| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kyrel |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 20:54:38
Guys,
I need your thoughts on a balance issue for a campaign I'm starting up. I'm normally not real concerned with balance in the game, but I am concerned with players not feeling that they get overshadowed by other PC's in their character's specialty.
The premise for the campaign is basically that I want to let the players try and play something that you couldn't normally get away with playing in a regular campaign. The result is that currently I have:
1) Young Silver Dragon/Mage 3 (I've adjuste the rules for building this character somewhat)
2) 4HD Frost Giant/Cleric 4
3) Half-Ogre Fighter 5 (as I recall)
4) Half-Dragon/Human Barbarian 4 or 5 as I recall.
The aim has been to create something resembling an ECL of around 8.
Now, here's the question. The 5th player currently intends to play a regular Gold Elf Cleric 3/Mage 3/Mystic Theurge 2 and having the Practiced Spellcaster feat. Effectively this makes him an 8th level character with spell access as a dual Cleric 5/Mage 5 character who casts his spells as if he was a Cleric 8/Mage 8.
Now...I realise that he will likely have less HP than the rest of the group, and his To Hit rolls and Saves might be weaker to some extend?
Am I in your eyes right in my assumption that this is liable to cause some problems with the comparable and percievable power levels within the group? Do you believe a simple fix would be to tell player 5 that the Mystic Theurge prestige class and Practiced Spellcaster feat is out, effectively forcing him into a Cleric 4/Mage 4 configuration, if he wants to continue with this type of dual caster type?
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| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 15:44:16
It also depends on whether you're behind because of hit dice or LA. Monster hit dice are okay, not as great as some character HD, but okay. LA is nasty, because you don't get anything back. So the half-ogre, with half-ogre hit dice is a stronger character than the half-dragon, which is behind because of a host of non-class abilities.
Class also factors heavily into this. Spellcasters, as we've seen, really don't do well with losing caster levels, and rogue/skillmonkeys fail completely because of a lack of their skills. But if you're playing a fighter or other "brawler" character, than the monster hit dice and LA don't hurt as badly. I'd still rather take character levels, but it can be somewhat viable for melee characters. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 14:39:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From what I understand, in the long-run, characters built using 'monster levels' are nerfed, not the other way around. They start out much stronger, but as the campaign progresses, those extra 'real levels' the normal PC has will over power them.
At least, this is what I've seen/read. I haven't played in any games with really weird stuff, but when I look at the mechanics it makes sense.
If level by level XP gain was equal, that might prove to be the case, but starting 3 "real" levels back means that after 3 more levels you will be only 1 back. Plus you have a hp/AC/THAC0 bonus that cannot be beat. Tack on innate magical abilities and you have more than accounted for any level lack. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 13:14:32
From what I understand, in the long-run, characters built using 'monster levels' are nerfed, not the other way around. They start out much stronger, but as the campaign progresses, those extra 'real levels' the normal PC has will over power them.
At least, this is what I've seen/read. I haven't played in any games with really weird stuff, but when I look at the mechanics it makes sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I still say the MT is going to be the weakest character in the party.
NO I'm not!!!
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| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 10:31:50
The elf will be the weakest. Give him an extra level as a cleric for hp/and a spell.
I'd definitely agree that the Dragon is by far the strongest character in the group. At birth he can polymorph at will 3 times per day, so in any tight situation he can change form (and would, of course) into his natural form. I'd suggest making it 12 years old instead of 16. This knocks the breath weapon damage down dramatically, removes the ability to cast wall of fog, and changes the body size of his dragon form to 18-30 feet (big but not huge). If you're thinking that it is not overly powerful for the group, consider the damage capacity of a breath weapon / paralyzation breath weapon every 3 rounds. Its natural armor class will mean it only takes damage by from the most dangerous opponents you're fighting except for exceptional to hit rolls. I'd also suggest starting the dragon character at level 1 mage. He'll level quickly and catch up before long, but for roleplaying purposes, he will have to put in the time to learn spells. I might also suggest he has to specialize in abjuration, divination, or illusion - but that's based more on my views of silver dragons and magic play than anything. For a while he could be learning magic from the elf, making a partnership that could lead to interesting future. He will sometimes seem like the weakest party member, and sometimes the strongest.
I'd imagine that in any major confrontation the party would learn to look to the dragon as their anchor. Leading with paralyzation BW, pushing forward to fight, then pulling back to allow for him to breath cold into the enemy's ranks. With two seasoned fighters and two healers, this group would be a match for almost anything if played intelligently |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 22:05:01
I still say the MT is going to be the weakest character in the party. |
| Kyrel |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 21:47:14
Kentinal. It is 3.5. Sorry, should have specified that.
RAW in Dragonomicon, the Dragon PC is supposed to be something like an ECL 21 character. Everyone in the group agrees that a medium sized, 16 year old dragon isn't in any way comparable to something like a 21st lvl. character. It's ridiculous.
The character does have the most HP in the group, and some of the best saves. But since the character will be in Human form most of the game, some of the advantages of the Draconic form won't be available to the character. The character has been limited to 8 levels of Skill Points, and has been limited in what he's been alowed to spend them on, based on the idea that he's been learning to be a Dragon for most of his life, and thus most of his knowledge and skills will be centered around this, rather than on more Human(oid) knowledge and profession related skills. Feats have also been restricted to something comparable to the others in the group. Essentially I'm not overly concerned with the powerlevel of the Dragon Character. His main advantage in comparison to the others is Saves and HP IMO.
Everyone knows that we are in somewhat uncharted territory here, and that we might have to do some changes underway, if something turns out to be too idiotic.
As for the Half-Dragon and Half-Ogre, I've now checked up on my notes. It's Half-Dragon/Barbarian 5 and Half-Ogre/Fighter 6. Making them ECL 8.
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 21:09:33
I have a head ache trying to understand your party as four.
The way it reads:
Dragon has 13 monster hit dice, plus 3 character (mage) hit dice. Effective level appears to be level 20 in dragon form.
Frost Giant has four monster hit dice, plus 4 character (Cleric) hit dice. Effective level 8.
Not even going to touch the other two of which you are not sure what level they are.
However adding a mere 8 level character to the party clearly does not strike me as a problem it might downsize the 20 level Dragon as a prime player/hero.
More clarity about your home rules clearly would be useful. All of the numbers derived from 3.5, so clearly if using a different edition that also would be useful to know. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 21:07:02
I don't think it's a problem. First of all, Practiced Spellcaster only works for one class or the other, not both. Second, all it does is boost caster level. It doesn't do anything for spells known or levels of spell. So effectively you have an ECL 8 character who only has 3rd level spells, and only one of them before stat bonuses.
Let him take the class. I'll go out on a limb and say that he'll be the weakest in the group. That frost giant would take him down and then look around to see what insect he just squashed. The half-ogre and probably half-dragon would both probably do the same thing.
If you want him to keep up with the rest of the group, you might want to let him take some of the powergaming cheese that makes MT half-way decent, rather than just awful. For instance, a cleric 3/wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice technically qualifies for MT. It's an awfully big "technically," and the old WotC CharOp boards never did stop arguing whether it was legal. Since you're the DM, though, you can hand-wave it. That way the character is only one level and one feat behind, and in return gets limited wizard casting. That's not that bad a deal. But cleric 3/wizard3/MT X? One of the weakest builds in the game. |
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