| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 12:42:13
Okay, i am going through Giantcraft with a critical eye looking for any bits of lore i can find.
Now looking at the story Lanaxis was cursed to remain in Othea's shadow or lose his immortality.
I am sure i have read on these boards that the twilight spirit in hartsvale turned out to be Lanaxis (which makes sense him appearing as a massive giant and all that).
So if Lanaxis is still alive after all this time he must still be immortal, ergo he must still be in Othea's shadow.
Furthermore Hart himself clawed his way out of Othea's lifeless womb and seemed to already be in Hartsvale (although it wasnt called that at the time i'm sure).
So where is Othea's body.
Now i realise she was depicted as a massive mountain, but there is no singular mountain in Hartsvale (at least going by the map in the giantcraft book).
Now the history states she was poisoned by Lanaxis and that turned her slopes cragged and brittle. Taking this description to the extremes why couldnt Othea have split into many many crags and formed say the West Ice Spires (it shows as a nice rounded group of mountains on the maps) according to the description in the book these mountains are very rugged and craggy with sharp peaks etc so it kind of fits.
The other locations in the giantcraft book are confusing. I am struggling to place the Three sisters as it states they are the home of the Fire Giants and that they are in the west, but the fire giants are in the south east.
If the 3 sisters are indeed in the west (near that dale full of hill giants and the dour fissure). Then that helps me with another of my theories.
What happened to Othea. In the history it states she was poisoned, her skin became cragged and brittle, and when Hart clawed his way free her womb was lifeless. However it doesnt state explicitly that she died.
She may well be alive because it states Lanaxis poisoned all his brothers, and i believe they survive as giant gods.
So what if Othea is a primordial - not a demi goddess, but someone with the power of a god that was tied to Toril itself and not the outer planes. Lanaxis poisoned her, and that rendered her weak and more importantly sterile (accounting for the lifeless womb) and caused her to lapse into unconsciousness for millenia.
The three sisters are said to reach straight to the core of Toril which could be some indication of a power link between Othea and Toril itself. More importantly the volcanoes are still active which shows she might still be alive.
The dour fissure itself - a great rent in the earth - could be where Hart clawed his way out of Othea's lifeless womb.
The geography seems to fit the hypothesis.
Now onto Lanaxis. I havent read any of the novels and really have no intention of following their events. But i like the idea of Lanaxis the eldest titan (and therefore a being of godly or primordial power himself) being still alive and manipulating the beings in Hartsvale, but to what purpose.
We know that Ostoria was in this region and Hartsvale was the location where the last remnants of Ostoria remained, so prior to the war of the Hart these giants must have been very impressive with oodles of rune magic and artifacts at their disposal.
What were the giants doing in Hartsvale - probably just trying to survive.
Why is Lanaxis in Hartsvale other than to stay alive forever - i believe he is trying to make the prophecy come true in some perverted fashion so that he can restore Ostoria, and most importantly bring his children - the titans - and Annam back to Toril.
Othea if she is still alive, must hate Lanaxis and all the Titans and Annam most of all, but she made a pact with a greater god, and that cannot be broken without dire consequences. If her slumbering form resides in the vale as the western ice mountains - and the three sisters peaks - then she actually controls the human and giant populations in the vale by determining the amount of food they can produce. It says in the sourcebook that the dale beneath the three sisters gives an indication of the harvest that year.
So if Lanaxis can get a child of Hart's blood to call out to Annam then he can return. If Lanaxis can forge a kingdom to rival Ostoria then the Titan's might return. And Othea can't do anything about it. And finally Lanaxis might be able to leave Hartsvale.
Lastly what of the Ettin progenitor Julian/Arno. if Lanaxis still dwells in Othea's shadow then he was likewise cursed and must be also in the area.
Anyway, thoughts, counter theories, corrections? |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 14:31:16
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Hmmm, i like quite a few of those ideas (except for no women - Gerti is a pivotal enemy in the savage frontier).
See my above post - Gerti is actually a hag who has decided to remain in her larger size.
Humans (and most others) will not realize there are no female giants - they will just assume females are VERY rare (another thing giants have in common with dwarves, BTW). Hags are still 'people', and therefor all individuals, so occasionally you will get one that decides to reside with a giant tribe and remain in her giantish form. She will usually become the tribes shaman/magic-user, because of her natural magical abilities, but not always. Every Hag is a bit different, and some of them have rather odd 'agendas' (Baba Yaga being one of the most notorious and inscrutable).
Gerti is still young-enough to have her good looks intact (so she is NOT maintaining a spell). In fact, she is rather unique in her looks not having faded yet (but it WILL eventually happen... which would be an interesting plot-point for her). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 14:24:45
Giants are nearly immortal, much like the elves. When they get around 1000 years old, they begin to 'loose touch' with the world around them, and enter a contemplative state. In most cases, they remain immobile for years, until at last their spirit is released from their mortal shell (they die), and their body becomes a new terrain feature. In primordial times giants preferred to live much longer, so their bodies were immense compared to giants today (titans and larger) - this is where some mountains come from. Thus, the giants of today rarely make an impact on the geography around them, because they no longer grow to these titanic proportions.
Growth: Giants grow rapidly at first, much faster then humans, in fact. They are born about twice the size of a human baby, but by the time they are 5 they are already the size of full-grown (human) man. It is around this time that they choose which 'path' to follow (normally dictated by the tribe), and their intelligence increases dramatically. Within a few days of their metamorphosis, they appear to be young adult versions of their tribe. Giants continue to grow, but at a slowed pace. For the next 5-7 years they grow at a rate which would put them around the average for their (giant) type, which varies from tribe to tribe. Then their growth slows, and they grow at a near-human rate, so something like an inch a year, or there-abouts. Thus, a hundred foot tall giant is possible, but extremely rare (and would probably remain inactive for very long stretches of time, similar to how a dragon sleeps/hibernates). This part, BTW, is somewhat 'borrowed' from the Runequest game - I've merged Glorantha's giants with D&Ds.
There are NO female giants(?!): There are hags, plain and simple. Hags ARE giants, but it seems most people - except for a few scholarly sages - are unaware of this. They prefer NOT to live with their brutish males, and do not raise male children (with few exceptions). They tend to congregate in their own groups, and favor groups of three. They can change their size at will - this is why their is so much confusion about them. They will usually stay at size 'large' (tending toward the lower end of the spectrum, around 7') - this facilitates them quickly attaining either human norms or giantish norms. A hag can change her size one category per day naturally, up to huge, and down to small, if they so desire. More flexibility - both in size and how often they can change - can easily be facilitated by magic (all hags are innately magical). Very rarely will will they take a shape smaller then an average human female, but they will if mating is desired.
And that's why they do it - they can mate with nearly anything! Hags are responsible for quite a few of the worlds oddities - hybrid-type creatures that aren't aberrations. Hags are very beautiful when at young age, and are usually mistaken for human (or fey) witches, but they do not age well. Like giants, they grow quickly, so a female that is only 5 years old will appear to be a girl of 15 or 16 (and have intelligence - if not maturity - to match), and be ready to 'breed' (which is in their nature - young hags can be considered 'in heat' nearly all of the time). As they get older, their looks quickly fade, and they get both uglier and desire mating less often (although when the mood strikes them, they will use their magic to appear young and beautiful once again).
Females are ALWAYS Hags, and breed true (thus even the result of a mating with a halfling will not be smaller then a normal hag). Males born of male giants will always be of the same type as their father, and given over to the father's tribe for rearing. Males born of other races will be raised for a short time by their hag mothers, and they grow at the same rate as other male giants. Thus, the mothers usually 'kick them out' at around Five (when a giant child would normally choose its elemental path). These children are normally misshapen versions of whatever race their father was, and the most common known are human/hag cross-breeds (The Hagspawn).
In very rare cases, the mother will keep these children around - either nearby, or (even more rarely) in her lair with her. This was the case with Grendel.
This is why one does not succumb to a beautiful, half-naked, amorous female one finds in the forest (amongst MANY other reasons); fortunately, the hag usually becomes impregnated, and enters a bit of a comatose state for a few hours after coitus. The human 'victim' awakes to find himself in the arms of an old, ugly crone! If she does not become impregnated... thats a BIG problem. She is very angry, and wide-awake... and like many other giants, has no compunction against eating other sentient creatures. In fact, in the very rare case where the male sticks around even when she gets with child (for whatever reason), she will eat him anyway, and then torture her child with tales about how delicious his father was (which is just one reason why Hagspawn are always psychotic).
Hags are very fertile, and almost always become pregnant from other giants. Either way, they tend to avoid eating other giants, not because of any sort of taboo against cannibalism, but rather, its just 'bad form', and other males will avoid the hag (and the rest of her covey) from then-on. The rare 'lone Hag', however, is an exception regardless, and is obviously anti-social to begin with, so in that case just about anything goes.
And thats the giant-lore that goes with my purely homebrew world... which I hope to have published some day.  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 14:20:15
Hmmm, i like quite a few of those ideas (except for no women - Gerti is a pivotal enemy in the savage frontier).
I too had assumed giants lived for thousands of years unless something else (disease, starvation, a sword) killed them off first.
I like the idea of continual growth and being full of life, it ties in nicely with Othea and the primordial thing.
Being able to switch type is an interesting concept, i personally would make it less about choice and more about environment. So the giants are born of the planet and strongly linked to it, depending on what conditions they live in depends on their type. So a giant living in arctic conditions would over time become a Frost Giant. The absorb the environment so to speak (maybe its something to do with what rocks they eat)
That way it explains why giant enclaves have children that match their types running around (which they must do if i am to keep females and Gerti), but should those giants move to a volcanic area (probably by force or environmental disaster) then they will gradually over time become fire giants, or maybe just birth fire giant children.
Either way its a good idea and i'm stealing it, kinda makes the giants unique and gives them more depth. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 13:34:21
MY giant-lore (as in, nearly completely homebrew) goes something like this:
There are NO 'subraces' of giants - thats just a myth. What we have is tribes that follow specific paths. By 'paths', I mean they have made certain choices, which are interpreted into game rules by templates. What that means is that a Frost Giant Clan CAN produce a Fire Giant (and vice-versa), but it would be unheard of (in other words, that would be a PC or 'DM special'). In these tribes, the children are taught very early on about the 'correct' path to follow, and they really don't learn anything else. On some D&D worlds there may be a giant civilization that has 'stayed true' to its origins, and anyone can become whatever they want, but on most worlds they have fractured into these elemental tribes.
Dragons, of course, have done the same thing, but in the case of dragons, there is no longer a choice - they now say true to whatever path they were born into (they HAVE become true subraces). This has almost nothing to do with this topic, however - I just wanted to point-out that in nearly all cases, giants believe this to be true of themselves as well (on D&D worlds - NOT in my homebrew setting).
Three important changes I made to giants: 1) They have no females(?!), 2) They keep growing, and 3) They are nearly immortal (very much like elves).
Giants are born into a tribe and grow rather quickly - they are literally bursting with 'Mana' (life). This stems from the fact that they are the grandchildren of Imaar (Ymir) and Gaea, and represent both the physical world and its power. In just a few years a giant child is larger then a human, and it is then that they must choose their path (get a template). In some cases, some tribes have completely forgotten about their paths - these are the Hill Giants. Vicious, child-like brutes who will never achieve their maturity (thus, Hill Giants are the "un-formed", they remain in this pupal state, unless something 'awakens' within them). When hill Giants live long enough, they eventually become Mountain Giants, but it is rare that they live that long, because they are not very intelligent, and the larger they get, the harder it becomes for them to keep their presence unknown (so things like humans, dragons, etc, kill them off). When a giant excepts its destiny (chooses his path), the transformation is immediate, and they become an adolescent of their tribe (sub-race in D&D terms). Even their appearance changes.
The choices are nearly limitless, but are usually along the lines of elements or energies (including 'Eldritch', which pertains to magic). Also, some paths have themselves further sub-divided into sub-paths, which is how we get both Cloud - who embraced the 'all knowing' aspect of being 'on high') - and Storm Giants, who embraced the power of the sky itself (making them something of a cross between cloud Giants and some sort of water-giant). In fact, many giant-types are now a mix of different elements and energies (hybrids), with just a few remaining true to their core beliefs. This is because giants are truly the 'children of the earth' - they draw their power from the world, and are shaped by the forces around them.
I will address the three major changes I made (mentioned above) in my next post. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 20:47:53
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Where did her being lawful come in though (wondering if you found something else that I didn't see, OR if maybe you're reading the tree differently). To me, it looks like Annam was born of "law" and "chaos" (how that happened... good question).
Yeah, i read the "graph" as implying that the goddess was lawful but now that i think of it i don't think the "law" header was supposed to extend to the whole column, that would mean all the giant gods are lawful and that clearly isn't the case.
So uhm, yeah Annam was born from the union of law and chaos ... probably he was (is?) far more primal and ancient than most beings (gods and primordials alike).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, the spirit bound idea was that the unapproachable east was being filled with "ghostly" spirit beings. Some are telthors (fey incorporeal beings that aren't undead), but some may be basically Toril bound "ghosts". My thoughts were that "children" races born of two primordial wouldn't NECESSARILY go to the outer planes when they died in the early times, because they had no god to go to.
Alright, makes perfect sense. And the elven connections to the feys explains their weird relations with death/undeath and Arvandor coexisting with parts of the Realms. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 19:48:14
Ooh, I like that. They were around before the human idea of death and the afterlife came into being.
After all the outer planes and the whole after life thing is created from belief.
These guys didn't believe in an afterlife and there probably weren't many races around that did, so the spirits just hang around, gradually fading away into the ground (in much the same way that souls are eventually absorbed into the plane they are petitioners in), kind of like a great big material plane soul recycler.
That is awesome, and definitely going into my really really ancient unapproachable east history.
So anyway, back on topic.
I think we really should try and figure out a way to fix the giant lore as best we can. Concentrating on FR lore first and incorporating the core lore if the FR stuff doesn't work.
So first we have the Dawn Titans that may or may not be giants (it doesn't say what they are just that the Batrachi emperor was killed by one). It doesn't even say whether there were more than one of these titans or that there was a war (ignoring the 4th edition stuff because that ignored other lore first).
Then we have Annam and this sky goddess. Does anyone have a reference for this dalliance so I can look up dates and what children were made. Annam and the goddess were both deities so it makes sense that the children would be deities (although maybe only demigods at the start).
Then it is Annam and Othea, that produced the primordial children that resembled giants that must have then gone on to create their own children (it doesn't mention that Othea spawned hundreds of giants, just that she had a child and gives its name - then magically the giants appear, ergo the child of Annam and othea created the giant race that resembled him).
As for vaprak and ogres, or ulutiu and the voadkyn etc. The reason Annam chose Othea is probably because she gave birth to these massive humanoid type creatures and he wanted a superior race of material plane beings to worship him that would never be beaten by the smaller races.
And one final thought about defining the various super powered beings.
Primordials - Single body, can die, very powerful, material or faerie plane bound.
Cosmic Entity - A planar ideal that is invested in a creature. So the creature can die but the ideal is then placed in someone else (for instance demogorgon is the latest ideal of the abyss). These guys are supremely powerful on their home plane(s). Have one single body but can create aspects of themselves (weaker versions).
The Abyss, Baator, and The Seven Heavens all have more than one cosmic entity (one for each level they rule) but there is an overall ruler like demogorgon, asmodeus, and whoever rules the heavens.
Deities - A divinely morphic idea moulded by the worship of material plane beings. Cannot die through conventional means except through lack of worship. No physical body. Can create a number of avatars on the material plane depending on how many worshippers they have.
So powerful fey beings are more like primordials to me. They exist in a single body and can indeed die. The ruler of the plane of Faerie if there is one would be a cosmic entity but there would be only one.
I figure Corellon and Gruumsh would have been fey primordial at one point. That's how we have this story about gruumsh and Corellon fighting, I reckon that's also how we have the story about Araushnee and the assault on the Seldarine. These were all physical beings that existed as more than an idea, that could be injured and poisoned and killed (deities cannot - usually). Araushnee was probably some evil demon trafficking evil fey creature that beguiled Corellon and tried to kill him. Of course following that idea means that Malar was a primordial as well (from Faerie no less).
And now back to the giants. If anyone has the names of the books with the various giant deity lore in then I can go and have a look and try and work things out.
Oh and Markus, any ideas are always grand, I have borrowed many of your ideas in the past so by all means spill your guts.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 19:21:25
Oh, and on that idea. We know that Kezef eats spirits and sheds acid. From this acid, elemental ooze creatures and "demons" spawn. Therefore, at least in some cases, Kezef may have been spawning SOME of the first fiends. I'm extremely hesitant to say he spawned the first tanar'ri (in fact, I won't say that), but perhaps he did spawn some of the first demon and daemon lords (or whatever other fiendish beings people might want to suppose about), as well as possibly things like some kinds of demon hounds, etc... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 19:16:27
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It seems Annam birthed most of the giant gods upon other being(s) than Othea (Stronmaus, Hiatea, Grolantor, Memnor, Skoraeus Stonebones, and Iallanis). They apparently came from some pairing of Annam and an "unnamed sky goddess" according to the entry on Grolantor in Giantcraft (though it is ambiguous, and perhaps only SOME of them came from Annam and the Sky Goddess).
Actually on page 42 the picture clearly shows that those 6 were sons of Annam and this lawful unnamed sky goddess.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
A good question then becomes, a race that's created by 2 NON-divine beings (say Othea and Ulutiu).... are their souls bound to Toril and won't go to the outer planes? Do they become the spirit people that we were discussing in the other thread upon death? If so, then that opens up the verbeeg, firbolgs, voadkyn, and fomorians to being "spirit bound to Toril" types.
Uhm, what do you mean with "spirit bound"? Do you mean they can't leave after death? On page 49 it says that the voadkyn worship Hiatea and i guess she would do anything in her power to ensure her faithful's souls got "home".
Not all giant deities seem to be related to Annam, as you pointed out with Thrym and Surtr and then we have more: Thrym's brother Grjotgard (a demigod imprisoned in the demon prince Kostchtchie's layer in the Abyss), the giant god Karantor that is involved in some plot with the verbeegs (Giantcraft page 35) and Vaprak (hey! ogres are giants too).
very good catch on the page 42 thing. Ok, so they all came from some unnamed sky goddess. Where did her being lawful come in though (wondering if you found something else that I didn't see, OR if maybe you're reading the tree differently). To me, it looks like Annam was born of "law" and "chaos" (how that happened... good question).
Yeah, the spirit bound idea was that the unapproachable east was being filled with "ghostly" spirit beings. Some are telthors (fey incorporeal beings that aren't undead), but some may be basically Toril bound "ghosts". My thoughts were that "children" races born of two primordial wouldn't NECESSARILY go to the outer planes when they died in the early times, because they had no god to go to. Thus, beings like Chupoclops and Kezef fed on these "Toril-bound spirits". Some of these spirits MAY have also been "reborn" as a new form of creature by bonding somehow with nature (for instance, a stone giant spirit becoming some kind of stone monster). I'm more or less spitwadding ideas here that go against the grain of what has developed since then with primordial around less and gods having taken over. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 18:06:29
Depending upon the edition, Ogres have been goblinoids, giants, and their own unique species. If we count other D&D worlds, things really get screwed-up.
This is why I say Ogre is a descriptive term, and can be applied to numerous different creatures - its just a generic fantasy term for some sort of large, lumbering brute. FR's Ogres are a specific race, and possibly not related to ogres on any other world (in fact, if you go by the canon, they are not). Hagspawn would be yet-another type of Ogre.
FR's giant lore is one of the few things (FR) that I ignore almost completely; I take bits and drabs of it, mix it back together differently, and use it that way. The lack of cohesion (with most of it) makes it really just not worth fixing, IMHO. The redundancy in the giant gods really irks me (so did TD just not bother reading other sources, or he just wanted to make-up his own pantheon, despite D&D already having one?)
I have to go out now, if anyone is interested in hearing my (totally HB) version of giantlore, let me know. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 17:51:04
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It seems Annam birthed most of the giant gods upon other being(s) than Othea (Stronmaus, Hiatea, Grolantor, Memnor, Skoraeus Stonebones, and Iallanis). They apparently came from some pairing of Annam and an "unnamed sky goddess" according to the entry on Grolantor in Giantcraft (though it is ambiguous, and perhaps only SOME of them came from Annam and the Sky Goddess).
Actually on page 42 the picture clearly shows that those 6 were sons of Annam and this lawful unnamed sky goddess.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
A good question then becomes, a race that's created by 2 NON-divine beings (say Othea and Ulutiu).... are their souls bound to Toril and won't go to the outer planes? Do they become the spirit people that we were discussing in the other thread upon death? If so, then that opens up the verbeeg, firbolgs, voadkyn, and fomorians to being "spirit bound to Toril" types.
Uhm, what do you mean with "spirit bound"? Do you mean they can't leave after death? On page 49 it says that the voadkyn worship Hiatea and i guess she would do anything in her power to ensure her faithful's souls got "home".
Not all giant deities seem to be related to Annam, as you pointed out with Thrym and Surtr and then we have more: Thrym's brother Grjotgard (a demigod imprisoned in the demon prince Kostchtchie's layer in the Abyss), the giant god Karantor that is involved in some plot with the verbeegs (Giantcraft page 35) and Vaprak (hey! ogres are giants too). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 17:33:11
I didnt know about the other giant gods being born of another goddess (and not a primordial so thats fine with me).
Maybe Annam experimented (pardon the phrase) a bit with trying to produce his giant children. The first may have been the Dawn Titans that were mentioned existing before the titans actually existed (although i prefer to think that Dawn Titan is just another name for powerful primordial that has existed since the dawn of time). Then he tried again and created the giant gods. Then finally he had another go and produced his giant children (some of whom later ascended to godhood) that were primordial and had children of their own to produce a whole race.
I think producing a creature from a primordial is merely one way rather than the only way. However it does seem that to make something tied to the world in some way does require a primordial also tied to that world. Otherwise you have to create your race elsewhere and move it to the prime material world you want.
Now those fey we mentioned in the east i think came from Faerie as interlopers. I think an awful lot of creatures on Toril came from Faerie, it has certainly been hinted at that the two places had very close links in the past and many races have migrated from it.
As for spirits. Well im stumped on that but it looks like Toril's planar barriers were very weak in the early years and it had leakage onto it from all kinds of planes. Although there is nothing to say that a spirit creature had to come from somewhere else. They might just have totally weird biolody that allows them to exist as what we would call spirits but in reality they are just another race of creatures that are born have children and die.
But i havent really thought much about that. It just strikes me that material plane beings are fundamentally different to outer plane and even inner plane beings, and yet they have to have been created somewhere from something. The gods can create beings (as we have outsiders), but they are not the same as material plane beings and so whatever created them should be tied to the material plane.
That doesnt tie the creatures themselves to the plane, they can move to the outer or inner planes and become extraplanar beings over time (azer, and those slaad resembling creatures that were batrachi).
So all things on Toril should really be from either Toril or from Faerie (which is probably a different version of the material plane that went wrong).
I think im explaining this really bad so i will stop now. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 16:49:03
This is kind of funny, I hadn't seen this thread and was about to start one called "Othea's mountain" to try to place it because of our discussions in Narathmault.
I totally agree with the idea that Ulutiu and Othea should be primordials based upon newer lore. Another thing to note is that the mortal giants that birthed the giant races are NOT the ones that went on to become gods. Therefore, the children that eventually birthed the giant races just might have been primordials as well as you speculate. Its also hinted that Lanaxis poisoning Othea somehow killed his brothers and sisters as well.
It seems Annam birthed most of the giant gods upon other being(s) than Othea (Stronmaus, Hiatea, Grolantor, Memnor, Skoraeus Stonebones, and Iallanis). They apparently came from some pairing of Annam and an "unnamed sky goddess" according to the entry on Grolantor in Giantcraft (though it is ambiguous, and perhaps only SOME of them came from Annam and the Sky Goddess). Meanwhile, it seems that Surtr and Thrym thereby are left out of being Annam's brood as a result. I could definitely see Surtr and Thrym as some kind of fire and ice Archfey or primordials that developed godhood later.
I must admit, I only read the first of the giant series... because as others have indicated... it didn't feel like the realms. However, twilight vale is supposed to be separate from the rest of the world, so that could be why. What I read in giantcraft seems to indicate that the original titan son, Lanaxis, maybe went on to become the twilight spirit, which some do worship (doesn't necessarily make him a god). It also seems to indicate that maybe at the end this Lanaxis/the twilight spirit would be gone? Is this the case?
The idea that all races are born of primordials, I'd have to argue against though. There's immigrants, which is probably the largest faction. However, if you're looking to create a group of people from which you can harvest souls as a deity.... creating a race specific to the world via primordial mating might be a fast track. A good question then becomes, a race that's created by 2 NON-divine beings (say Othea and Ulutiu).... are their souls bound to Toril and won't go to the outer planes? Do they become the spirit people that we were discussing in the other thread upon death? If so, then that opens up the verbeeg, firbolgs, voadkyn, and fomorians to being "spirit bound to Toril" types <noting, there MAY be another type of fomorian as well, since they became so prevalent in the feywild underdark... and those fomorians seem somewhat intelligent).
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| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Oct 2013 : 09:26:58
These are the maps from the novels.
Note that on the first one, North is NOT at the top (I REALLY hate when they do that). 'Othea's Tor' is a two-peak mountain, and when the sunrises (or sets - I forget which), the sun comes through the split peaks and illuminates Twilight Vale (which doesn't happen very often, IIRC).
Both Lanaxis and the Ettin were alive up until the novel series. Lanaxis was not allowed to leave "his mother's shadow" (which was twilight Vale).
The giants were not happy under 'human rule'. In fact, the giants lived on the periphery, and although they interacted with the humans (some, anyway), they sure didn't act like they were ruled by anyone but their own chiefs. The sourcebook and the novels didn't dove-tail all that well, and neither shoe-horned into the Realms very well, IMO.
The FR 'patrons' of the giant races were redundant with D&D's existing giant gods, so I just didn't get the whole thing. According to canon (GHotR), Titans were around before they were created. go figure that one out.
FR's giant-lore starts to fall-apart quickly when you start examining it - its not cohesive at all. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Oct 2013 : 21:36:08
Well lets not start a rant about the faults of canon. If it isn't up to scratch then it's up to us to rewrite it.
Given what I think I understand about primordial - a super powerful being tied to the material plain and a single body/manifestation/avatar (whatever you want to call it), it makes sense for both Othea and Ulutiu to be primordials, they certainly don't have any followers (or didn't at that time), they are awesomely powerful, and Othea at least has a single physical presence (or had if she is indeed dead).
Now this poses an interesting theory about creation of the races. Why did Annam choose Othea to mate with to create a new race. If he had chosen an existing race (such as a human) then it would have produced some kind of deity infused human which probably wasn't what he had in mind. If he is a god why can he not just create a new race on his own - probably because he belongs in the outer planes and anything he creates by himself would be an outsider not native to Toril.
So by mating with a primordial - a material plane bound super being linked to the planet Toril itself - he created an entirely new race out of the energy of the planet Toril (using Othea as a conduit).
Does this mean that all races created on Toril are born of primordials (they have to come from somewhere). Maybe the progenitors of each race had a primordial paragon as the first, a sort of super representative of that race which then created the lesser beings in it's image.
As a further supposition, maybe Toril itself creates these primordials to seed itself with life. We know Toril has (or had if you like that particular piece of canon) a mystical weave of magic that is supposedly semi sentient in its own right (I cant remember where I read that but i'm positive I didn't make it up). What if Toril itself is sentient on some level and created all these primordials to be her children.
Now i'm taking another leap here. The children of Annam were super beings - think elder titans, possibly primordial type beings themselves - they want to create their own children and so by using the elements of Toril they create the first giants.
Just a handful of each so that you have a family group. Then suppose that these children of Annam mate with these newly created giants (they technically aren't related), and you have the beginnings of giant royalty that each rule over the successor states of Ostoria after the children of Annam ascend to godhood.
What if these giant royalty represent the remnants left in Hartsvale. After all Hart himself fought a storm giant paramount (whatever that is). It makes sense for those giants closest to Annam's bloodline dwell in the last remnants of the kingdom he created.
Anyways, that's just a few more outlandish ideas that come to me from reading Giantcraft. Not a great book for the realms but an excellent book for ideas. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Oct 2013 : 20:54:15
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well Dalor if I get a thumbs up from you then I think I might b on the right track
It really sounds solid...I know it might be "different" than Canon...but then so is most of my own world! lol |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Oct 2013 : 08:18:06
Well Dalor if I get a thumbs up from you then I think I might b on the right track |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Oct 2013 : 03:48:10
I like your take Dazzlerdal...and in fact consider it stolen. (I didn't read the novel either) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 16:01:59
Well like i said, i dont do the novels, i'd rather do my own version, so it is at least connected to the realms and realism in some way |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 15:48:24
The entire storyline was covered (and concluded) in Troy Denning's Twilight Giants trilogy.
A decent read... even if it doesn't feel like it as anything to do with FR at all. |
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