record, when your Healing spells are cast upon the undead - they will manifest in the same way as your inflict spells - in heat and flame to burn the forces of evil to cinder.
To this end - they no longer count as Necromancy - but evocation (fire and good).
This is different from Kossuth, the God of fire, in that his clerics CAN actually set things on fire with their Inflict spells.
For now, these house rules - i think - work and suit the theme.
Additionally - when you channel divinity, it will also rejuvinate nearby plantlife. When you cast the undead destroying Variant - Again - the undead will burn to ashes before the might of Lathander.
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| Eilserus |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 17:15:55
Very good point Fendrikor. Maybe he receives the Slay Living spell but it's not from Lathander, but from Bane. Temptation to the side of evil. The dark side is a pathway to many abilities and all that. ;) Course that might open up a can of worms and the only time I recall two deities in competition over a priest was Shakti in Elaine Cunningham's Liriel series.
Tough call either way I guess. I'd definitely talk to the players to set expectations. I wouldn't want to penalize one player at the expense of another player either. |
| Fendrikor |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 16:27:24
At Foxhelm - Eh... that might create too many roleplay scenes and bog down the session. Though it is an interesting take. i was considering takeing all Death effects off Lathanders spell list and putting them in the 'naughty bad' pile, but the slippery slope lays in Inflict spells... Personally, i dont see Lathander using negative energy or bestowing it. Rather, i see inflict spells given by him to come in the form of a 'Burning touch'.
In my past descriptions of negative energy in action, i have described people being grabbed by the throat and quite litterally being 'rotted rapidly and shaken appart', or in other cases 'their eyes bulging with black veins clotting beneath the skin and suddenly and inexplicably dieing' as an effect of their bodily functions simply ceasing.
I dont see Lathander giving this.. i cant describe negative energy in a 'tame' way.. it is a killing force. The Antithesis to the living. i mean , hell, it 'heals' the undead.
At Eliserus - I was considering makeing a lathandery version of the same... but then would that not kill the fun of say, a party member who can use the spell (in this case, one of the party members is a Witch). Its her Toy, she should be able to throw it around and say 'I know something you dont know'.After all, For the most part she will be massivly overshadowed by the Sheer Might of the Party cleric anyway... Would i be maximising the partys fun? or crushing diversity by caving to pressure?
At Sleyvas - Amen to that, I was running a module (city of the spider queen) and 3 doors in there was a Slay living trap. I didnt check Pathfinders changes to the Rogue Failed his Save and Died on the door. Then they looked it up at that very moment and realised he insteasd takes 12d6 damage. you wouldnt believe how irritated i was. I didnt want him to die, but it kinda cheapened the lethality of the trap. AND the shock effect. At level 10, Death is a Setback, not the end. Slay living is a Tame way to die. But still, as i said to Eliserus, i dont know how i feel about just Renaming the spell. There has to be Some 'more in theme' spell of the same level he could use. Like Flame Strike. That would make more sense. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 13:18:06
Yeah, pathfinder screwed it up from a aesthetic viewpoint. If its slay living and a necromantic (death) effect, then it should be doing negative energy damage AT LEAST if not doing some save or die effect. Instead its untyped damage. Personally, I'd say that there are two different spells. one is called slay living, is a necromantic (death) effect and does 12d6 negative energy damage (well, personally, I'd keep the old version with save or die). The other version should be called "Smite Divine Enemy" and it be exactly the same (minus the necromantic <death>) wording as their version of slay living. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 05:12:27
I imagine the player wants the high damage spell, and well, everyone likes to blow things up. If all it does is damage now, I'd just change the name to something like Lathander's Wrath or Fires of the Dawnbringer, make it a flame or divine fire based attack and let 'em have it. Maybe it won't affect good creatures etc. Ultimately, I'd do whatever is going to make the campaign more enjoyable for everyone. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 04:31:33
There might be options story and rules wise to use.
One is to use a variant created by Lathander or similar deities (like my favourite Finder, or other gods with the previous Renewal domain). Perhaps like Sailor Moons attack, if the being chooses or can be redeem the attack only damages the evil of the being causing purifing the creature. Otherwise if they are evil, especially with their choice, damage is cause.
This is good cause either renewal happens by removing the evil taint, or by removing evil. Rebirth can not happen without death or destruction, in one form or another.
Another options is this. Most spells are given out by deities without a second thought. Slay living, however, is on Lathander's Blacklist. Which means when he gives it out, he is constantly monitoring the divine user holding the spell. Either personally or by way of angel dedicated to this job. They act in judgement of the caster who asks for this dark boon. To see if the wielder has tried all other options to promote the way of the Dawnbringer, and if the spell is the true last resort. If the user fails the judgement, he will be punished by the god depending on the degree o the infraction (But is allowed to appeal their case, but they will need a solid case or good charisma skills).
Thoughts? |
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