| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 04:09:41
Don't understand why the requirements for assassin PrC in 3.5ED is evil?? Why can't you have a CN assassin? Stupid I say. My CN copper elf has been doing great as a assassin and now my fellow campaign players are giving me grief. |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 04:26:14
I think alignment mechanics need to go, but not alignment itself. And of course there need to be some adjudication from the DM on how these spells actually effect whats gping on. Action fuels alignment, not the other way around. So a Necromancer who raises an undead zombie to til and tend fields to produce crops to feed a village is a good act, regardless of how that necromancer came to by that zombie. One might hope that the necromancer asked the deceased family for permission but sometimes thats not possible. |
| Kyrel |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 18:44:43
Nope TBeholder. Fortunately it does not. And as an optional sidebar rule, or something used ONLY as a guideline for roleplaying, but with otherwise no game mechanical effect, I wouldn't as opposed to the Alignment garbage as I am. If written well enough, the Alignment can indeed act as a help to players who might find such a "tool" useful. The descriptions of some of the different Alignments are, however, IMO utterly annoying and written in such a way as to leave the impression of a "chaotic evil" for instance, completely incompatible with participation in a cooperative roleplaying game. If people played evil characters in the manner the Alignment systems describe them, it's unlikely that you would be able to go as much as a single session, before you'd have at least two characters in a group engaged in a fight, trying to kill one another. That's not a good guideline for good roleplaying, nor conductive to creating fun games.
Additionally, as it is, the Alignment rules impose a hard and fast black/white morality measuring stick upon the game, and that bothers me to no bloody end. A Necromancer who raises a bunch of dead corpses to assist in the defense of a small peasant village facing an orc attack, is committing an evil act. Same thing if he raises a poor farmer's dead horse, in order to let the farmer tend his fields, so that his family won't have to starve, because he can't afford to replace the dead horse. He's acting in an evil manner per definition, because he's using an "evil" spell.
The Alignment system as it is and has historically been, is a heap of steaming rubbish. Re-write the descriptions to support characters who can actually function in a game, and then consign it to a sidebar where it can be used as a roleplaying guideline for those who want to use it. And get rid of the two-dimensional morality crap that has been infesting the game-rules for decades. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 18 Aug 2013 : 20:53:27
Speaking of assassins and Lawful Evil, here's a good (er... evil  ) example: Akikage - a ghost of some determined, but unlucky ninja who himself got bumped off before he could reach the assigned mark, but... he... must!
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
I do, of course, also absolutely hate and loathe the IMO sheer simplified, dumbed down, absolute ridiculous idiocy that is the Alignment System, and I keep wishing that it had been burned and burried at it's very inception as a concept, or at it had at least been relegated to an optional rule sidebar. But that's obviously a different topic.
Indeed, if Chaotic Neutral acts like one would expect from Chaotic Evil (which RPGA once used as a reasoning to ban CN), and Lawful Good acts like one would expect from Chaotic Evil (which RPGA, strangely, didn't use to ban LG) - it is, indeed, "sheer simplified, dumbed down, absolute ridiculous idiocy". Yet... how to put it delicately... not to point a charged eyestalk at anyone, but this sheer simplified, dumbed down, absolute ridiculous idiocy does not follow automatically from the presence of a two-letter variable somewhere in game model. 
quote:
Use the chosen alignment as a guide to provide a clearer idea of how the character will handle moral dilemmas. Always consider alignment as a tool, not a straitjacket that restricts the character.
- AD&D2 PHB
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| Diffan |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 20:25:35
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
Personally I've never been fond of how the Assassin prestige class was done in 3.5, for several reasons. I can see why the game designers would make "Evil" a prerequisite, as it puts the class smack down in the most stereotypical perception of an Assassin as being someone who will kill anyone for the right price, be they good, evil, young, old, deserving, or innocent. It works for a simplified and dumbed down setting with objective morale and shallow fairytale ethics, but not for much of anything else IMO.
Yea, and it's not as though the mechanics of the Assassin are really that powerful to warrent a Alignment requirement in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
I do, of course, also absolutely hate and loathe the IMO sheer simplified, dumbed down, absolute ridiculous idiocy that is the Alignment System, and I keep wishing that it had been burned and burried at it's very inception as a concept, or at it had at least been relegated to an optional rule sidebar. But that's obviously a different topic.
but....but....but....tradition!! [/sarcasm]
Really, I thnk the 4E Assassin (flavor wise + some mechanics) was one of the better iterations of the class. Being able to turn "ghost-like", minor teleport, stabbing people and shadow-based powers ALL sound like a mysterious character and pretty awesome. Also, the Executioner (or Essassin) is also pretty sweet with a bent towards using LOTS of poisons and having a more non-magical style. Also pretty awesome. |
| Kyrel |
Posted - 28 Jul 2013 : 19:27:29
Personally I've never been fond of how the Assassin prestige class was done in 3.5, for several reasons. I can see why the game designers would make "Evil" a prerequisite, as it puts the class smack down in the most stereotypical perception of an Assassin as being someone who will kill anyone for the right price, be they good, evil, young, old, deserving, or innocent. It works for a simplified and dumbed down setting with objective morale and shallow fairytale ethics, but not for much of anything else IMO. I do, of course, also absolutely hate and loathe the IMO sheer simplified, dumbed down, absolute ridiculous idiocy that is the Alignment System, and I keep wishing that it had been burned and burried at it's very inception as a concept, or at it had at least been relegated to an optional rule sidebar. But that's obviously a different topic. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 16:25:06
I never allowed assassin as a class, and I didn't let PCs be assassins. Some of my NPCs, of any class or alignment, were assassins. I'd give them certain thieves abilities to help them. |
| Joebing |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 05:14:30
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Try the Avenger variant:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a
Though Chaotic is barred from that as well.
Just when I thought I had tracked down all of the WotC Web Archives, here comes one that has no link from the archives page...thanks!
On the current topic, in my home game, I have allowed Neutral or Evil assassins, anyone good will now get the Avenger option (though I RARELY see a good character at my home campaign; everyone like CN or Chaotic FUN (CE)).
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| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jul 2013 : 14:41:40
Everything in D&D is a 'Sue-fication' - most knights were not 'honorable'; anything but, really. Living in the 'dark ages' was not a 'fun-filled adventure', unless you are counting the 'facing death every day' as fun-filled.
And I am pretty sure Ninjas weren't magical assassins that could run on the tops of tall grass and water... but you never know. |
| Quale |
Posted - 10 Jul 2013 : 12:56:01
Lol, sue-fication = fantasy
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
[quote]Originally posted by Quale
Yep, this is the reason why I removed alignment restrictions from most of the PrCs when running v3.5 becuase there is usually a case or reason of why it's invalidated.
Agreed for most mortal organizations. Their creed is idealistic, but they could have any type of character, membership depends on personal relations, alignment shouldn't be measurable among the primes. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 08 Jul 2013 : 02:22:18
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Assassin's Creed's assassins seem to be chaotic neutral, their belief is ''nothing is true, everything is permitted'', kind of existentialist.
In other words, a sue-fication (*) of the original Hashishins.
(*) "Munchkin: One who, on being told that this is a game about politics and intrigue in 17th century Italy, asks to play a ninja." - Andrew Rilstone  |
| Irennan |
Posted - 07 Jul 2013 : 21:45:52
Assassins are simply people whose job is to kill other people. Their motivations fall in a wide spectrum: they could be killing for money, to remove a threat that would cause damage or death on a much larger scale than the loss of a single person and so on. Because of this, I see no reason why assassins must be evil aligned; if I had to run a campaign using D&D 3e rules, even good characters would be allowed to be assassins. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 07 Jul 2013 : 20:56:46
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Assassin's Creed's assassins seem to be chaotic neutral, their belief is ''nothing is true, everything is permitted'', kind of existentialist.
Yep, this is the reason why I removed alignment restrictions from most of the PrCs when running v3.5 becuase there is usually a case or reason of why it's invalidated. |
| Quale |
Posted - 07 Jul 2013 : 18:52:25
Assassin's Creed's assassins seem to be chaotic neutral, their belief is ''nothing is true, everything is permitted'', kind of existentialist.
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 07 Jul 2013 : 18:30:29
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Snort. Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree there. Especially about that god part. Can't step on something that doesn't exist.
Oh that slippery slope. Indeed agree to disagree.
When t6he Pern series was written, Anne McCafferey receieved feeder feed back. At least one saying Pern could not exist without a religion.
Ms. McCaffery reply was to the effect of when writing the Pern story, there were four religious wars occurring. She decided that religion was not required on Pern.
Well I was never sure of which wars she refereed to, clearly there are many, a few calmer now.
Catholics vs. Protestants - Ireland
Jewish vs. Islam - Israel
Hindu vs. Islam - India
Shiite vs. Sunni - Middle East
Cristian vs. Islam - Croatia/Serbia
Personal beliefs really should not be part of discussion, some believe in a deity, some do not. That should hopefully end that aspect of discussion about Real World and Fantasy Play.
To try to tug to more on topic.
TSR was founded about 1970 IIRC and the alignment system was designed, the good guys and the evil guys. As such the context for the game system is based off that time period. Assassination was then and still is considered an Evil act. In the game rules using poison to kill another is an evil act.
The rules of honorable conduct are not followed.
This of course leases open the question of a 10th level fighter fighting a first level one and the 1st level dies. Was this an evil act because of the difference of skill at weapons even if all the laws were followed?
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| Hoondatha |
Posted - 07 Jul 2013 : 17:42:02
Snort. Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree there. Especially about that god part. Can't step on something that doesn't exist. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jul 2013 : 16:25:02
Anytime anyone kills 'for good reason', there are those that would disagree with that excuse. Assassination is a premeditated act and is therefor lawful, or at the very least neutral. It takes a lot of planning. Killing is considered evil (under normal circumstances, even killing evil beings that had a chance of redemption). Thus, Assassin = Lawful Evil, even if done in the name of 'righteousness'.
This goes for everything every covert Gov't agency in the world does... goverments are evil by definition, since they allow certain evils to perpetuate. The second you start deciding what is 'right & wrong' for others, you are stepping on God's toes... and thats a pretty bad thing right there.
But now I am sliding down a slippery slope... |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 07 Jul 2013 : 12:49:19
Well there are war crimes, however special operations and snipers are still considered evil by the other side. Sometimes from both sides of a conflict.
James Bond clearly commits Evil acts, though a hero to England, the acts of killing are still evil. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 07 Jul 2013 : 08:24:20
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Try the Avenger variant:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a
Which is Assassin, renamed and with 1 (one) changed requirement (except the placeholder spell list).
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I see the evil assassin Prestige Class in D&D as a much more mythical order of assassins, one that actually literally forms a pact with death (in the realms this would be via divine-like rituals to gods as Myrkul, Cyric and Bhaal).
Which does not follow from it in any way, the spellcasting being arcane and Int based.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I see "assassin" in the 2e context: someone who takes money to kill someone else. That is almost by definition an evil act.
One, it's not a part of the mechanics either. There's nothing directly related to the financial/organizational side.
Two, let me rephrase: "someone who makes a living off killing someone else. That is almost by definition an evil act." What the Disney?
Of course, even your own phrasing covers all sorts of mercenaries.
And in 2e mechanics context, Assassin is a kit (Complete Thief's Handbook), specifically including "secret service" types, with limitations Str/Dex/Int and "non-good" (this obviously isn't a career choice attracting particularly nice folk, but just as obviously some LN types fit well).
quote:
The "assassin" PrC is simply a rogue that has specialized in such a way to make them better at contract killing.
In a way that makes them better in any killing.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Alignment was always somewhat based on real world. Contract for hire has always been considered a crime,
Uh... did you re-read this? 
I also love "always" here (both instances, really).
quote:
Military Snipers of course defending the nation. It does not matter the nation and clearly special operations are not included.
Why? They "always" work without a contract? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 23:45:29
Alignment was always somewhat based on real world. Contract for hire has always been considered a crime, Military Snipers of course defending the nation. It does not matter the nation and clearly special operations are not included.
Part of it was to offer an option of playing an evil PC, however that does not fully justify a special class except for the "neat I can do this". Assassin as a option class has existed in prior editions, so it is not new to 3.5. |
| froglegg |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 23:10:23
It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.
John |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 21:45:01
I think the intent is for the PrC to be a more mystical rogue. Hence the spellcasting.
I agree with you on the 'anyone accepting contracted killing is an assassin' part. But its still pretty likely that an organisation of assassins will evolve into a type that supports the PrC on worlds with gods of deeath, magic and very real pacts with very real shadowy outsiders.
To get an edge on the competition, mystical arts are the quickest and easiest way to provide extra capabilities in the field for their agents, allowing better contracts and higher prizes for the employ of assassins guildmembers. Add some pacts with dark entities and you can jumpstart arcane research (assassin guild members are able to spontaneously use a selection of useful wizard spells) making the research, kill and escape parts of an assassination even easier. The initiation rite (murder for its own sake) is likely the first step of the pact with death the PrC assassin takes.
If you remove that part I think a lot of the flavor of the PrC is lost. I adhere to the spirit of the PrC and thus enforce the strict alignment requirements. |
| Lothlos |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 21:34:36
as·sas·si·nate:
murder somebody: to kill somebody, especially a political leader or other public figure, by a sudden violent attack
Snipers are soldiers I agree but by your own definition they are also assassins as they are paid to kill a specific person with a sniper rifle after being paid by another "person" the government pays them. It seems to me that it depends on what side you are on. If it is your countries general, president, ect... that is shot - then you view the shooter as an assassin. If you are the country paying the sniper then he/she is a soldier.
I do not think for a second takes away from the respect that should be given, but they are still in the assassination business.
Having said that; a person could be trained in the mechanics of assassination and be of a neutral or even good alignment. Being able to assassinate a target while leaving "innocents" unharmed could be a good thing. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 20:14:55
I see "assassin" in the 2e context: someone who takes money to kill someone else. That is almost by definition an evil act. The "assassin" PrC is simply a rogue that has specialized in such a way to make them better at contract killing.
That said, I don't see any reason why someone with the assassin PrC's skills would have to be evil. What they really are, mechanics-wise, is a special forces-type person. And no, military snipers aren't assassins; they're soldiers. An assassin would be someone using a sniper rifle to kill a specific person, after another person had paid them.
At the end of the day, "assassin" is a profession. The assassin PrC is just a more martial rogue. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 13:46:45
I see the evil assassin Prestige Class in D&D as a much more mythical order of assassins, one that actually literally forms a pact with death (in the realms this would be via divine-like rituals to gods as Myrkul, Cyric and Bhaal).
This connection can only be strengthened by actual mortal deaths. The first murder seals the pact, allowing an assassin to literally sense weaknesses in targets (i.e. death attacks). This life must be innocent in the eyes of the assassin, as a test of his/her dedication to the dark arts. I might be tempted to have players hear dark whispers of their patron murder deity from then on out, and unable to NOT sense weaknesses in all life they encounter.
Most assassins are slightly unhinged, as all they see in life are weak targets and their foolish behaviour only makes their weaknesses to death greater. They don't discriminate, they just prefer high profile targets that have sweet, fat souls for their murderous patron. This view soon deteriorates into a general disdain for life as the assassin become better and better at snuffing it out.
A good or neutral assassin would be possible if the mantle of assassin is temporary and focused on justice, but sooner or later this general disdain for mortals will manifest as the assassin goades more and more souls into the afterlife. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 13:16:51
Not really seeing 'chaotic' working for an assassin, but if your DM is allowing it, then whatever.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
If you DM allows it for the campaign you shouldn't be getting any grief from your fellow players.
If I was you I'd be an assassin with a code - like Leon from "The Professional".
-- George Krashos
Loved that movie... |
| BadCatMan |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 05:49:44
Try the Avenger variant:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a
Though Chaotic is barred from that as well. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 05:15:09
If you DM allows it for the campaign you shouldn't be getting any grief from your fellow players.
If I was you I'd be an assassin with a code - like Leon from "The Professional".
-- George Krashos
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| Lothlos |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 04:36:08
Our military has snipers they assassinate people to protect our country. Our military uses drones to assassinate terrorists (I am not making a political statement). Just saying that to me an assassin does not have to be evil. I would say that alignment would have to do with the assassin's motives and their targets. |
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