| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Demzer |
Posted - 05 Sep 2013 : 15:19:34
Ilighon is an arcane magic proof (the island and 1 mile more in all directions) base protected by reefs, rocks and beefed up air and water elementals with major temples of Silvanus, Mielikki and Eldath and full of fundamentalists druids guided by three Archdruids that are Chosens of all the three deities ...
Now, if they just sat there doing druid things and nurturing some sort of Garden of Eden everything would be well and good but the druids of the Enclave do whatever pleases them in all the Vilhon Reach threatening, killing, maiming and destroying anyone and anything they want.
I have nothing against druids, powerful or not, every glade and forest in my campaign has one or a circle and they are very active but placing in the middle of the map a very active intransigent organization led by three Chosens (each of three deities) with a well-nigh impregnable power base is ... well let's just say it puzzles me.
So, how do you handle the Emerald Enclave and Ilighon in your campaigns? Or how would you? |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 06:45:18
(I'll comment on the last post and as an aside, I should point that the 2e Vilhon Reach is actually post-ToT. Also, the following comments are musings for my campaign, and are not canon, only based on it)
The Canal is very important to my campaign, so I've given a lot of thought to how the Emerald Enclave treats it. As thenightgaunt said, its initial impact is negligible, but its potential impact is huge. So I tried to base their reaction off the canon information I have and some characterizations I made myself. What I got to is this:
They basically won't care if trade comes to the region and human activity increases, as long as they are still able to control their very particular interests. Like most such organizations in the Realms, their timetables are measured in centuries. The Canal is a bit of a turning point for them, however. They could stop it, but if they did, they'd have every nation, company and individual who gives a damn about trade against them for good. From Waterdeep to Thay, to Tashalar and Durpar, and even freaking Zakhara and Kara-Tur, you'd have powerful people fuming out of their noses. The nations of the Vilhon would outlaw them, pretty much everyone in Faerûn would agree with those nations, there would be conflict, and the druids would lose. Ilighôn might be impregnable, but they can't do much to protect nature if they can't actually leave the island. At some point, 50 million humans kill a couple thousand pesky druids.
Now, I don't have my druids be stupid. They haven't figured this out just now, in fact they were pretty much the only reason the Canal wasn't built yet - they manipulated the local nations into not doing it every time such an idea was brought, for one or two centuries (the Realms economy wasn't really that developed until fairly recently, if you look at some dates). They're still doing their best to stay in power, minimise the side-effects and prevent any single group to grow so powerful it could single them out and undo their work. They knew the Canal would eventually happen, though, and as befits their fatalistic outlook they're now watching the silly civilised humans going up and down on their little boats, while the civilised humans think mostly the same of them with their trees, ponds and grasses. Who's ultimately right? I don't know yet. According to WotC, neither. A magical planet smashed into the place and killed most everyone and warped the rest unrecognizably. So there. |
| thenightgaunt |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 22:46:39
quote:
The Lake of Steam region is far away from the concerns of the Enclave. Either i have completely misunderstood the Emerald Enclave writeups or they're completely focused on Turmish, Chondath and the Vilhon Reach proper with interest in aiding the druids of Gulthmere Forest and the elves of the Chondal Wood.
I wanted to throw my $0.02 in on this one. Druids in D&D and FR in particular have always been an interestingly conflicted sort. The key focus for druids is Balance. But balance is unchanging, or slow enough to not matter. Why harvest that forest? The lumber's needed to rebuild a city, fuel the furnaces of industry, etc... This isn't the case for elves, but elves are essentially alien (in mindset, beliefs, lifespan, etc...). But for humans, the drive is to make your life better, to expand, create and prosper. And I see druids as being stuck in the middle of a paradox. Human nature is to expand, but this always hurts nature and upsets the balance. Now you can have more modern "civilized" druids (Chaunteans) that try to make sure that the impact of humanity is lessened, with the land cared for, forests replanted for lumber later on, etc. But it seems like most druids fall on the side of anti-expansion (elves as well). It's worth pointing out that the Emerald Enclave aren't Chaunteans but rather followers of less civilization friendly nature gods.
With this in mind. I see the Emerald Enclave as a very conflicted and anti-expansion oriented group, which puts them at odds most of the human settlements in their region. To the peasants, they are priests, guardians, and a sign of the power of their gods. To the nobles, merchants and leaders of the human settlements in the Vilhon Reach they are likely a menace and little more than ecoterrorists. One of their core tenets is to "control human expansion" (per the WotC sneak peak article). They aren't anti-expansion or progress, but they want it to be controlled and careful.
So why do I think they're a conflicted group? Because of the Canal. A canal between the Lake of Steam and the Sea of Fallen Stars would still be on the edge of the Vilhon Reach, but it's economic impact would be immense. Goods and wealth would flow into the region due to trade and the control of the canal. The settlements would expand as wealth flowed in. While lumber could be brought in from elsewhere by barge, food would still need to be grown nearby. The need for farmland would grow and humans would encroach on nature more and more. And with this growing wealth would come war. The bickering city states would be drawn to a fight over control of the region and nature would again suffer. But the absence of the Emerald Enclave from the Canal project might be a sign that they either didn't realize what was going on, or that they were so out of touch that they didn't realize the implications of the new waterway. Not something I'd expect from an well organized and united group.
I'd use them as quasi-antagonists for any adventures. A somewhat erratic organization that has immense power but bounces from hippy to ecoterrorist depending on the situation and the individual druids involved. An organization that sees itself as everyone's nanny, but without the manpower, discipline, or cunning required to really achieve that end. An interesting foil to the elvish Eldreth Veluuthra who are there to serve as true antagonists.
Edit: As for their powers. It's worth noting that all of their great works of magic and defense occurred prior to the Time of Troubles. Who knows how that event shook up the Emerald Enclave or the magical defenses of Ilighon.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 19:02:04
LOL Demzer. 
I have nothing against Druids, but elves take the 'tree hugging way to far.. now THEY are ecoterrorits. I would do the dance of joy if they were all gone in 5e (and I know that will never happen, but I can dream, can't I?)
Swords of the Iron Legion:
I grew-up in the 60's (and 70's), and every time I see that illustration I think 'soul train' (and hear that smooth talking announcer say "Sooooooouuul traaaainnnn". |
| Demzer |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 18:17:52
Oh, come on!
You don't like mystic negative energy railways of doom that carry evil souls of dead soldiers to empower an egyptian named daemon that wants to unleash hell on earth?!?!*
Back on topic:
Mapolq, thanks a lot for your corrections and pointers, you make good, valid points.
I still think i'll do something about the Emerald Enclave in my campaign, but not as heavy handed as i initially thought.
So everyone that chimed in may be proud, you saved druids lives.
*This is intended in sarcastic tone (in case anyone is too tired/sleepy to notice it) |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 17:31:26
Just to address a point that was largely forgotten... yes, Ilighôn is a freakingly overpowered place. And yes, that means the Enclave has the great advantage of a safe place to retreat (which does not automatically imply they can do whatever they want outside of Ilighôn).
After all, it's not like you can assault the elves in Evermeet or Evereska, or Halaster in Undermountain either (unless you're writing a novel or sourcebook).
Disclaimer: nothing against those books and their authors in principle, I may or may not like them, but the fact is, you need author-weight (which is to say, the same thing as DM-fiat) to pull that kind of thing off. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 17:17:50
quote:
Well, Innarlith is in a whole other region (Lake of Steam) far to the south and the Enclave is a really focused and localized organization and for Hlondeth, as i said before, the impression the Enclave made to me is that they don't care if the "civilized" people slaughter each other as long as they don't disrupt the environment.
Whole another region for the sake of geographical/cultural divisions, yeah, but it's still about 250 km south of the Vilhon. Close enough to merit such a major power intervening if they thought they were doing something absolutely terrible. In any case, it will at least show how the Enclave's influence wanes when you get far (and relatively speaking, not very far) from Ilighôn.
quote:
For Innarlith, see above, i didn't know about Arrabar and Hlath, is this from novels? Sourcebooks? Where can i look for informations on these Thayan enclaves such as size and year of funding.
I took it from my campaign notes, which I, in turn, took from a sourcebook. Can't quite find it now, perhaps Lords of Darkness. In any case, it was a list of cities with enclaves, nothing descriptive about them. Still, they're there.
quote:
That's a tricky one, but i figured the Enclave stayed its hand because the plague struck humans and demihumans at war and it was a great example of the perils of war and of uncontrolled use of magic. Two things the Enclave would like to limit.
But that's just my interpretation and i'm probably wrong.
quote:
This is another tricky one. I expressed myself poorly talking generically about "large scale war" since in Faerun it seems all wars are fought in wide open battles were hordes of infantry men kill each other with at most some pillaging and burning of villages along the way.
Around the Vilhon the closest war-related behaviour that may make the Enclave unhappy is large scale naval war with all the logging it needs. And to my knowledge that didn't happen (the closest thing are big naval battles in the Bay of Chessenta but that's away from the Enclave turf). And (in my probably wrong view of the Enclave) they don't care if humans and demihumans slaughter themselves en masse or destroy their own cities.
I'd say you're wrong from a canonical point of view, but of course that doesn't need to be your decision. It's pretty well-established that druids et. al. consider humanoids as part of nature, and mass slaughter of them is just as bad (just not worse than, as most people would consider) as mass slaughter of animals and plants. The Enclave itself is said to believe in balance between human-centric way-of-life and other kinds, which is to say, they believe settlements are "natural" to a certain point, as long as balance isn't thrown out the window. Also, 992 DR - Lord Saros takes power in Turmish and turns it into a naval power. This time, unlike 300 years before, they don't attack Ilighôn. The druids apparently left them alone. Needless to say, there's hints to many naval skirmishes going on in the Vilhon between both national fleets and pirates. Sespech is canonically building up its navy right now. Nimpeth has a reasonably-sized fleet for its small size. No major battles, true, but major battles are things that happen very once in a while.
Also, war in Faerûn is definitely not about large armies clashing on open fields (you can see how few examples there are of that happening). Battles weren't a common happening in warfare on Earth until recently (sieges and pillaging were), and Faerûn is even more tilted in that direction (mostly due to magic, monsters and low manpower, probably). Notice how, apart from some products where author didn't do any research, armies are small.
quote:
Chondath and Turmish were already settled and the major cities (those that appear on the map) were al already there when the Enclave rose to power, rather, they were the reason why the Enclave was created and the druids said "no more expansion of civilization".
Not entirely true. After the Rotting War, the region was sparsely populated for centuries, until it recovered about a century or two ago. Turmish did not feel it strongly, true, but Chondath was practically wiped out. If the Enclave wished to destroy them or keep them from growing back, they could've done so.
quote:
The Lake of Steam region is far away from the concerns of the Enclave. Either i have completely misunderstood the Emerald Enclave writeups or they're completely focused on Turmish, Chondath and the Vilhon Reach proper with interest in aiding the druids of Gulthmere Forest and the elves of the Chondal Wood.
Focusing their efforts in a limited region is of utmost importance since they couldn't exert the same kind of control over larger areas.
That is unclear, but possible. However, see my above point about Innarlith being actually very close to their already established power centers. As druids, I'd expect them to give some thought to the "everything is connected" idea, and not dismiss something big because it's happening a few day's ride south, especially because they easily could intervene. Innarlith would be rather trivial to infiltrate and/or sabotage, compared to, say, Sembia or Cormyr. An organisation such as the Emerald Enclave may keep a strong power base in a given region, but they would be mind-blowingly idiotic if they weren't watching the rest of the world, what to say of their backyard. This leads me to believe they don't consider the Canal something anathema to them (in my campaign, they basically twitch their noses at it).
quote:
(Markustay) Just to throw another (large) stick onto the fire - read the entirety of Swords of the Iron Legion. Its probably THE worst FR product (and there were a few really smelly ones), but it is canon. There was an entire war in that region, with fiends riding an 'Infinity Train'.
Yeah, I deliberately avoided that one because it's such utter... ah, well. But Markus' points are valid.
Bottom lines:
My (incomplete) campaign log is in my signature, you can draw a lot of my interpretation of the Enclave from there. It's rather big, though, so I may give you some examples later - this post is already getting big.
But basically, I see the greatest charge of the Emerald Enclave since 902 DR is to prevent magical disasters. Which, incidentally that's a reason for some friction between them and their otherwise good allies, the elves of Nikerymath. Since the Enclave is overwhelmingly human (albeit that's largely because druids had to be human in earlier editions, but still) and elves, on the other hand, including the ones from Nikerymath, have a nasty history of causing magical catastrophes when it suits them. Of course the High Mages are mostly gone and the elves who stayed behind are much more druid-friendly, in general. So they are allied, but they do not entirely trust each other's motives (this is in my campaign, not canon - just to be clear).
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 14:13:53
Just to throw another (large) stick onto the fire - read the entirety of Swords of the Iron Legion. Its probably THE worst FR product (and there were a few really smelly ones), but it is canon. There was an entire war in that region, with fiends riding an 'Infinity Train'.
Yes, it is rather apparent that none of those authors ever read a single FR source - they just looked at the map and plunked stuff down - but it is still (unfortunately) canon. It also happens a bit west of the Vilhon proper (The Deepwash), but still in that area (and those Tuigan/whatever would have had to cross a lot of Emerald Enclave stomping-grounds to get there). Just the fact that fiends were trying to break-into Toril en masse should have had the druids hoping mad.
Druids care about what druids care about; there motives and actions are fairly unfathomable to normal folks.
There are also one - maybe two (my memory is failing me ATM) - other druid groups just north in the Gulthmere, and they have a completely different agenda, and would probably counter the Emerald Enclave on some points. IIRC, one is generic (and peaceful), and the others are more into cats then trees (they worship Asl... err... Nobanion, IIRC).
EDIT:
The Emerald Enclave did do some major interfering with the Whamite Isles as well, but that was another example of bad lore having some 'gravy' poured over it to hide the smell. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 13:33:57
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Yes, that is exactly right. In my campaign, in fact, they hold a similar status in the Vilhon as the Church held in Europe in the 1400s (with widely different goals, power structures, etc, of course - just a simple analogy).
Can you share some examples of how you use the Enclave and how it's agents interact with PCs and the other powers of the region? Maybe referring to past events in your campaign so you don't spoiler anything for your players. I wuold be grateful.
Thanks for pointing me to some canonical examples, some comments below:
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Mad Wizard experimenting?
Well, Innarlith is in a whole other region (Lake of Steam) far to the south and the Enclave is a really focused and localized organization and for Hlondeth, as i said before, the impression the Enclave made to me is that they don't care if the "civilized" people slaughter each other as long as they don't disrupt the environment.
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Red Wizards?
For Innarlith, see above, i didn't know about Arrabar and Hlath, is this from novels? Sourcebooks? Where can i look for informations on these Thayan enclaves such as size and year of funding.
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Corruption of nature?
That's a tricky one, but i figured the Enclave stayed its hand because the plague struck humans and demihumans at war and it was a great example of the perils of war and of uncontrolled use of magic. Two things the Enclave would like to limit.
But that's just my interpretation and i'm probably wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Large scale war?
This is another tricky one. I expressed myself poorly talking generically about "large scale war" since in Faerun it seems all wars are fought in wide open battles were hordes of infantry men kill each other with at most some pillaging and burning of villages along the way.
Around the Vilhon the closest war-related behaviour that may make the Enclave unhappy is large scale naval war with all the logging it needs. And to my knowledge that didn't happen (the closest thing are big naval battles in the Bay of Chessenta but that's away from the Enclave turf). And (in my probably wrong view of the Enclave) they don't care if humans and demihumans slaughter themselves en masse or destroy their own cities.
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Now, maybe you don't like when NPCs interfere with what your PCs are doing at all, but I find it one of the things that give a setting its soul in a game, really - it's not about "your PCs vs. the villain", it's about a world with lots of different people in it.
Eh, i'm sad i gave this impression, it's far from the truth.
I use lots of NPCs for everything but i don't use them to overshadow the PCs except when they are recurring big bad mastermind villains.
My initial interpretation of the lore on the Emerald Enclave (from The Vilhon Reach suggested that with their power and influence the organization would overshadow any adventuring band in the Vilhon, Turmish and Chondath by a wide margin.
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Expansion of cities and new settlements?
Chondath and Turmish were already settled and the major cities (those that appear on the map) were al already there when the Enclave rose to power, rather, they were the reason why the Enclave was created and the druids said "no more expansion of civilization".
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
New trade routes?
The Lake of Steam region is far away from the concerns of the Enclave. Either i have completely misunderstood the Emerald Enclave writeups or they're completely focused on Turmish, Chondath and the Vilhon Reach proper with interest in aiding the druids of Gulthmere Forest and the elves of the Chondal Wood.
Focusing their efforts in a limited region is of utmost importance since they couldn't exert the same kind of control over larger areas.
All that said, thanks for sharing your insight and helping me understand matters better. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 23:36:20
quote:
Eh, not true. The Enclave actively defends the status quo in the region with them on top. They actively oppose other meddlers such as the harpers and zhentarim to ensure that everything stays the same and that they can keep bashing heads if the civilized people misbehave. They're a big, authoritative, central political power and want the situation to stay as is.
Yes, that is exactly right. In my campaign, in fact, they hold a similar status in the Vilhon as the Church held in Europe in the 1400s (with widely different goals, power structures, etc, of course - just a simple analogy).
quote:
My probelm is they hamstring greatly my freedom to create whatever plot i want if my players go there: mad wizard experimenting? nope, against nature, the Enclave will squash him/her before the PCs ever ear of him/her; Red Wizards? nope, they get killed on sight by the Enclave; corruption of nature? nope, Enclave; large scale war? yes if everyone likes running around and fighting naked, otherwise as soon as they start exploiting the land BAMF Enclave; expansion of cities? Enclave; new settlements? Enclave; new trade routes? Enclave.
xaeyruudh already addressed how that can be theoretically not true. I'll show you how it's canonically not true.
Mad Wizard experimenting? Read the Watercourse Trilogy, Innarlith is not that far from their power base, Marek Rymüt is definitely mad and does a lot of experimenting, and the Enclave isn't even mentioned that I recall. In the House of Serpents trilogy, some people are engineering an unnatural plague in Hlondeth (won't put spoilers), the Enclave doesn't seem to care either.
Red Wizards? Well, there's Innarlith of course, but Arrabar and Hlath also both have Thayan enclaves. So the Emerald Enclave obviously hasn't killed them all on sight.
Corruption of nature? Right, I don't have any examples of that happening in a large scale without the Enclave intervening or caring about it, since that's pretty much the whole point of the Enclave. Of course, that doesn't mean they were always very successful. The magically developed plague that ravaged the Vilhon in 902 DR is exactly the sort of thing they want to stop, but they failed miserably.
Large scale war? You have the aformentioned Rotting War of 900-902 DR of course, but there's more examples. 1220 DR, Turmish launches an attack against the Ironfang Deep dwarves. 1247 DR, civil war strikes in Turmish. 1342 DR, Hlath sacks and burns Iljak. And of course, Chondath is a land known for its mercenaries, and is stated to have been supplying them to fight in wars all over Chessenta, which is right next door to the Enclave as well, since 1150 DR. There are other less bloody conflicts too, none mention the Emerald Enclave. If they were involved, they weren't crucial to the outcome. Also, read the Scions of Arrabar trilogy, there's something happening in Reth that would classify as both war and magical experimenting. The Emerald Enclave does interfere, by sending (arguably) one of its more powerful agents to help the protagonist achieve a goal (which makes a lot of sense as far as the story went). Now, maybe you don't like when NPCs interfere with what your PCs are doing at all, but I find it one of the things that give a setting its soul in a game, really - it's not about "your PCs vs. the villain", it's about a world with lots of different people in it.
Expansion of cities and new settlements? Well, surely Chondath didn't grow to almost two million inhabitants while being herded into people-preserves by the Emerald Enclave. It's actually a densely populated and urban land by Faerûnian standards, with a similar demographic to Sembia (which is also in a bit of a detente with nature-lovers, heh). When it expands too much into the Chondalwood, it usually gets beaten back badly by the elves and the Enclave, sure. That hasn't really stopped them from trying, though.
New trade routes? Canal from the Lake of Steam to the Nagaflow - try to beat that as a new trade route. Apparently the Enclave doesn't mind that much - it's a big hole filled with water after all. Maybe it will affect the grazing habits of local herds, but they really have more important stuff on their minds, I suppose. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 10:50:44
You make good points and, as i said to Markustay, seeing things from the perspective of others is helping me mitigate my initial overreaction. However:
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
All cities are unnatural. The clearing of the land, before the first bricks are stacked, is done at the expense of nature. If the Enclave were as you paint them, no city would stand. Furthermore, given their eagerness to destroy natural creatures (humans and demihumans) it seems that sort of Enclave would have no reason to let yuan-ti exist. That was the point of the Hlondeth example.
The Enclave was founded in 374 DR on Ilighon and wasn't so active in the region until 717 DR. By then all major cities were already established and the druids simply said "no more".
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Larloch is "evil" in the sense of wanting what he wants without regard for how it affects others. He's cold and calculating, and powerful enough to do basically whatever he wants. We call that evil, but a significant amount of the animus behind that label is fear. Larloch doesn't go out of his way to do bad things. He just pursues what he wants to pursue. I'm not saying he shouldn't be considered evil. I'm just saying that alignment isn't an exact science. Evidence: many examples of "good" individuals and organizations carving a path through all opposition in their pursuit of what they want. In many cases those wants are recognized as evil by anyone who gives it a few seconds' thought.
Which is probably a tangent, because I think my point here is that Larloch seems less evil than some would have us believe.
Again, i'n not saying the Enclave is evil, i'm saying the Enclave is another ultra powerful organization in the Realms but, unlike Larloch that is ultra powerful but minds his own business, they are very active in Turmish and Chondath.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I'm reminded of someone here. Who was it? Gosh it's on the tip of my tongue...
Oh yea. Shade.
One point is that the Enclave shouldn't be that bad. If WotC writes them that way, change them. Another angle is that given WotC's apparent fondness for Shade, another superpowered organization shouldn't really surprise anyone.
Right, as i said, i probably took the sourcebook too much to the letter.
But when it states that the Enclave actively kills the harpers that stick their nose in the political situation and that in this endeavor is more effective at thwarting their plans than the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards, well, i feel justified in overreacting.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I think the Enclave is only a big problem for those who pursue actions which have a huge negative impact on nature. Individual druids defend many individual areas around the Realms. The Enclave opposes those who act "above and beyond" to damage the natural environment.
Eh, not true. The Enclave actively defends the status quo in the region with them on top. They actively oppose other meddlers such as the harpers and zhentarim to ensure that everything stays the same and that they can keep bashing heads if the civilized people misbehave. They're a big, authoritative, central political power and want the situation to stay as is.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Meaning, in a way, those who are worse than Larloch. And if your PCs are that bad, maybe they're the ones who deserve to be taken down a few notches.
As i said to Marcustay, the problem are not the PCs, the problem are the baddies the PCs will stumble upon and oppose, if there aren't baddies 'cause the Enclave has everything under control (and The Vilhon Reach makes it seem like this is the case) then the PCs will just go somewhere else to find evil plans to thwart and places to save, and it's a situation i hate.
It's good having someone else chime in on the matter because this lets me see the faults in my reasoning and better elaborate my thoughts, so i thank you for your input. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 17:37:28
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
they simply nuke it killing all workers, then send treants to destroy the home of who ordered the work on the bridge and leave their battered bodies in front of the city gates as a reminder for the future.
I think the circumstances would matter here, particularly for the hit on the designer's home/family, but the destruction of bridges is consistent with the agenda of any druid. Bridges aren't built for a lone adventurer to cross a river once every hundred years on the way to some faraway land. Bridges are built for trade, and that translates to mass murder. A couple dozen woodcutters is a very bad thing, but a steady flow of caravans obliterates the entire ecosystem. Where there are bridges and roads, trees are cut and animals are slain on a grand scale. The only time a bridge is acceptable is when the alternative is worse. A semi-permanent stone bridge in an open region causes less destruction than choking the river with trees and rocks in several places to make crossings wherever people want them. So let them have a bridge, and guard the rest of the river from lazy despoilers who want to build their own personal fords in addition.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
the Enclave is a neutral force, not a good one: they could care less if within Hlondeth bloodsucking infernal abissal ovepowered doomsday gargantuan reptilian monsters devour the population, the only concern of the Enclave is if they start expanding the city or building at the expense of nature
All cities are unnatural. The clearing of the land, before the first bricks are stacked, is done at the expense of nature. If the Enclave were as you paint them, no city would stand. Furthermore, given their eagerness to destroy natural creatures (humans and demihumans) it seems that sort of Enclave would have no reason to let yuan-ti exist. That was the point of the Hlondeth example.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
a merchant prince from Turmish decided to build a new village, a druid went there and said "no you don't", the merchant prince said "yes, i'm already doing it, die" and killed the druid, two days later earth elementals from the woods and water elementals from the river showed up and killed everyone and destroyed everything.
Well yea, if he killed the druid I would expect some violent retribution.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Larloch is a big bad don't-go-there that just sits in his crypt doing his things, they are big neutral don't-go-there that boss everyone around them and enforce their philosophy without fear of retribution and without remorse.
Larloch is "evil" in the sense of wanting what he wants without regard for how it affects others. He's cold and calculating, and powerful enough to do basically whatever he wants. We call that evil, but a significant amount of the animus behind that label is fear. Larloch doesn't go out of his way to do bad things. He just pursues what he wants to pursue. I'm not saying he shouldn't be considered evil. I'm just saying that alignment isn't an exact science. Evidence: many examples of "good" individuals and organizations carving a path through all opposition in their pursuit of what they want. In many cases those wants are recognized as evil by anyone who gives it a few seconds' thought.
Which is probably a tangent, because I think my point here is that Larloch seems less evil than some would have us believe.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
My probelm is they hamstring greatly my freedom to create whatever plot i want if my players go there: mad wizard experimenting? nope, against nature, the Enclave will squash him/her before the PCs ever ear of him/her; Red Wizards? nope, they get killed on sight by the Enclave; corruption of nature? nope, Enclave; large scale war? yes if everyone likes running around and fighting naked, otherwise as soon as they start exploiting the land BAMF Enclave; expansion of cities? Enclave; new settlements? Enclave; new trade routes? Enclave.
Respectfully, these aren't problems.
Mad wizard experimenting? Okay, one of at least two possibilities must be true. A.) the wizard is mad but not sylvicidal. (It's possible; Halaster is mad and doesn't bother druids.) Or B.) The Enclave doesn't know about him yet. Also totally possible: even if they have members and spies all over the Vilhon (which is giving them too much credit) they still aren't everywhere at all times, and people are sneaky. It may take them a while to notice him, as long as he doesn't walk around shooting off 9th level spells and artifact powers in public every day. Even if the mad wizard is committing crimes against nature, it can easily be the case that the PCs are in the right place at the right time to discover it before the Enclave, and they can end the budding reign of terror, and the Enclave notices their action and rewards or thinks highly of them as a result.
Red Wizards? Okay, not all of them wear their robes in public. Most probably do, in the lands where they can get away with it. You'll see red robes in Sembia and Mulmaster and perhaps even rural Impiltur, but you probably won't see them in Shadowdale or Berdusk or Silverymoon. Red Wizards are arrogant and brash, but they're not stupid. The ones who survive long enough to become a problem must be intelligent enough to wear blues and greens when the situation calls for it. Once again, maybe the PCs overhear the disguised Red Wizard talking to his disguised apprentices in a southern tongue (which they probably won't know, but they can easily guess) and after a little bit of focused spy work they deduce his true affiliations and either bring him low themselves or (if he must be eliminated now before he does some dastardly deed, and they lack the power to stop him themselves) report him to the Enclave.
Corruption of nature? Okay, there are corruptions that happen on a small scale or in hidden places. The Enclave doesn't have any long-range detect corruption spells that enable them to pinpoint bad things happening and teleport there without error and unleash immediate overwhelming doom on the perpetrators, and if they do have that capability you should probably remove it from your campaign because it hinders roleplaying and PC opportunities, and WotC should know better than to write things like that. Maybe somebody's working on poisoning a river, but so far it's just in their cellar and being dripped slowly into a hidden well. An adventure could be written where the PCs discover that before the perpetrator's next door neighbors even know what's going on, let alone the Enclave. Maybe you're thinking a bigger corruption; a portal to the Far Realm, through which wicked weirdness will ooze and warp the fabric of reality? The Enclave will certainly find out about that once the portal actually opens and warping starts occurring, but they're not the only ones... the Harpers would be all over that too. Heck, Larloch would have issues with that. There's ample opportunity for PCs to discover such plots before they reach that point, or perhaps they're hired by the Enclave or another organization to investigate and deal with the problem before it gets out of hand.
Large scale war? Okay, the Enclave probably wouldn't be concerned about hundreds or thousands of humans/demihumans killing each other, but wars are always hell on the land and animals in the area. They would probably seek to confine the fighting to already-civilized areas... fight in the streets all you want, just not in the forest. Of course, the Enclave would also be concerned about dangerous magic, like summoning portals and such... but if it's just fighter-types decapitating each other... good riddance.
Expansion of cities? Okay, not a problem as long as it doesn't impact the land around. Why should the Enclave care whether a city covers 2 square miles or 3, if we're talking about bare earth? And we are, because all cities (if they're big enough to have walls and standing armies) have a zone of half-dead earth around them where caravans and troops have stomped down the grass, driven out the animals, and cut all the trees. Moving the walls out a bit doesn't have any additional direct impact. Indirectly, yes they're expanding the walls because they have too many people, and a bigger city means more people will come in and live there... but the answer to that is to make it uncomfortable to live there, rather than expend huge amounts of magical power on destroying the city. If the trees start turning into treants and killing loggers, and dire animals begin appearing and menacing anyone who leaves the gates, and a dragon turtle or elemental (or wildshaped druid) sinks a ship every month or so, and campfires within two days' ride of the city start growing faces and issuing dire warnings to travelers, and weird haunting noises make it impossible to sleep... trade is going to dry up and shopkeepers will relocate. Problem solved, with only low expenditures of magic. Then a nature elemental can be summoned to erase the remains of the city; this will inform everyone that it was the Enclave's will, just as clearly as Enclave druids showing up and raining destruction down on the city, without the loss of life and huge amounts of ill will.
New settlements/roads? Depends on where it is, and who's in charge. New settlements start up all the time, and vanish a few years or decades later because they were built by one ambitious guy and when he dies those who remain realize that building the settlement into a real community takes more work than they care to invest, and they go back to their previous homes. It's a different story if they're refugees, and they don't have a home to go back to, and everyone is driven to make this community last... those might be more problematic. Once again, though, dire animals and a few good hauntings will encourage most folks to make a home somewhere else, without needing elemental swarms or storms of vengeance.
I do agree that the Enclave would oppose the expansion of civilization, in terms of the amount of the land and its bounty which is corrupted and slain by cities. I think maybe we differ in our views of how they would go about discouraging it, though. Given that a significant number of peasants actually like/respect the Enclave, it seems to me that their methods can't be very deadly to the common folk.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
whatever i send my players to do i need to be extra carefull that they don't hurt the feeling of trees or kill the wrong rabbit for dinner
I think perhaps you're giving the Enclave too much "credit" here. Regardless of their personal power, they are finite in number, and the limited number of hours in every day means that they have to prioritize. Only the biggest, baddest offenses will gain their attention... and even then only if they happen to be there to witness it or someone brings it to their attention. Some individuals will feel compelled to report things to the druids... some won't. I think the PCs would need to go on an unholy crusade to kill all rabbits, and make their intent known to everyone they meet, and inspire hate/fear in everyone they meet, and actually achieve a measure of success in their rabbit rampage, before the Enclave would do something about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Furthermore, the Enclave is so powerfull that they don't even need to hire anyone else to do their work. They don't even care about good relations with neighbouring nations (once the rich land of Turmish wanted to get rid of them, sent a big fleet, not a single piece of wood got past the elementals) so they don't need intermediaries even on that front.
I'm reminded of someone here. Who was it? Gosh it's on the tip of my tongue...
Oh yea. Shade.
One point is that the Enclave shouldn't be that bad. If WotC writes them that way, change them. Another angle is that given WotC's apparent fondness for Shade, another superpowered organization shouldn't really surprise anyone.
My thought: make the Enclave a real superpower and use them to get rid of Shade. 
I think the Enclave is only a big problem for those who pursue actions which have a huge negative impact on nature. Individual druids defend many individual areas around the Realms. The Enclave opposes those who act "above and beyond" to damage the natural environment. Meaning, in a way, those who are worse than Larloch. And if your PCs are that bad, maybe they're the ones who deserve to be taken down a few notches. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 16:55:32
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Don't like trees, much?
Eh, not when they stand there watching me menacingly. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You're thinking of these guys as 'ecoterrorists', but you don't have to worry about a thing if you are just a normal person doing normal things. If I chop down a tree behind my house (I have a forest behind my house), or forget to recycle a soda-can, I don't have to worry - they aren't going to eradicate my entire neighborhood (the ecoterrorists or the druids.. I know they're out there, watching...)
But if you 'despoil' something they hold dear, then you've opened-up a whole barrel of whoop-arse. Here's the thing - we really don't know what they 'hold dear' until they've given a warning, and apparently they ALWAYS give a warning (might neighborly of them, me thinks). You are looking at things a bit skewed, and interpreting the lore in a certain way (and also insisting that way is correct). That village the noble was building? Maybe it was on an 'ancient Elven buriel ground' or some such. Plenty of villages have been built all over the Vilhon Reach - thousand of them - but we don't hear about any of them. You know why? the druids didn't stomp on those.
There are certain things (left entirely open to the DMs) that the druids 'hold dear' and will protect, but there are far more things the druids simply don't care about. Hunting? Why would they care about that? Thats a natural thing - animals do it everyday. Over-hunting? Well, you'd probably get some sort of 'friendly advise', like a druid showing-up and reminding you that you are eradicating your food-source, and perhaps you should "hunt to the West" for the rest of the season. Going into an a region and destroying all the vegetation and animals (scorched earth war tactics), then you damn well know they will be all over you like halflings on a cheese-wheel.
Its the same thing with everything in life. Doing something is fine, but over-doing anything leads to imbalance and is destructive, whether it be eating, exercising, drinking, etc, etc... all forms of 'gluttony' are unnatural, and will be addressed, either by the druids, or by nature itself. You cannot continue excessive behavior indefinitely.
So what could your PCs possibly do that would anger the druids? If you feel what they are doing would anger the druids, then guess what? It would, because at the end of the day, YOU decide what will anger the druids, not some sourcebook.
My problem aren't the PCs (well, on most campaings anyway), my problem are the bad guys doing bad things for profit/fun/whatever that lead the PCs to do something about the bad guys.
All those activities i listed previously are plot hooks i feel i can't use due to the presence of the Enclave.
Anyway, talking about it here is helping me reconsider them.
I still think i'll have to do something to take them down a notch or two but i don't feel any urgency now, good for them in my game world i suppose. |
| Renin |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 14:56:48
I thought it mentioned in the 2e supplement, or maybe I also took it from the 3e Guide (since my campaign is also based in Chondath) that there is severe logging rules as such imposed by the Emerald Enclave, which is generally followed. Also, their influence severely wanes the further SW you travel on the Emerald Corridor towards Arrabar, so they aren't 'all-powerful wardens of the land' either. But they really get on Hlath and Reth about any over-logging!
Its the illegal logging, and clear-cutting that makes the Enclave go ballistic. And sure, there are probably low-level, solo druids and such that are ready to take things personal, but I'm sure that encounter can be turned into a case for the PCs to make a new ally. ;)
At least, that's how I've interpreted the source and material. I don't need a select group of <relatively> few members keeping an iron grip over a loose nation of city-states. I don't even believe it could come to that. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 14:34:09
Don't like trees, much?
You're thinking of these guys as 'ecoterrorists', but you don't have to worry about a thing if you are just a normal person doing normal things. If I chop down a tree behind my house (I have a forest behind my house), or forget to recycle a soda-can, I don't have to worry - they aren't going to eradicate my entire neighborhood (the ecoterrorists or the druids.. I know they're out there, watching...)
But if you 'despoil' something they hold dear, then you've opened-up a whole barrel of whoop-arse. Here's the thing - we really don't know what they 'hold dear' until they've given a warning, and apparently they ALWAYS give a warning (might neighborly of them, me thinks). You are looking at things a bit skewed, and interpreting the lore in a certain way (and also insisting that way is correct). That village the noble was building? Maybe it was on an 'ancient Elven buriel ground' or some such. Plenty of villages have been built all over the Vilhon Reach - thousand of them - but we don't hear about any of them. You know why? the druids didn't stomp on those.
There are certain things (left entirely open to the DMs) that the druids 'hold dear' and will protect, but there are far more things the druids simply don't care about. Hunting? Why would they care about that? Thats a natural thing - animals do it everyday. Over-hunting? Well, you'd probably get some sort of 'friendly advise', like a druid showing-up and reminding you that you are eradicating your food-source, and perhaps you should "hunt to the West" for the rest of the season. Going into an a region and destroying all the vegetation and animals (scorched earth war tactics), then you damn well know they will be all over you like halflings on a cheese-wheel.
Its the same thing with everything in life. Doing something is fine, but over-doing anything leads to imbalance and is destructive, whether it be eating, exercising, drinking, etc, etc... all forms of 'gluttony' are unnatural, and will be addressed, either by the druids, or by nature itself. You cannot continue excessive behavior indefinitely.
So what could your PCs possibly do that would anger the druids? If you feel what they are doing would anger the druids, then guess what? It would, because at the end of the day, YOU decide what will anger the druids, not some sourcebook. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 10:23:18
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Based on that, I would treat the Emerald Enclave as druids. They are strategically located to control/disrupt oceangoing trade in the Vilhon Reach, but it doesn't sound like they do that... they just repel/destroy "unauthorized personnel" who get close to their islands.
That's just the tip of the iceberg of their self defense and they have no goal of disrupting naval trade, they don't care about that.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
They're politically active -- maybe moreso than the average druid circle, but that probably depends on the campaign and how the DM plays the average druid circle. Their political stance mirrors druidic ideals though, and I wouldn't classify them as evil. They're just disinclined to compromise.
No they're not evil, they are the perfect practical example of true neutral because they have the power and means to beat everyone around them that misbehaves: they don't care who is building the bridge (Jack the Pious or Jimmy the Evil Trickster), they simply nuke it killing all workers, then send treants to destroy the home of who ordered the work on the bridge and leave their battered bodies in front of the city gates as a reminder for the future.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
The leadership of the Enclave, regardless of their Chosen status, doesn't simply waltz in and *do* things without specific and probably sharp provocation. At least that's how I would play them. A level 30 druid could wreak some havoc in Hlondeth, for instance... perhaps not to the point of exterminating the Extaminos, but the physical structures of the city itself could be destroyed and the Extaminos forced to flee. That hasn't been done... at least not that I know of. Certainly the yuan-ti are not creatures of nature; one might even say they're anathema. 
No they don't waltz in, they just organize and run the island. But the fact they most of the time stay on the island means that unless the DM (in this case, me) wants to use overwhelming force to take them down a notch or two, the druids of the Enclave can keep doing whatever please them when it please them without any fear of consequences because they can fall back to a power base no enemy can dare to approach.
The Extaminos example you make is a poor one, specifically because the Enclave is a neutral force, not a good one: they could care less if within Hlondeth bloodsucking infernal abissal ovepowered doomsday gargantuan reptilian monsters devour the population, the only concern of the Enclave is if they start expanding the city or building at the expense of nature, and if the Extaminos do that than BOOM! wrath of the Enclave upon them, hundreds of dead bodies in the storm and the druids are back to Ilighon for their vegan lunch or whatever they eat (maybe people).
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
So I don't see the Enclave as being an in-your-face kind of presence in the Realms.
And you're wrong, they're in your face in capital letters around the Vilhon Reach if they think you're messing with nature, whoever "you" are. The 2e Vilhon Reach showcase how the Enclave operates: a merchant prince from Turmish decided to build a new village, a druid went there and said "no you don't", the merchant prince said "yes, i'm already doing it, die" and killed the druid, two days later earth elementals from the woods and water elementals from the river showed up and killed everyone and destroyed everything.
What you say about the philosophy of the Enclave is all right and good. The problem here is more practical, they're there like Larloch but the comparison ends here: Larloch is a big bad don't-go-there that just sits in his crypt doing his things, they are big neutral don't-go-there that boss everyone around them and enforce their philosophy without fear of retribution and without remorse.
My probelm is they hamstring greatly my freedom to create whatever plot i want if my players go there: mad wizard experimenting? nope, against nature, the Enclave will squash him/her before the PCs ever ear of him/her; Red Wizards? nope, they get killed on sight by the Enclave; corruption of nature? nope, Enclave; large scale war? yes if everyone likes running around and fighting naked, otherwise as soon as they start exploiting the land BAMF Enclave; expansion of cities? Enclave; new settlements? Enclave; new trade routes? Enclave.
So either i stick to political intrigues (and i highly dislike monothematic campaigns) or whatever i send my players to do i need to be extra carefull that they don't hurt the feeling of trees or kill the wrong rabbit for dinner or they get on the Enclave bad side, and once there the super duper druids of doom will get them from their impregnable fortress.
Furthermore, the Enclave is so powerfull that they don't even need to hire anyone else to do their work. They don't even care about good relations with neighbouring nations (once the rich land of Turmish wanted to get rid of them, sent a big fleet, not a single piece of wood got past the elementals) so they don't need intermediaries even on that front.
I feel a bit silly and stupid because i'm complaining in the typical anti-Chosen manner ("whhaaaaa Elminster is everywhere my players can't do a thing"), the problem here is that while i know Elminster has plenty of things to do everywhere and its far from omnipresent, the Enclave in the Vilhon Reach is portrayed as omniscient, overpowered, arrogant and heavy handed. So i'm at a loss.
I'll be very interested in your take on them Mapolq, if you want to be so kind as to share it. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 05:54:11
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
These people have greater concerns, and they're all watching each other.
A great reminder.
I too would be interested in seeing how others portray the enclave. Especially those who use them regularly and have established a consistent identity for them (since presenting a "unified front" is one of their goals). |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 02:33:38
The Enclave is actually rather important in my campaign, given that it is based on the Vilhon. But I believe xaeyruudh gave a good description of them. Mine are different, of course, and so will be every other, but it's a nice point to go from.
I'll just add one thing that should be kept in mind when talking about organisations or individual such as these: Elminsters' advice on that "The concerns of the mighty" sidebar doesn't apply just to the Chosen of Mystra, or heroes. These people have greater concerns, and they're all watching each other. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 16 Sep 2013 : 20:23:01
First, my knowledge of the lore surrounding the Enclave is very incomplete, and I haven't used them in campaigns. I've glanced at the 3e campaign setting entry and skimmed Vilhon Reach, and that's about it.
Based on that, I would treat the Emerald Enclave as druids. They are strategically located to control/disrupt oceangoing trade in the Vilhon Reach, but it doesn't sound like they do that... they just repel/destroy "unauthorized personnel" who get close to their islands.
They're politically active -- maybe moreso than the average druid circle, but that probably depends on the campaign and how the DM plays the average druid circle. Their political stance mirrors druidic ideals though, and I wouldn't classify them as evil. They're just disinclined to compromise.
That explains their relationship with the mainstream church of Silvanus. The church doesn't persecute or revile them, because their goals are similar/identical. The church bends a little, though, like a tree in the wind. A member of the Enclave might say the church bends more like a reed in a hurricane, but that's an idealist's perspective for ya. The Enclave doesn't bend... it's more like a board in a breeze.
The leadership of the Enclave, regardless of their Chosen status, doesn't simply waltz in and *do* things without specific and probably sharp provocation. At least that's how I would play them. A level 30 druid could wreak some havoc in Hlondeth, for instance... perhaps not to the point of exterminating the Extaminos, but the physical structures of the city itself could be destroyed and the Extaminos forced to flee. That hasn't been done... at least not that I know of. Certainly the yuan-ti are not creatures of nature; one might even say they're anathema.
So I don't see the Enclave as being an in-your-face kind of presence in the Realms. I would say their presence and motive (though not their alignment) are kinda like the Zhentarim... their actions are occasionally more overt than the Harpers, but they would prefer to control things from behind the scenes rather than rule openly as kings/whatever. And they do want to control (like the Zhentarim) rather than simply influence (like the Harpers). I don't think they give rulers enough "benefit of the doubt" to simply guide them... I think they feel people must be controlled. They would not see much intelligence in the Harpers' desire to free everyone to pursue their own (non-evil) goals. However, it wouldn't be fair to put them in the same box with the Zhentarim, because they're not interested in profit, or in domination simply for the love of control.
What are they interested in... I think the point of the Enclave is to speak for that which lacks a voice in "civilized" society. I think the Enclave finds civilization distasteful, when it grows beyond sharing excess resources with those who have a legitimate need for them... but excesses are also to be avoided.
I think members of the Enclave see themselves as trench warriors and martyrs... sacrificing their independence and happiness in the pursuit of justice and fairness for everything that people (regardless of race) take for granted or pointedly seek to dominate/destroy.
They're not evil... but they do believe "the life and peace of this seed are more important than the life or peace of any human or humanoid."
Just initial thoughts. |
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