| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| portose_sharpe |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 22:22:09
Hello my fellow Dm's
i have a question regarding stacking.HP/AC/Saves/Stats.
i have a high level cleric who casts alot of spells improving his Charater Greatly, and in 3rd edition is clearly stated what stacked and what didnt, but since the change over to 3.5 rules i can not find anything about stacking.
does anyone have any information and what does and does not stack.
like
force / morale / deflection / ability stats / all these types of bouns through spells.
thxs |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 00:09:19
righteous wrath of the faithful (source CD) - this one would work in theory, but in normal use it fatigues the person after spell expiration for 10 minutes. Thus, persisting such an effect should garner more and more fatigue on the person throughout the day such that when the spell expires, the DM would be well within his rights to have the person suffer a heartattack (caveat, if the person finds the ways to defeat fatigue, then this might be more possible).
holy aura (source PH) - this one works as printed. Note: requires 500 gp spent every day that its cast.
prayer (source PH) - this one's a nice +1 luck bonus to att, wpn dmg, saves, and skill checks. However, the question becomes, is a +1 bonus worth persisting everyday versus just adding this +1 bonus onto an item as an additional enhancement? If affecting multiple people though (for instance, a patrol of 20 about to go out)... well worth it.
recitation (source CD) - basically improved prayer
dragon breath (source CD) - basically, give yourself a 10d8 some type of dmg dragon breath
mass lesser vigor/vigorous circle (source CD) - both of these grant fast healing to people when the spell is cast.
elation (source BoED) - gives +5 speed increase and +2 morale to str and dex. Note this works for bards and wizards too.
For the archivist - swift haste (source CAdv) - is a decent way to give yourself haste all day. Its a ranger spell though, so thus why I list for archivist only.
For the archivist - blade storm (source (CAdv) - ranger spell that lets you attack anyone in reach with each weapon you hold.
For the archivist - poison thorns (source CD) - a retributive druid spell that causes 1d6 + str bonus in piercing dmg to those that attack you, plus cause poison
For the mystic theurge - critical strike (source CAdv) is a nice way to add +1d6 sneak attack damage.
For the mystic theurge - wraith strike (source CAdv) - you resolve attacks as melee touch attacks instead of melee attacks
there's also the standard stuff that people always find like fireshield, etc... There's also a lot of spells that you CAN persist, but not ones that I'd necessarily recommend. BTW, if anyone has other spells that they are interested in, the more the merrier. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 09:57:34
I thought throwing in some numbers would reinforce the gut feeling that "something wasn't right" so i just pointed out the most obvious math conundrums.
I know those spell combos are still popular (even not persisted those can turn a cleric or multiclassed character into an effective front-liner for a fight or two) but with the official changes the gap between the real bonuses and those that portose_sharpe related to us biggens, further driving home the point.
The domain powers tip the balance in favor of the player but both have limited use because are 1/day, last 1 round (+Str) and 1 hour (+saves) and neither can be persisted.
So without resorting to extremely esotic types of bonus (profane, sacred, divine, insight, psionic, ecc..) the stats given by portose_sharpe can't be real.
At this point, either him and the player sit down reviewing everything or he gets a complete list of buffs/items for "peer review" here.
Personally, i hate debating this kind of things with my players because these are a source of endless attrition. Luckily it seems the "rules-lawyer" in my static group has given up, so we just have to check the books for some spells recently. |
| portose_sharpe |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 09:42:33
nice links |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 01:11:11
Whenever I see this question, I always reference the ol' Does it Stack? articles (Part One, Part Two, Part Three, Part Four). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Oct 2013 : 18:28:06
lol, I just went to the link you provided. The spells I pointed out, looks like they're "officially" modified. Unfortunately, its one of those things where its not updated in the rulebooks, so only someone that keeps up with WotC errata is going to know they've made the change (whereas, people may keep up with new rulebooks, few keep up with errata). So, everything in righteous might is cut in half roughly and divine favor is cut in half. I didn't know about it, and I'm betting this guy's player didn't know. Still a viable option to persist the 3 and go warrior, especially with divine power's change to base attack. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Oct 2013 : 18:16:29
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
yeah, I'm betting if you start looking, a lot doesn't stack. HOWEVER, since I'm betting he found that spell that infuses you with your deity's favor (can't recall the name right now) and gives you a huge bonus to str.... also note it makes you large.
Divine Power? That gives +6 enhancement(!!) bonus to strenght (doesn't stack with "ogre power" equipment or bull's strength spells), BAB = your level and +1 HP/lvl.
Righteous Might? Allow me to introduce you to http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20040910news another part they didn't change is the fact that Righteous Might doesn't stack with other size increasing spells and effects.
Just with the PHB we have: base + 6 (from divine power) + 4 (Righteous Might size increase) + inherent (tomes/whishes/miracles, max +5) + rage (spell/potion, +2) = 50 ... does he have 33+ base strength? Are you using spells/feats/items from other sourcebooks that let him go this high?
EDIT: wait does he have the Protection and Strength domains? If yes than maybe he's persisting the domain powers (that aren't spells so can't be persisted): Strength gives you your cleric level as a bonus to Strength for 1 round while Protection gives you your cleric level as a bonus to saves for 1 hour. In this case those would be +20 but the unbalancing one (the Str bonus) lasts only for 1 round so meh, whatever.
Demzer, that's what he was saying, the guy had these great scores, but he was using things that shouldn't stack.
Righteous might, yeah, that's the one that all the clerics like to persist. Gives a +8 size bonus to str, +4 size bonus to con, and +4 enhancement bonus to natural armor plus damage reduction/alignment (and if you combine that damage reduction with 2 or 3 other damage reductions based on other things like weapon type, weapon material(s), etc... you can really make it good). But your size doubles and your weight becomes 8 times more (so an average person going to the second floor of a building may just crash through because they may weigh almost a ton with their own weight plus their gear). No way to get around it either.. the size bonus goes if you reduce your size. Flight becomes important.
Divine power is the second one you use with that. Its particularly important with the mystic theurge build I was discussing not because of the +6 enhancement to str. That one is important because your base attack becomes equivalent to your character level (which can increase #'s of attacks). So, you have this mystic theurge with HORRIBLE base attack, and all of a sudden its like they're a fighter. Then you throw in their militia feat and they can use any weapon. Throw in a two handed weapon and an animated heavy shield with all the strength bonus... you've got a damn good warrior. Throw in some other persisted effects (I think the low level divine favor also works, providing a +6 luck bonus to attack and damage rolls). Throw in power attack with the two handed weapon... you've got one nasty mage. Also throw in the divine metamagic feat and you can see how you're doing very well, especially if you can find some artificial way to increase your turning attempts or Charisma.
BTW, a similar build is doable with the archivist instead of cleric and opens you up to a wider spell list and less dependence on both wis and int. However, you lose out on the domain powers that may give you the feats you need and the turning attempts to use with divine metamagic. Still, looking at the paladin, blackguard, druid, and ranger spell lists, there's some really good persistable spells there as well. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 25 Oct 2013 : 14:20:58
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
yeah, I'm betting if you start looking, a lot doesn't stack. HOWEVER, since I'm betting he found that spell that infuses you with your deity's favor (can't recall the name right now) and gives you a huge bonus to str.... also note it makes you large.
Divine Power? That gives +6 enhancement(!!) bonus to strenght (doesn't stack with "ogre power" equipment or bull's strength spells), BAB = your level and +1 HP/lvl.
Righteous Might? Allow me to introduce you to http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20040910news another part they didn't change is the fact that Righteous Might doesn't stack with other size increasing spells and effects.
Just with the PHB we have: base + 6 (from divine power) + 4 (Righteous Might size increase) + inherent (tomes/whishes/miracles, max +5) + rage (spell/potion, +2) = 50 ... does he have 33+ base strength? Are you using spells/feats/items from other sourcebooks that let him go this high?
EDIT: wait does he have the Protection and Strength domains? If yes than maybe he's persisting the domain powers (that aren't spells so can't be persisted): Strength gives you your cleric level as a bonus to Strength for 1 round while Protection gives you your cleric level as a bonus to saves for 1 hour. In this case those would be +20 but the unbalancing one (the Str bonus) lasts only for 1 round so meh, whatever. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Oct 2013 : 13:42:43
quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
ya the reason i was askign about stacking is beacause of a cleric pc.
with his spells stacking, here is what he was ending with.
str 50
dex 30
con 46
wis 46
HP, 527
Ac 70
To Hit 76/76/71/66/61
to damage was 2d8 +58
and all his saves where in the 70+'s
and keep in mind he is level 20
and this is why i asked about stacking
yeah, I'm betting if you start looking, a lot doesn't stack. HOWEVER, since I'm betting he found that spell that infuses you with your deity's favor (can't recall the name right now) and gives you a huge bonus to str.... also note it makes you large. Being persisted and large and walking around town.... well, it tends to make the average person scream "giant" and run. It also makes it near impossible to move easily in most stores, etc... Play with that idea with him/her. |
| Renin |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 19:20:28
quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
ya the reason i was askign about stacking is beacause of a cleric pc.
with his spells stacking, here is what he was ending with.
str 50
dex 30
con 46
wis 46
HP, 527
Ac 70
To Hit 76/76/71/66/61
to damage was 2d8 +58
and all his saves where in the 70+'s
and keep in mind he is level 20
and this is why i asked about stacking
Yeah, I call shenanigans on that, and just flat out say 'no.' |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:51:57
@Slyvas:
I plan to start a new campaign in just a few weeks (using my Misbegotten Realms) with older players, ranging from 19-25. Two are my older sons who've I've run for before, and the rest are their friends (who've I've played a lot of fun games with, but not D&D yet).
You see, I am building an apartment in my older son's basement, for my second oldest and his buddy. They plan on having lots of 'young folk' hanging out every weekend.
My price - they let me run a game for them. 
I just spackled the place last night, and I am going there to do a second coat in a few minutes. It should be painted and they should be moving in by Sunday (hopefully). The entire place was designed to have fun (they still don't understand why I insisted on a disco ball... KIDS!). 
Then they are MINE. Bwha ha ha ha! (rubbing hands together menacingly}
Still, none of them own any P&P RPG books, so I'm good for at least a little while (strange, that, since some of them are the classic 'geek brigade'). Hope my lame sense of humor works for the older crowd.  |
| portose_sharpe |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:17:53
ya the reason i was askign about stacking is beacause of a cleric pc.
with his spells stacking, here is what he was ending with.
str 50
dex 30
con 46
wis 46
HP, 527
Ac 70
To Hit 76/76/71/66/61
to damage was 2d8 +58
and all his saves where in the 70+'s
and keep in mind he is level 20
and this is why i asked about stacking
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:06:34
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
thanks for the help and information.
the change to 6 slot from 4 for persistent spell was a a shock for the pc.
thanks again
LOL, its always the clerics that want to persist everything. Of course, having the spell list that works with it helps. Everyone who initially sees persistent spell thinks its for mages, but man clerics have some NICE abilities that fall within its ranks.
BTW, one particularly interesting build I'd played with in the past along these lines was a red knight following mystic theurge from Impiltur with the militia feat and a level in spellsword, some feycraft mithril armor & mithril heavy shield, the twilight magic armor ability. Also, the somatic weaponry feat and the persistent spell feat. I never put it to use on the field, but with all the wardings he could put on himself, he could turn himself into a warrior/mage pretty well and have healing. Was it overpowered? No, I feel like it was just balanced enough to make a character who was "good" in all situations but didn't excel. He could swing a sword that was +5 due to greater magic weapon, and hit for ok damage... but if he needed a spell, he had those too. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 15:52:37
quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
thanks for the help and information.
the change to 6 slot from 4 for persistent spell was a a shock for the pc.
thanks again
LOL, its always the clerics that want to persist everything. Of course, having the spell list that works with it helps. Everyone who initially sees persistent spell thinks its for mages, but man clerics have some NICE abilities that fall within its ranks. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 15:43:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You never had my players. <snip>
Nope - I can think of only three players I've had in all the years that owned their owned books; one was older then me, the other I taught (my brother-in-law, who went on to be the DM for his friends), and one of my bro-in-laws friends... who was annoying as hell.
That last guy - thats the reason why I don't like players who 'know the rules better then me'. I make most stuff up 'on the fly', its more fun that way (keeps the game moving). That guy had us cracking books open every two minutes to look stuff up. The only thing worse then having him as a player was having him DM (which I lived through only once, playing through a novel of Dragonlance - we literally weren't allowed to do anything that didn't happen "in the books").
I guess thats fun for some folks, but I like to play the game, not be governed by it.
I teach groups of 'kids' (what are called 'tweens' these days), and most of them go on to running their own games, and then I find a new group to teach. I enjoy their sense of wonder, not that "I can buy and read more rulebooks then you" attitude. When I throw a beholder at them, it scares the bejeezus out of them, because they don't have an MM statblock memorized (or even access to the book).
I am supposed to be having just as much fun as my players, not be tortured by rules-lawyers who want to annihilate the flow of the story I am trying to tell. Funny thing is, I think most of the 'shared world' writers go through much the same thing. Just sit back and enjoy the ride, and stop trying to analyze the crap out of everything. 
Stacking: Here's just one example - I allowed a player to use both Haste and Speed (I would not let the SAME spell stack, but different spells that do the same thing, YES). He ran right into a wall and knocked himself out, because he couldn't handle that much speed. That was MY call, and everyone thought it was funny as hell. That moment wouldn't have happened if I had been 'sticking to the rules'. If you stick to the RAW, you nerf their creativity, and thats a very fun aspect of D&D.
All IMHO, of course.
Yeah, to each his own. The players that I can find are all older (i.e. around my own age), and even that pool has dried up a lot since Katrina hit (haven't actually played for about 5 years.... which also roughly corresponded to 4e). Part of the fun that we all had as players was "between" games where we'd play with character creation and share ideas whenever they had the spare time to share (to that end, I as the DM was able to be "on their side" and give them ideas... so it was a good feel as opposed to always being the opposition... I also stole ideas from them too). This aspect of the game actually was about half of our game time, because with wives, kids, etc... we had to take the 15 minutes here and there that we could to play with game concepts (kind of like what I do here with candlekeep). We typically were only able to get together maybe 1 weekend day a month as a group, but when we were there... everything was prepped. We had "the book bitch" whose job was to look up rules while play continued if we ran into a snag, but generally it wasn't a problem because of all the time we spent outside of the game looking at the books. We had "the map bitch" who had to update the map, move people and monsters around (as DM, I let him move them as he saw fit with only minimal direction if I saw him being impractical or protecting his own character). He also had to figure out who was hit with area effects, etc... (he liked the little stencils we used), stick tokens under figures to notate special effects on them (paralyzed, etc...). We had the "initiative bitch" who kept track of who was going when. It freed me up for DM'ing.
On that note, I'd be interested in hearing how others may have run their games for keeping track of this kind of stuff. Its not something we often talk about, but oftentimes this is the kind of stuff that can make and break a game group. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 14:28:46
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You never had my players. <snip>
Nope - I can think of only three players I've had in all the years that owned their owned books; one was older then me, the other I taught (my brother-in-law, who went on to be the DM for his friends), and one of my bro-in-laws friends... who was annoying as hell.
That last guy - thats the reason why I don't like players who 'know the rules better then me'. I make most stuff up 'on the fly', its more fun that way (keeps the game moving). That guy had us cracking books open every two minutes to look stuff up. The only thing worse then having him as a player was having him DM (which I lived through only once, playing through a novel of Dragonlance - we literally weren't allowed to do anything that didn't happen "in the books").
I guess thats fun for some folks, but I like to play the game, not be governed by it.
I teach groups of 'kids' (what are called 'tweens' these days), and most of them go on to running their own games, and then I find a new group to teach. I enjoy their sense of wonder, not that "I can buy and read more rulebooks then you" attitude. When I throw a beholder at them, it scares the bejeezus out of them, because they don't have an MM statblock memorized (or even access to the book).
I am supposed to be having just as much fun as my players, not be tortured by rules-lawyers who want to annihilate the flow of the story I am trying to tell. Funny thing is, I think most of the 'shared world' writers go through much the same thing. Just sit back and enjoy the ride, and stop trying to analyze the crap out of everything.
Stacking: Here's just one example - I allowed a player to use both Haste and Speed (I would not let the SAME spell stack, but different spells that do the same thing, YES). He ran right into a wall and knocked himself out, because he couldn't handle that much speed. That was MY call, and everyone thought it was funny as hell. That moment wouldn't have happened if I had been 'sticking to the rules'. If you stick to the RAW, you nerf their creativity, and thats a very fun aspect of D&D.
All IMHO, of course. |
| portose_sharpe |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 10:38:31
thanks for the help and information.
the change to 6 slot from 4 for persistent spell was a a shock for the pc.
thanks again |
| Diffan |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 01:23:13
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
3 easy rules for stacking...
Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses stack.
Nothing else stacks unless the entry says so.
If it doesn't stack you take the best bonus.
Yep, this sums it up. Basically just check the spell for the wording since most of them have a source. For example Bless is a morale bonus and thus stacks with Divine Favor since that is a Luck bonus. Similarily, Shield of Faith is a deflection bonus and wouldn't stack with a Ring of Protection +1 (you take the greater bonus of the two).
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 16:54:56
Regarding the aforementioned idea of a circle caster prestige class and its abilities (just figured I'd throw this idea out there while it was in my head):
Also as a nod to their origins in learning the circle magic, there might be certain class abilities only choosable by those with a given feat (i.e. halruaan adept, tattoo focus, or Ethran). I'm thinking things like auto DC improvement of fire magic for red wizards, etc... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 16:43:45
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Personally, I let everything stack, rules be damned. I've never run into a problem.
You just have to remember to apply the same rules to the bad guys. 
If you only let your players do it, then yeah, the whole thing falls apart.
You never had my players. I had a mystic theurge/Halruaan Adept player (a redesigned cleric when swapping from 3.0 to 3.5) who had taken the persistent spell feat, feat to reduce the cost of persistent spells from dragon mag, and he had a class ability to reduce the cost of persistent spells, plus he had me work out the cost of creating a rod of persistent spells and carried a lesser and normal version. If he'd been allowed to stack bonuses, he'd have been near unstoppable. Granted, once PGtF came out and persistent spell increased spell levels by 6 and not 4, his build wasn't as optimal.
You know, this reminds me, one of the things we had discussed at one point was a feat by which a "circle caster" could add one of his known metamagic feats to the list of feats they could enhance a spell with using a circle. I was hesitant to do so at the time (I'm less so now), but it occurs to me that this would make for a nice 3 or 5 level prestige class. It would thus be open to wychlaran, red wizards, and Halruaan Adepts who want to focus on their circle magic more. You could then cram in some basic enhancements that aren't represented under current circle magic that were always hinted at. The first of which might be simply becoming a circle leader a little sooner (for instance, putting a requirement of 4th lvl caster and the use of circle magic would put the ability to become a circle leader 2 levels sooner if this was the first class level ability... and for those that advanced far in their original class essentially get no enhancement). You could then throw in the ability to use other metamagic feats with the circle and possibly some battlefield enhancement uses of a circle (do kind of like archmage and give a pool of 8 or so different types of improvements and let the character choose which they want at each level).
Some possible options I can see for this:
add known metamagic feat to list of feats usable with circle
reduce cost of metamagic feat enhancement added with circle
automatic save DC improvement of +1 for spells enhanced with circle
enhancement of spells dealing with certain energy types enhanced with circle (fire, cold, lightning, acid... but not force, sonic, etc...).
Also, some feat ideas I'd posted in the past would work as class abilities, for instance:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5526
The chief of those I could see is quick circle formation, where you could form a circle in a round. Battle circle also would fit the class well.
Gotta go back to work, but would be interested if anyone else can think of some other abilities.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 14:15:38
Personally, I let everything stack, rules be damned. I've never run into a problem.
You just have to remember to apply the same rules to the bad guys.
If you only let your players do it, then yeah, the whole thing falls apart. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 14:03:47
3 easy rules for stacking...
Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses stack.
Nothing else stacks unless the entry says so.
If it doesn't stack you take the best bonus. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 08:58:52
Stacking was such a major headache for 3.0 and 3.5.
I decided for my games that the sources were spells/powers, feats, class, race, magic items, and i think thats it.
So you can have a bonus to Fortitude from a spell, a feat, your class, a magic item, and your race. You cant have 2 spells grant a bonus to Fortitude, or 2 magic items.
Makes it a whole lot easier to keep track of, but unfortunately it requires a lot of rewriting. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 02:28:07
For the most part the stacking rules in 3.5 are the same in 3.0...but I can double check when I get home. |
|
|
