| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Power2the1 |
Posted - 10 Jul 2013 : 15:11:51
Chances are I'm reading too much into the source info, but some things seem confusing and rant worthy :)
- What are the likelihoods of Gilgeam having some secret or forgotten 'Gilgeam-spawn' running around, like Bhaal and his Bhaalspawn, seeing how Gilgeam loved the ladies?
- What are the likelihoods when Gilgeam was reduced in power in the ToT, or even before the ToT, that he may have set aside some avatar, incarnation, aspect, etc. of himself as a measure to ensure his continued existence (seeing how Tiamat gets lucky every time they fight and lives another day)?
- When Gilgeam and Tiamat fought in Unthalass, it was them fighting in the flesh so to speak I believe. So was it an aspect, or incarnation, or avatar of Gilgeam that was killed in Unthalass?
- Once they then fought in the Planes, which I assume was after Unthalass, how did this occur when the Gilgeam in Unthalass was already killed?
- Why didn't/couldn't the Untheric pantheon at earth do anything when the Imaskari barrier fell? Mulhorand had no problem bridging earth and the FR. I can't understand why, somehow, it's only the Untheric pantheon seems to care less and ignore fighting for their worshipers in the FR.
- How do we know more detail about the cookie cutter high fantasy Silverymoon, than we do of the entirety of the 3 Old Empire nations in 3.5? Was there a plan to axe and ignore the OE I can find in the published source?
Bah, I digress. I love the FR and the OE. But it seems 'cheap' that half a pantheon dies against orc gods, then the others deities just sorta leave, others willingly give portfolios to other gods, 2 deities start batting for the Faerunian pantheon, and the last one goes crazy despite being as evil, or more evil, than similar gods with hundreds of thousands of evil followers, like Bane or Cyric. Just saying.
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| 5 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 18:30:54
Sorry if I came off like trying to shoot down your ideas. If you want to bring Gilgeam back for your game, by all means do so. The idea of a good-guy Gilgeam returning to replace the evil one could be intriguing.
More pointedly, the Untheric people need some sort of religious tradition. It's not appropriate for Unther to revert to worship of the Faerunian pantheon. If all the God-Kings are dead, the Untheric people will hypothesize the mystical return of one, then several, then perhaps all of them, and they will continue to worship their cultural memory of their gods rather than overtly adopt new ones. Faerunian powers should only make headway in the Old Empires by impersonating God-Kings or remaining very much under-the-radar and quietly recruiting individuals who are dissatisfied with the actions of the repressive churches... never by openly declaring the wonder and power of their non-native gods. The Untheric and Mulhorandi people, as a whole, would simply never adopt the Faerunian pantheon as a whole.
But that's just my opinion. Clearly WotC feels differently.
In my own version of things, Gilgeam was always arrogant and disinclined to make clones or have immortal servants. But it's possible that he was humble and virtuous prior to Enlil's departure and receiving the "reins" of the pantheon --particularly if you decide that Enlil infused Gilgeam with all of his own power when he left-- drove Gilgeam batty. That "absolute power corrupts absolutely" thing.
I completely agree that Gilgeam should be a beacon for evil. Personally I would make him just as depraved and more debauched than any evil power of the Faerunian pantheon -- maybe a sort of mix of Bane and Cyric... not as barmy as Cyric, and not as organized as Bane.
I disagree that Bane had only Zhentil Keep. His priests have established churches all over Faerun, and developed many of them into strongholds through which they control nearby city-states. There's a couple of them on the Lake of Steam, plus wherever the Zhentarim are strong the church of Bane is strong as well.
It's also worth noting that Unther is not wholly devoted to Gilgeam. I hate to bring real-world examples into it, particularly this one because it's been overplayed, but it's kinda like WW2 Germany was not completely in lockstep with Hitler. It's not the case that all Germans hated Jews, or advocated the camps. The people of Unther are suffering under Gilgeam, and most of them know it... they just can't do anything about it... other than falling into the church of Tiamat, which many of them do. There have undoubtedly been rebellions, and every single one of them was crushed by Gilgeam and the army, with massive losses of civilian life. The army itself can't defy Gilgeam... what hope does an individual citizen have? Even all the citizens of Unthalass, rising in unified rebellion, would be unable to bring Gilgeam down; they're just 0-level commoners and experts. 
The same can be (and has been) said of Zhentil Keep. Not all Zhents are Banites... and not all Banites are hardcore "death before dishonor" zealots... and not all hardcore zealots are charismatic enough to climb the chain of command to a place where they can enforce their desires on a whole city. Same goes for Thay; not all of its people are evil... but they're probably a darker gray than many other places just because all light and hope are systematically and constantly expunged from Thay by the Red Wizards. But the Red Wizards are not wholly evil or mindslaves of the Zulkirs either..
Point is, neither Bane nor Gilgeam have huge focused bodies of devout worshipers... but Bane has a larger number of zealots than Gilgeam, and they're all over the Realms. And in some ways, a widely distributed group can do a lot more damage than a tightly gathered group.
All just my interpretations/opinions. YMMV.  |
| Power2the1 |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 15:12:42
Thanks for the replies, all!
I was thinking more on the issue of if Gilgeam would have set aside some portion of his power...
Before he became the tyrannical Gilgeam we all know, he was a respectable force of good and believed in the tenets of good. It seems plausible that, at least to me, seeing his fellow deities in the Untheric pantheon dropping like flies, that it is very possible being a sane deity at the time, that Gilgeam may have done 'something' to ensure his survival. I'm unsure if good guy Gilgeam was more powerful than bad guy Gilgeam. Still, at no other time would the idea of his own immortality be as in doubt and shaken than after the Orcgate Wars.
This is complete fantasy conjecture on my part: I agree very much with the evil Gigleam tolerating no rivals. If any possible Gilgeam spawn were born, which undoubtedly they were due to his lovin' the ladies, the question could be would they be successful in keeping their kid hidden away or leaving Unther? Once the offspring came of age, would they have knowledge of the fate of previous offspring and high tail it out before it's too late? Again, complete what ifs, but I still wonder.
Also, I wonder why Gilgeam did not attract more 'evil' worshipers. Unther should be a mecca. I do not know if he was more cruel or as evil as Bane, Cyric, and all them. But he had to have came close or perhaps surpassed then since Gilgeam ruled an entire nation, while Bane had only zenthil Keep, for example. So it would seem that the degree of cruelty or evilness would be greater in Unther at the hand of Gilgeam than anywhere else in the FR. Runner up would be Thay but I cannot think of rivals to those two.
Yet, we get tons of sources on Zenthil Keep, and other small, minor areas of the FR where evil hangs out - these mostly being a singular organization with some respectable power outside their Keep or group of cities, but that pales in comparison to Gigleam's Unther. Were I a LE or NE character, I think a nation ruled by tyranny and evil, would appeal more than a few cities (I'm looking at you, Zenthil Keep) ruled by tyranny and evil.
The Alabaster Staff was a pretty good book. The opening battle between Tiamat and Gigleam was the best part imho. Still, it's all we have on Unther from novel pov so it's valued for OE fans like myself. And yes, I'm with all those who hope that 5E/NEXT does a rewind. The FR need it badly. |
| coach |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 00:31:59
the Alabaster Staff had something about an attempt to raise Gilgeam |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 10 Jul 2013 : 19:29:47
quote:
Originally posted by Power2the1
Chances are I'm reading too much into the source info, but some things seem confusing and rant worthy :)
Indeed, the 3e and 4e handling of the Old Empires is definitely rantworthy.
The following is just my take on it, based on my reading of FR10.
quote:
- What are the likelihoods of Gilgeam having some secret or forgotten 'Gilgeam-spawn' running around, like Bhaal and his Bhaalspawn, seeing how Gilgeam loved the ladies?
Highly likely, but it's also very likely that (1) they would become mighty warriors like their father, and (2) Gilgeam would hear about them as they became famous and he would summon them to Unthalass for a wrestling match, where he would kill them either through sheer physical prowess, the magical abilities his manifestation commands (30-40 levels of fighter, cleric, and probably illusionist), or if all else fails underhanded trickery and just plain old murder. Gilgeam is arrogance and paranoia personified... he is compelled to crush all potential rivals, particularly the ones who become popular. He will call on his opponents to act with honor and "play fair" but he won't do so himself... if anyone complains, he'll kill them too.
quote:
- What are the likelihoods when Gilgeam was reduced in power in the ToT, or even before the ToT, that he may have set aside some avatar, incarnation, aspect, etc. of himself as a measure to ensure his continued existence (seeing how Tiamat gets lucky every time they fight and lives another day)?
Extremely unlikely, due to his arrogance. Gilgeam would not have foreseen the ToT, so he couldn't have acted in advance. He cannot tolerate incarnations (avatars) because they might get a mind of their own and rally popular support against him. He's so arrogant that he would have refused to acknowledge any reduction in his own power during the ToT, to avoid the appearance of weakness... even in his own mind. He will not acknowledge anyone/anything as his equal or superior, so a confrontation with Tiamat deserves no more preparation or consideration than a fight with any other puny weakling.
I think it's important to note that Gilgeam does not have a history of fighting other God-Kings or Gods. At least not since the Orcgate Wars, and it's safe to assume that he was protected by Enlil and the rest of the Untheric pantheon at that time... in fact, that's an excellent justification for so many Untheric god-kings dying in that war... they fell while trying to protect the rash and headstrong young Gilgeam, who charged heedlessly into melee with four or five orc gods at once. Since then, Gilgeam has fought mortal men who have exceptional physical strength but no powerful magic -- not powerful enough to really threaten a manifestation, at least. So he's ignorant of Tiamat's power, because he's never confronted her directly before. But even if he had realized her power, he still wouldn't have tried to save part of his power in a receptacle of some sort, such as creating a Chosen or an artifact... plus, he wouldn't know how. Gilgeam has a one-track mind: beat his opponent into submission with an overwhelming first attack. If that were to somehow fail, which it never has so far, then distract them and strike again from behind with overwhelming force. He's the ultimate playground bully... no planning, no strategy, no compassion... and no real friends.
quote:
- When Gilgeam and Tiamat fought in Unthalass, it was them fighting in the flesh so to speak I believe. So was it an aspect, or incarnation, or avatar of Gilgeam that was killed in Unthalass?
In the flesh, Gilgeam's manifestation vs Tiamat's avatar. When his manifestation died, he should have been truly dead... but WotC had other ideas.
quote:
- Once they then fought in the Planes, which I assume was after Unthalass, how did this occur when the Gilgeam in Unthalass was already killed?
No idea. You're right that it doesn't make sense, in the context of the way the God-Kings were written in FR10. WotC decided some time in 3e to make the God-Kings into standard gods, with avatars/whatever, so they "had to" change a bunch of neat ideas into total crap. As far as WotC was concerned, the God-Kings were just small pieces (essentially avatars) of the "real" gods, so even after Gilgeam's manifestation was dead the "real" Gilgeam could fight with Tiamat in the outer planes.
quote:
- Why didn't/couldn't the Untheric pantheon at earth do anything when the Imaskari barrier fell? Mulhorand had no problem bridging earth and the FR. I can't understand why, somehow, it's only the Untheric pantheon seems to care less and ignore fighting for their worshipers in the FR.
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here. LEoF does ignore the Untheric pantheon (iirc) and just talks about Horus fighting the Imaskari. Which was confusing given that it should have been Re in charge back then, but maybe Eric Boyd can clarify that. Worst case: we can assume that Re was giving orders and Horus was carrying them out.
The Imaskari barrier is a big can of worms, and I think WotC picked the wrong way to translate it into 3e terms. In the official history, neither the Mulhorandi nor Untheric God-Kings stuck around. As soon as Ao dropped the god-blocking barrier, after the ToT, the remnants of both pantheons abruptly vacated the Realms.
As to why Enlil and Gilgeam weren't in the conflict with the Imaskari... I got nothin. They should have been there.
quote:
- How do we know more detail about the cookie cutter high fantasy Silverymoon, than we do of the entirety of the 3 Old Empire nations in 3.5? Was there a plan to axe and ignore the OE I can find in the published source?
I don't know, but I would guess so yea. If we were to find whoever was in charge of the FR at WotC at that time, and tie them to a chair and feed them truth serum, I imagine that they would say the Old Empires remained mostly untouched in 3e because it was an unpopular corner of the setting and that this is what led to it being destroyed in 4e. I would be curious to hear how they estimate the likeability of particular areas of the setting because it seems like circular reasoning to say "we're not writing about this because nobody cares" while concluding that nobody cares about it because they're not buying the books that you're not writing, but whatever. The bottom line is that there was a *lot* of potential coolness here, and WotC just totally failed to see/develop it.
quote:
Bah, I digress. I love the FR and the OE. But it seems 'cheap' that half a pantheon dies against orc gods, then the others deities just sorta leave, others willingly give portfolios to other gods, 2 deities start batting for the Faerunian pantheon, and the last one goes crazy despite being as evil, or more evil, than similar gods with hundreds of thousands of evil followers, like Bane or Cyric. Just saying.
I love the Old Empires too, and I agree that it was badly mishandled. Hopefully, 5e will give us a rewind and we'll be able to develop it again. I'm not going to rely on WotC to do it... I think it's on us. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Jul 2013 : 18:46:15
I sympathise, it is a shame they abandoned the old empires in almost every edition, it had plenty of potential.
The important things to remember are.
1 - Not everything about the Time of Troubles makes sense so I would just accept what happened and don't try to explain it. Every god was supposedly in avatar form and when they died they died, but not Gilgeam or Tiamat it would seem as Tiamat died once and survived and Gilgeam died twice and stayed dead.
2 - The history of Unther was written according to Gilgeam so its probably all lies.
In Gilgeam's write up it says he was too paranoid to have children or even create another avatar of himself. I don't buy that completely, even ultra paranoid gods want to live forever so he probably had another avatar walled up somewhere so he couldn't escape (a completely bonkers avatar having been imprisoned for millennia).
It is true that according to the history we knew most of the Untheric pantheon was killed in the orcgate wars or left. It does seem plausible that a great many gods would have died in battle against the savage orc gods. Those that just left does seem a little less plausible (since they came to FR following their kidnapped people). Earth was depopulated of their worshippers so why would a god choose to return to nothingness.
It seems more likely to me that Gilgeam arranged for their disappearance/death and just wrote history to say that they left.
Anyways that's just my two cents. I tried to flesh out the history of Mulhorand and Unther in another scroll here and created a timeline including all the known history of Unther (most of it kindly provided by Mr Boyd), plus a few bits of my own musings to explain future events in Unther (not including 4e) |
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