| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 12:16:38
Hello all...
I was wondering if any of you fellow scribes had knowledge of a list of undead, creatable by PCs? I was also hoping to get some knowledge of the most powerful undead that a PC can create/summon or animate.
As far as I have been able to find, the Devourer is the most powerful/ highest CR undead that can be created. Where is the CR 20+ undead for the Necromancer to create???
|
| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 22:07:17
Basically I feel you should be able to summon a CR equal to what a conjurer can with summon monster. Is that too much to ask??
 |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 21:44:55
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
For example:
Summon Undead IX
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: cleric 9, dread necromancer 9, sorcerer/wizard 9
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell functions like summon monster I (see page 285 of the Player's Handbook), except that you summon an undead creature.
Summon undead IX conjures one of the creatures from the 9th-level list in the Summon Undead table below. You choose which creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell. Summoned undead do not count toward the total Hit Dice of undead that you can control with animate dead, plague of undead, or other command undead abilities. No undead creature you summon can have more Hit Dice than your caster level +1.
Focus: A tiny bag, a small candle (not lit), and a carved bone from any humanoid.
9th Level
Dread Wraith
Devourer
Vampire* (Max of 15 HD)
Large Bodak (Advanced with a max total HD of 15)
[*this could be abusable (like summoning a vamp wizard) so I'm thinking on something else for this slot]
I don't know, even a 15 HD vampire's pretty powerful for that spell. Remember they get fast healing 5, a 2 negative level energy drain (which also heals it), plus they're very versatile (for instance, turning gaseous to get into areas, etc...). A necromancer throwing haste on one could get a lot of nastiness out of them, meanwhile they're keeping themselves alive via energy draining the party.
That plus the fiendish colossal spider was CR 11 + 2 (CR 13) for being fiendish and its a pain in the butt to use without the space. The 15 HD vampire is basically a CR 17 creature. Hell, with monster summoning IX, you can also summon a gargantuan scorpion which is just 20 HD and CR 12.... or for a humanoid comparison, a barbed devil which is 12 HD and CR 11
I can't stress enough though that the fact that the necromancer using negative energy area effects heals his undead should factor into the CR. Conjurors don't get that, and necromancers are built for it. The CR of any summon undead spell should probably be less than 11 to take that into account. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 21:19:43
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I just think that the Summon Undead spell line should follow the Summon Monster line in power and versatility. So there should be no hit cap of HD summonable undead like there is no limit like that of the Level +1 HD of the Summon Undead.
Summon Monster IX, which you get at level 17 or 18 enables the caster to summon a 32HD colossal spider.
Why is the Summon Undead not like the Summom Monster version? Is a CR 3 undead stronger than a CR 3 living creature???
Bear in mind, those undead have traits that that fiendish spider does not.
The spider gets fiendish traits of dr 10/magic (like that matters), fire and cold resist 10 (meh), smite good 1/day, its attacks are treated as magic for overcoming DR, darkvision 60', and SR 37 (ok the SR is good), Poison 28 DC 2d8 str drain
Also, its colossal in size, so in many situations, its base size presents a problem.
the undead gets 12 sided hit dice (but no con bonus), darkvision 60, immunity to mind affecting effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effect, is immune to critical hits, nonlethal dmg, ability drain, fatigue, and exhaustion. Also, immune to any effect that requires a fort save (unless it works on objects or is harmless). Not at risk of death from massive dmg. Also, it can usually enhance itself with armor, which any necromancer is apt to do (this is only a concern for long lasting summons). Also, if the necromancer uses negative energy area effects, he heals his summoned creature. All of this, and we haven't even looked at the special powers of the undead itself.
So, not saying there maybe shouldn't be more powerful undead summoning spells, just saying make sure that you understand that that spider is something that a high level party will chew through. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 18:24:36
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
For example:
Summon Undead IX
You'd be much better at this level developing a magic to summon a particular undead being. Such as a lich or vampire you know of personally. There already exist spells that can do it, just as there are spells that can grab anyone else, but they are of course not easy to come by and are expensive to cast. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 15:46:37
For example:
Summon Undead IX
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: cleric 9, dread necromancer 9, sorcerer/wizard 9
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell functions like summon monster I (see page 285 of the Player's Handbook), except that you summon an undead creature.
Summon undead IX conjures one of the creatures from the 9th-level list in the Summon Undead table below. You choose which creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell. Summoned undead do not count toward the total Hit Dice of undead that you can control with animate dead, plague of undead, or other command undead abilities. No undead creature you summon can have more Hit Dice than your caster level +1.
Focus: A tiny bag, a small candle (not lit), and a carved bone from any humanoid.
9th Level
Dread Wraith
Devourer
Vampire* (Max of 15 HD)
Large Bodak (Advanced with a max total HD of 15)
[*this could be abusable (like summoning a vamp wizard) so I'm thinking on something else for this slot] |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 15:34:20
That depends. But undead come with a plethora of immunities and resistances, so most of the time a 3 HD undead is more powerful than a 3 HD creature. Creatures of equal CR are about equally powerful (as far as the designers deem so, but the challenge can swing wildly depending on party composition).
So summoning a 32 hd zombie is a tad bit more powerful than summoning a vermin of the same HD. Try looking at undead with the same CR as a colossal spider (CR 11), to get a properly balanced Summon Undead IX. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 13:43:38
I just think that the Summon Undead spell line should follow the Summon Monster line in power and versatility. So there should be no hit cap of HD summonable undead like there is no limit like that of the Level +1 HD of the Summon Undead.
Summon Monster IX, which you get at level 17 or 18 enables the caster to summon a 32HD colossal spider.
Why is the Summon Undead not like the Summom Monster version? Is a CR 3 undead stronger than a CR 3 living creature???
|
| Bladewind |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 17:30:04
Your on the right track, but need to heed the powerlevel of the spell a tad more.
The lowest level version of Summon Undead (Summon Undead I) brings in a single medium skeleton or small zombie CR 1/6 or CR 1/8 creature (about 3 or 4 levels below CR 1).
With that in mind I'd allow Summon undead V to summon undead of up to CR 2 or 3, as long as your caster level is one less than its total Hit Dice (important for summoned zombies as they can have tons of HD because of the double HD effect they get on turning zombie). |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 16:18:34
Yes.. But to able to cast Summon Undead V you would have to be level 9 at least. And summoning a CR 5 into that mix will not do that much damage. And when you become level 18 you can still only summon a CR 5 into combat.
But the reason for my last question, is that Summon Undead V have a some CR 3 undead on the list. I’m just thinking that Summon Undead III should summon CR 3 undead and not a CR ghoul. The Ghoul, being a CR 1 undead should be under Summon Undead I. I just don't understand why Summon Undead V have 2 CR 3 monster out of 4 possible. 2 CR 3, 1 CR 4 and 1 CR 5. Why does it not contain the Wraith which is also CR 5. If you can summon 1 type of CR 5 that spell should be able to summon any type of CR 5 undead I think. Or is that too much and why?
I’m thinking of placing all the CR 1 undead under Summon Undead I and all the CR 2 undead under Summon Undead II and so forth. What do you guys think of that???
|
| Marc |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 13:59:34
The highest I'd allow is probably beholder, death tyrant. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 13:05:26
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
BTW shouldn't the summon spells follow CR, so Summon Monster 1, summons a CR 1 so on and so forth? Or have I misunderstood something?
Not unless you want Summon spells to be extreamly powerful. Keep in mind that a creature's CR is designed with a whole party in mind. A CR 1 creature should consume 25% of resources from a 4-man adventuring party of equal value. A CR 3 takes up approx 75% of the party's resources and a CR 4 is almost a TPK. So when you start adding randomly level-appropriate CR monsters into the mix that fight for you, you probably end up steam rolling bad guys.
Not to mention that it completely sways Action Economy in the party's favor. A Solo monster gets 1 round where he can do something against a multiude of targets. Add in summoned beasts and his targets multiply, possible draining some of attacks onto them while not touching a PC. Then, in turn, you have 4 PCs with actions of their own and possibly several more creaters on 1 persons turn. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 12:27:16
BTW shouldn't the summon spells follow CR, so Summon Monster 1, summons a CR 1 so on and so forth? Or have I misunderstood something? |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 21:42:18
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
You can always compare the CR, HD, and the overal spread of the type of undead you want to create and simply use the PHB spells that create undead of comparable strength. Those spell are intended to be used as ways of undead creation for necromancers, so I see no reason to disallow other undead to be created with them, especially if you make up an additional required component that feels appropriate for the intended undead. In this way your Bleakborn, Deathlocks and Hulking Corpse are at your necromancers disposal allready.
I like that idea very much.
Further I have thought about continuing the Summon Undead spell line up till 9th level, just as Summon Monster. Mainly because it fits the character, and to give this very Diablo II-ish necromancer more options in combat. Any thoughts on this idea, or what kind of HD or CR should go into the 6th-9th version of the spell?
Personally I was thinking up till CR 11 at 9th level, so that would include a Dread Wraith or a Devourer. Or a Greater Shadow at level 8.
|
| Bladewind |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 01:45:04
You can always compare the CR, HD, and the overal spread of the type of undead you want to create and simply use the PHB spells that create undead of comparable strength. Those spell are intended to be used as ways of undead creation for necromancers, so I see no reason to disallow other undead to be created with them, especially if you make up an additional required component that feels appropriate for the intended undead. In this way your Bleakborn, Deathlocks and Hulking Corpse are at your necromancers disposal allready.
In addition I think you might have overlooked the epic spell lists. Boneyards or Banshees are pretty top tier undead and probably require an epic necromancer to create. Look at Mummy Dust (a spell that creates 2 mummies as a standard action) and the Animate Dead Seed to adjust the DC to make a similar epic spell that summons a pair of Banshees. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 23:31:19
Summon Undead, Animate Dead and Create and Greater Create Undead can produce a CR 11 monster. I know that there are feats that can make these undead more powerful, but for a level 20 to "only" be able to create a Devourer seems weak. Or am I wrong?
Epic magic yes can summon Mummy Lords, but they suck so hard at epic level, that no one would ever spend an epic spell slot on that spell. IMO!
There are so many cool undead in Libris Mortis, that you apparently can’t produce as a necromancer.... Am I missing something? Or is it just not possible to create a Diablo II- ish Necromancer with the rules that are???
Im thinking Bleakborn, Boneyard, Deathlock, Hulking Corpse... And what about a Banshee?
|
| Diffan |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 23:01:37
From what I recall, PC's can only create undead from a small list of creatures depending on the spell used. The PHB has a list for such spells like Animate Dead, Create Undead, & Greater Create Undead. The last spell creates Specters, Wraiths, and Shadows, and devourers.
The spell chain "Summon Undead I - V" tops out with creating Wights, Vampire Spawn, mummies, and shadows and they do not against the total amount of undead you can control. Additional spells can the be used to make them stronger and more resistant abd Feats can be used fo make then more deadly. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 21:52:51
I thought the 0.3 represents crawling thumb. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 17:52:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Considering that there are approximately 4,843,791.3 types of undead in D&D -- with more coming with just about supplement -- such a list would be a large undertaking, and would require frequent updates.
Does the .3 represent the "Crawling Claw/Hand?"  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 17:10:17
Multiply those 4,843,791.3 types of D&D undead by 1,639,903 magical spells and rituals, then multiply again by a few dozen flavours of dark priests and necromancers.
More seriously ... as either a DM or player you can just comb through your sources while tallying appropriate spells and monsters. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 13:28:55
Considering that there are approximately 4,843,791.3 types of undead in D&D -- with more coming with just about supplement -- such a list would be a large undertaking, and would require frequent updates. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 12:55:19
Try the Epic Level Handbook. There are some VERY powerful undead in there along with the rules for creating epic-level spells for their creation. I suspect you already know this, however. |
|
|
