| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 16 Dec 2012 : 14:25:58
It is always written, that the citadel is used and was built to halt ogre and humanoids incursions from That into the Moonsea area.
But looking at the map this looks VERY odd - why go through the area of the citadel, when they can simply invade from the area of phlan, or directly march against mulmaster etc.etc.
feels odd, or I have missed something ovbious.
Thanks for feedback already!! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 22:03:21
Forgotten Deities - Issue 120... not sure if its what you were thinking of though |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 22:00:43
I'll look up the issue - you can relay the info :P |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 21:45:19
I can't find it...I've relocated so many times I'm totally unorganized. :-/
I remember that there was a tie between Jergal and Spellweavers...and because he was a multi-armed God he was connected to the Thri-Kreen as well somehow...discouraging that I can't find the material. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 20:13:41
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I didn't know thri-kreen had any interest in gods, especially since all kreen everywhere ultimately originated from Athas (which their "primitive" spelljamming forebears departed during an age of high psionics/magic during which "superstitious" gods and priests were disdained). I haven't quite pinned exact dates or timelines on these events, since they hinge around information I lack about the "elders" or "first ones" of ancient spelljamming histories. In broad strokes, I think Athas was once accessible on the Flow, but has become disconnected and isolated from the spacelanes while the crystal spheres have drifted over the millennia like bubbles floating on a river.
Where is this information about Jergal found? Especially since he might (in terms of calendar correspondences) be older than the first waves of kreen migration.
Jergal wasn't worshiped by the Thri-Kreen that I know of...the article about him was in a magazine. I'll look for it...if someone doesn't get to it before me.
That article is also from a Polyhedron. I'll let you retrieve it. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 20:03:13
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I didn't know thri-kreen had any interest in gods, especially since all kreen everywhere ultimately originated from Athas (which their "primitive" spelljamming forebears departed during an age of high psionics/magic during which "superstitious" gods and priests were disdained). I haven't quite pinned exact dates or timelines on these events, since they hinge around information I lack about the "elders" or "first ones" of ancient spelljamming histories. In broad strokes, I think Athas was once accessible on the Flow, but has become disconnected and isolated from the spacelanes while the crystal spheres have drifted over the millennia like bubbles floating on a river.
Where is this information about Jergal found? Especially since he might (in terms of calendar correspondences) be older than the first waves of kreen migration.
Jergal wasn't worshiped by the Thri-Kreen that I know of...the article about him was in a magazine. I'll look for it...if someone doesn't get to it before me. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 19:55:18
Something Is Rotten At The Citadel Of The Raven
By Ed Greenwood
“Of all the lone cities of men in Faerun, none is so proud – or so dangerous – as the one called Zhentil Keep. Beware its reach, even when its frowning wails are far away.”
Alagond, Sage of Tashluta,
A Guide To The Cold North
Year of Rising Winds
Our tour of the Realms continues with the unfolding history of Zhentil Keep – specifically, the great treachery that made it supreme in the Moonsea North; this is the matter of The Citadel of the Raven.
History Of The Citadel
The Citadel of the Raven actually is a chain of ancient stone fortresses, linked by tunnels, low walls, and high stone bridges. Stone ravens were carved on its battlements, facing north (hence its name), and it has seemingly always been there and always known as The Citadel of the Raven. It was old when men of the Inner Sea reached Dragon Sea and built now-lost Northkeep.
The abandoned keep served as a refuge for human and half-orc bandits, and several successive bands of them were routed out of it as the human presence in the North grew. Some sages believe the Citadel’s existence proves there was once a grand human kingdom in the North, and that men are an older race than demihumans and humanoids. Elminster and others hold that the Citadel is a remnant of a realm whose people fell back into barbarism under repeated orc and ogre attacks. Today, the survivors make up the “Horse Tribes” of the Ride. This realm’s existence, Elminster contends, proves nothing about the age of mankind or human greatness in Faerun, only that human history in the Moonsea North goes back beyond reliable record.
All the human Moonsea cities had a hand in re-establishing the Citadel. The city governments realized they were dangerously exposed to raiding orcs and ogres. The terms of the parley that established the Citadel as a defensive stronghold called for all of the cities to send forces to the Citadel, and to use it as a base for patrolling Thar and The Ride, where fierce barbarian human tribes were proving increasingly dangerous to mining caravans.
Zhentil Keep made sure its forces outnumbered the soldiery of other cities in the Citadel by sending separate forces from Yulash, and from its own gates. Yulash had been formally granted independence just before the parley, but Zhentil Keep still covertly held the reins of power there.
A dedicated battle-captain, Galauntar Hawkhelm (LN hm F16) of Hillsfar, was elected Captain of the Citadel by vote of all the cities. He raised the watchful Raven of the North banner, and led the warriors who rode under it wisely and well.
Some of the cities sent malcontents and criminals to the Citadel just to be rid of them. These mavericks might have been troublesome, but Zhentarim wizards surreptitiously installed in the Citadel kept order by using their Art to subtly control them. Keeping their powers hidden from Hawkhelm, they also discovered which warriors were spies reporting back to their home cities. And made sure that these stalwarts ended up amid the battle casualties when Citadel warriors fought.
The Citadel’s forces fought well against persistent ogre attacks, and were soon joined by fledgling adventuring bands hoping to make names for themselves. These adventurers served as explorers and scouts. The Citadel’s fame, and good name, grew. Once its true worth came to be appreciated, its ancient, crumbling walls were strengthened.
A Good Idea Gone Sour
Shielded by the strong, diligent patrols of the commonly garrisoned Citadel, Zhentil Keep grew stronger yet. The city grew up, now, rather than out. Even the buildings in which common folk dwelt were tall, some having as many as six floors. They leaned one upon the other, pressed together in rows like so many cliffs towering over the narrow and gloomy streets below. Then, as now, crabweed and lichen grew on the cobbed streets, but there was not a tree to be found in the city.
Since the coming of the Zhentarim, the soldiery outnumbered all other inhabitants of the city. Military concerns ruled daily life; great iron gates were set into buildings all over the city so that key streets could be closed off in case invaders reached the city interior (or, as some have said wryly, in case of a revolt).
Many angry and exaggerated tales surround “the treachery of Zhentil Keep,” and Elminster tells me that, as far as he can tell, the Zhentarim cold-bloodedly planned to seize the Citadel (and with it, much of the force of arms of the other Moonsea cities) from the beginning. At first, the Zhentarim were not strong enough to risk acting openly against all other cities in the region – and later, too many mages and adventurers of power came to the Citadel for such a bold stroke to have much chance of succeeding. As the years passed, many in the Zhentarim advocated holding off on the planned seizure of the Citadel – the warriors were shielding Zhentil Keep itself so well that trade poured gold coins into more than a few laps in the city.
Eighty-odd winters passed, but at last came a time that seemed right. Someone gave orders, and the Zhentarim mages in the Citadel used poison and magic to slaughter the non-Zhentilar elements in the garrison, and then took the Citadel for their own. They acted when a large orc army was approaching the Citadel, and most of the warriors had sallied forth to do battle.
The orcs (possibly aided by Zhentarim magic, and probably goaded into the attack by Zhentarim magic or promises) prevailed in the fray. The defeated warriors, retreating to the Citadel, found the walls held against them. There were caught in the open and butchered.
Galauntar Hawkhelm (gray-haired despite liberal use of potions of longevity) rallied a small number of skilled warriors. They fought their way clear – to become The Knights of the North (see the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Set). Hawkhelm was mortally wounded in the fray, and when night came, the banner of Zhentil Keep flew from the Citadel’s battlements.
Zhentil Keep had planned to crush the armies of the Moonsea with this stroke and render them defenseless. With military resistance smashed, a Zhentarim-ruled empire was expected to follow swiftly. Zhentilar troops set out for Melvaunt, Thentia, Yulash, and Daggerdale.
The Zhentarim, however, had overlooked their neighbors’ wariness and the might of adventurers in the area. The majority of Melvaunt’s troops, brought to the field to resist the orcs, marched east in good order, heading home.
Cormyr sent troops to Daggerdale, and Sembia sent mercenaries and much coin to Hillsfar, intending to stop Zhentil Keep from simply rolling over the Dalelands.
Various lone mages and adventuring bands administered sharp defeats to Zhentilar troops all around the Moonsea shores.
Several Zhentarim mages operating undercover in Sembian cities were suddenly unmasked and very publicly dismembered; it was made clear that their identities and activities had been known for some time.
Zhentil Keep suddenly learned prudence, and a time of uneasy peace began. The Zhentarim fought a few skirmishes around Yulash and Voonlar to remind everyone that Zhents were too powerful to trifle with, ignore, or try to blockade. However, they ceased to depend on open warfare to achieve their ends and established extensive networks of often-unwitting agents to further their aims and interests. Their new policy depended on corruption and local domination by mages.
Little is known of the internal politics of the Zhentarim at this time. Elminster was occupied with other matters (traveling extensively about the planes, I gather) and was absent from the Inner Sea lands for much of the time. The fledgling local organization of Harpers were kept busy protecting common folk from the depredations of Zhentilar soldiers and Zhent-sponsored orc raiding bands. Perhaps more will be said of this dark time later.
Recent History
Thirty or so winters ago, Harlshoon, a warrior of renown, became First Lord of Zhentil Keep. His chief rival among the city’s Lords was Calkontor, a skilled mage.
Harlshoon’s sons, Asmuth and Manshoon, were a pair of ruthless, depraved “swashblades” who terrorized the common folk with cruel pranks and destructive roistering. Their chief friend and companion in this was Chess, son of Calkontor.
Both Harlshoon and Calkontor sent their sons forth into the world (armed with swords and much gold) to learn its ways and prove themselves.
Then the sons were gone, Calkontor poisoned Harlshoon and then taunted the dying Lord, who mastered his weakening body enough to stun Calkontor with a hurled chair. Harlsoon threw his dazed rival from a high window to his death on the cobbles far below. Thus both Lords passed, and lesser Lords, the mage Theilon Greencloak and the priest Ulsan Baneservant, came to power.
Far away, the journeying Lord-Princes (this is the Zhentish title for a Lord’s heir who has not yet come to power) came upon a barrow-tomb which their lore readings told them would hold, among other things, a magical blade of great power. Unfortunately for the Lord-Princes, three Harpers were spending the night inside the tomb. They were seeking the sword, too, and planned to take it with all due ceremony so as not to despoil the tomb. In the battle that followed, Asmuth was blinded, Manshoon’s right hand was blow away into nothingness when he hastily snatched up the sword. Chess, unharmed, fled with his companions into the night. Asmuth was all but helpless and had to be led on his mount.
Manshoon was crippled himself, however, and could no longer hold a blade. He resolved to master magic, having seen its power in play at the tomb.
Chess, Asmuth, and Manshoon wandered until one night they found an encamped company of adventurers. Most lay asleep. The three Zhents overcame the watch and slaughtered the hapless adventurers. Among their gear, Manshoon found a wand and a spellbook. He soon traded the wand for regeneration magic for his hand, but secretly kept the spell book.
After a few more dangerous brigands like adventures, the Zhents began the long trip home, and in an inn still far from the Moonsea learned of the deaths of their fathers. Manshoon resolved to dispose of his brother before they reached Zhentil Keep, and managed to arrange Asmuth’s fatal fall into a gorge from a narrow bridge one misty morning.
Other events had unfolded in their absence. The Masked Wizards of Ankhalus (a brotherhood of evil mages who dwelt in a small keep in Thar) had attacked several Zhentarim, and Theilon Greencloak had led the Zhentarim in a retaliatory attack.
The Battle of the Masks ensued, in which both sides perished to a man, destroyed by the magics they had released. The Citadel Ankhalus was reduced to a smoking ruin – and in Zhentil Keep, the Lord Ulsan was left alone holding power, the other Lords thoroughly terrified of his cold, depraved cruelty and the power of the priesthood he commanded.
When Chess and Manshoon returned to the city, priests promptly tried to assassinate them (on Ulsan’s orders). Good fortune and Manshoon’s emerging magic saved them.
Manshoon struck back. In a hasty scheme with a childhood friend, Fzoul Chembry (now a high-ranking priest of Bane), Manshoon overthrew and slew Ulsan. Mindful of his exposed position at the pinnacle of power in Zhentil Keep, Manshoon set about organizing a secret organization that would support him and hold his rule over Zhentil Keep secure. Many priests of Bane joined this network, against the will of the then current High Imperceptor of Bane, who was ultimately forced to flee the city and go into hiding to save his own life. Many Zhent wizards who lacked power and scruples also joined.
Manshoon cold-bloodedly played off the wizards, one against another, and used knowledge and items they in their adventures to further his own researches, so that he always maintained his own might-of-Art at a higher level of power than the other wizards in the organization.
Manshoon also arranged a secret alliance to defend himself against treachery from within his organization. This deal was with Xantriph, a beholder who inhabited a magically levitating hollow rock that floated above the wilderlands south of Zhentil Keep. The rock became known as The Temple In The Sky. There Xantriph spoke to Bane worshippers (who came riding hippogriffs, or worse) as The Voice of Bane directing them to do whatever Manshoon desired. (The god Bane, amused and intrigued, raised no hand against this.)
The floating Temple became a base for Zhentilar patrols and for a network of men and small skulking creatures that Xantriph established to spy upon Zhentil Keep’s citizens, including the priesthood of Bane and the ranks of the Zhentarim. Xantriph in turn reported interesting findings to Manshoon, and he was quick to remove serious threats and rivals when alerted by the eye tyrant.
Xantriph was ultimately slain by The Knights of Myth Drannor and replaced in the Temple by a lesser beholder, Xulla. Manshoon allied himself with another beholder, Manxam, who became his spymaster and co-conspirator. Manxam is said to be younger, but far wiser than Xantriph was, and is said to have become the true power in Zhentil Keep.
Today, Zhentil Keep is firmly in the grip of the Zhentarim (despite rebellious tendencies on the part of some of the now-powerless Lords of the city). The Zhentilar armies have become soldiers of the Zhentarim; they are loyal to the brotherhood rather than to the city. The head of the Dark Network of the Zhentarim, the archmage Manshoon, id First Lord of Zhentil Keep and rules the Council of Lords with the aid of the High Priest of Bane Fzoul Chembryl, much as Zhentar ruled with the help of Brest long ago.
The Lord Chess has become a cruel, fat, foolish fop, famous for his decadent ways. He often makes jests and executes pranks, playing on his friendship with Manshoon, but very few of the other Lords of Zhentil Keep dare to act or speak against Manshoon or Fzoul in any way. In return, Manshoon has saddled Chess with the daily administration of the city.
Our space runs short; we’ll look again at the Zhentarim next time around. Elminster reminds us to be wary when around wizards; one never knows where a Zhentarim is lurking – or when a powerful sorcerer is simply in a bad mood. Either can be fatal to bystanders (he assures me there is no such thing as an “innocent bystander”).
|
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 19:49:16
ok - the following post is Ed's article on the citadel. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 19:45:09
I didn't know thri-kreen had any interest in gods, especially since all kreen everywhere ultimately originated from Athas (which their "primitive" spelljamming forebears departed during an age of high psionics/magic during which "superstitious" gods and priests were disdained). I haven't quite pinned exact dates or timelines on these events, since they hinge around information I lack about the "elders" or "first ones" of ancient spelljamming histories. In broad strokes, I think Athas was once accessible on the Flow, but has become disconnected and isolated from the spacelanes while the crystal spheres have drifted over the millennia like bubbles floating on a river.
Where is this information about Jergal found? Especially since he might (in terms of calendar correspondences) be older than the first waves of kreen migration. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 17:30:34
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Strictly speaking, the only "original" Realms god (from those worshipped in ancient Netheril, at least) originating from a recognizable "foreign" pantheon would be Tyche (of the Greek/Olympian mythos). <snip> ...Jergal...death god...
Oghma, Silvanus, Tyr, Helm (Heimdall), Mielikki, Loviatar, etc etc are more "recent" additions to the Faerûnian pantheon.
Recent additions I could argue...recently recorded perhaps; but the humans that are now the Eraka always worshiped gods, but there is no record as to which gods.
Jergal is tied completely to the Thri-Kreen...and on the shores of the Moonsea is a population of those beings.
Do we have dates for the arrival of gods such as Oghma, Silvanus, Tyr (I know his date), Helm and etc? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 14:51:30
On the side-subject:
I no longer do the 'pantheon' thing as it has always been in D&D.
I now think there is one group of gods, and although some of them like working together and often do so, there is NO REASON why they wouldn't form into completely other pantheons in different spheres.
Some are smart, and build slowly, and aren't known on too many worlds. Some build too quickly, and although they may get lucky, having too many worlds to 'watch over' means you can't focus on any of them (which could lead to you losing some of your more important ones). Its all a great 'Chess game'. You also have 'recent arrivals', who are used as pawns by the others, and even used as fodder and even nourishment (getting absorbed). Each decision a god makes impacts which paths he/she may follow later on on certain worlds. Some use aliases, while others (usually the more egotistical ones) insist on using their 'real' names (and by 'real' I mean their original form, not their 'True Name' which they'd keep hidden).
The 'known pantheons' are the ones that normally work together as a team when entering a new sphere. This means that after they've emigrated and have started to establish churches they could possibly 'switch sides', or 'go off on their own', or whatever. Each world is different, and as time progresses and situations change, the pantheons shift. Great Sages (on some Prime Worlds) known this, and alternate names get recorded for their gods - this is why we have the odd entry of deities in FR (and most other D&D settings). Those aren't really different gods - those are just other names for established gods (or even gods that never 'made it' in the sphere).
So I've totally ditched the entire 'FR pantheon' thing in favor of my new 'its all the same' way of thinking. Usually (in most D&D Crystal Spheres) there is an 'open door' policy for the divine - if a god wants to try and get a foothold he can commit resources to do so. This normally means butting-heads with already-established gods with BOTH similar portfolios and opposing portfolios, so its a very difficult task. Ao - as any Overdiety can do - had a knee-jerk reaction to the Primordial (God) War and closed the sphere... it became 'invitation only'.
Unfortunately he wasn't wise enough (or human enough) to see the eventual outcome: When you create an 'elitist' organization (FR's god-roll), you invite jealousy and desire... everyone 'wants in'. By trying to keep everyone out, he has made them try all the harder. 5e should begin with Ao standing before Donald Trump and 'The Donald' saying, "Your FIRED!" 
On-Subject:
I used to have a very specific view of what the CotR was like, but after reading Crown of Fire I have a VERY different idea. That book was most enlightening in that respect - the place is more of a stretched-out (segmented) fortified city then an actual citadel. Because of the sheer number of troops stationed there, and the importance of the place to the Zhents (and formerly others), there is a large number of 'support services' available - the normal shops and establishments one finds in any other city. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 00:25:35
The best write up of the Citadel of the Raven was in Polyhedron Magazine - one of Ed Greenwood's "Elminster's Everwinking Eye" articles. Polyhedron 83 - "Something is Rotten At the Citadel Of The Raven." Since then references to it have just been referring to that article or making up new history following that article. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 23:23:08
Strictly speaking, the only "original" Realms god (from those worshipped in ancient Netheril, at least) originating from a recognizable "foreign" pantheon would be Tyche (of the Greek/Olympian mythos). Perhaps also Mystryl/Selûne/Jannath if you prefer a Triple Goddess association. Amaunator, Talos, Jergal, and Jannath are generic sun/sky/storm god, death god, and earth/nature goddess archetypes, comparable to numerous deities but unique enough to have no obvious equivalent. Sadly, the Realms are not home to any classic Fates/Norns three-hags deities, although various primordials and lesser divinities which are liberally stolen from our mythologies sometimes make cameo guest-star appearances in the canon.
Oghma, Silvanus, Tyr, Helm (Heimdall), Mielikki, Loviatar, etc etc are more "recent" additions to the Faerûnian pantheon. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 22:54:17
In truth, there is no fact-found basis for my opinion about the Celtic pantheon. It is only a line of thought really...but the fact that so much Celtic influence is in the Forgotten Realms as a whole (along with Finnish) makes me feel that perhaps their pantheon began in the FR and that they would have been a sponsor to early humans.
Silvanus especially seems to have deep roots in the Forgotten Realms, but even more than him, Oghma seems to have very deep ties in the FR. |
| Quale |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 22:07:07
I didn't know there are celtic influences in the region. It's possible, the Celtic pantheon is one of the three most influential pantheons in the multiverse. They're on many worlds. In the Talfiric campaign I also had Goibhniu as Gond (Gray's idea, and Lathander-Belenos, Tempus-Crom). |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 17:25:56
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I don't like the trend in FR where human civilizations all owe their inventions to nonhumans, as if they couldn't develop at least once on their own. Netheril (elves, sarrukh), Imaskari (batrachi, fey), Calimshan (genies), that first civilization from Realms of Elves (dragons), Citadel of the Raven (giants) ...
The same is with Azlanti (aboleths), or pyramids (aliens).
In my own ideas, the Citadel of the Raven was in fact built by humans with no help/direction from other races. It is hard to call a race of humans a "creator race" when most people essentially say their civilization (human that is) is built upon the scraps left by other races.
I've considered the fact that the Celtic gods have such a heavy influence in Faerun, but I've come to the "conclusion" that they originated not on earth but as a pantheon in Faerun first...and THEN went to earth after.
Math (the Wizard, not the application) may have originally lived in Faerun and have guided the Eraka in the construction of the Citadel of the Raven by his teachings. Because Oghma and Silvanus are both not only present in the Forgotten Realms...but very powerful (as well as the Master of the Hunt having been present); it isn't entirely unlikely that some of the Celtic Heroes might have existed in Faerun and their legends simply were carried to earth.
Goibniu, to me, is Gond...though it is a stretch I suppose; the way to actually pronounce that word sounds like "gov-nu"; but other ways of saying the name could inflect a "d" sound to a hearer...eventually leading to Gond...especially as his Welsh name is Gofannon the Son of Don. As the wizard Math was supposed to be the brother of Don (a female I might add!)...that would place Math in the Forgotten Realms to teach the Eraka.
Long stretch yes...but conjecture is all you have sometimes.
I won't bother to mention that Math was supposed to keep his feet in the lap of a virgin or he would die...that just starts in a whole new direction! |
| Quale |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 08:24:45
I don't like the trend in FR where human civilizations all owe their inventions to nonhumans, as if they couldn't develop at least once on their own. Netheril (elves, sarrukh), Imaskari (batrachi, fey), Calimshan (genies), that first civilization from Realms of Elves (dragons), Citadel of the Raven (giants) ...
The same is with Azlanti (aboleths), or pyramids (aliens). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 15:15:27
Dalor, lets not be so judgemental - not everyone knows the lore as well as we do. Far be it for us to descry someone's posting due to ignorance of the setting.
And there were at least two kingdoms of Ostoria - that mush can be discerned by the published lore (because not only do we have the Kingdom of Jhothûn, but we have some major continuity snafus regrading the giants).
So now read up, and catch up. The Realms are fun, and very big - all sorts of things go on that aren't necessarily published in books. The giants are alive and well, and just waiting to rise again.  |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 14:40:42
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
[quote]Originally posted by Brian R. James
I cannot speak to the Citadel of the Raven, but two "nearby" citadels are strongly attributed to the giant kingdoms of old: Ironfang Keep to the east and Moch-Fanan to the north. But as Markus says, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Citadel of the Raven was originally constructed by giants and retrofitted by humans at a later date.
[/quote
Yeah, Markustay's comments make sense... if 7,000 years after the demise of the Colossal Kingdom, an intrepid group of Jotunbrud decided to travel thousands of miles to build a fortress chain right in the middle of Elven territory.... 
He didn't say 7,000 years after the fall of anything. The Citadel's construction dates to a time when Giants, if not their empire, were still in abundance in the area. Even in "modern times" within the Forgotten Realms there are many hundreds of giants/giant-kin in the area of the Dragonspine Mountains, Thar, Desertsmouth Mountains and etc.
Fire Giants in the Flaming Tower
Frost Giants in the Dragonspines
Hill Giants all over the place (even in Zhentil Keep)
Stone Giants in the Desertsmouth Mts
Ogres all over Thar (and these are descended from a highly advanced ogre civilization)
So, it wouldn't be impossible for giants to have constructed the place at all. I think human hands built the place...but not for fact that it was so...even in canon it is speculation and not fact. |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:09:19
[quote]Originally posted by Brian R. James
I cannot speak to the Citadel of the Raven, but two "nearby" citadels are strongly attributed to the giant kingdoms of old: Ironfang Keep to the east and Moch-Fanan to the north. But as Markus says, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Citadel of the Raven was originally constructed by giants and retrofitted by humans at a later date.
[/quote
Yeah, Markustay's comments make sense... if 7,000 years after the demise of the Colossal Kingdom, an intrepid group of Jotunbrud decided to travel thousands of miles to build a fortress chain right in the middle of Elven territory.... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 18:23:19
Given the time frames involved, any one group having been there does not preclude any other group having been there. In 30+ thousand years everything from Drow to Beholders to Treants might have used it at some point.
One of the most basic premises of the Forgotten Realms is that every civilization is built atop the 'bones' of other civilizations, ad infinitum. No matter how deep you dig, you don't just find answers, you find more questions.
For instance, Gnoll Mummies. Gnoll Mummies are cool. This setting needs more Gnoll Mummies.  |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 16:24:06
I like the idea that humans took it and then fitted it for their own use.
The only drawback to that line, for me, is that the fortifications are more pronounced north and east. That too could have been human work of course.
However, the Thri-Kreen worship of Jergal brings me back to my original line of thought (how the heck do Thri-Kreen have anything to do with the Citadel of the Raven you ask?).
I always pictured the proto-Eraka people as being rescued from the giants and dragons of the area...there is a particular Celtic god that could have done that, as in our world he is a tamer of serpents and a foe of giants (as all good Celt gods are!). That god could have brought the other celtic gods with him...and thus we have many represented in the Forgotten Realms with a real powerbase of original worship in and around the Heartlands.
Arawn, the god of the dead, might have struggled against the Thri-Kreen fella Jergal and lost...giving Jergal his power and influence...which eventually spread to the Netherese.
There is a lot more to that...but it was a thought I had.
Back to the citadel, I think it could have been a giant holding, that was then taken by the ancestors of the Eraka when they were freed from giant rule and used much like a "Helm's Deep" fortress by them after that. |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 05:54:23
I cannot speak to the Citadel of the Raven, but two "nearby" citadels are strongly attributed to the giant kingdoms of old: Ironfang Keep to the east and Moch-Fanan to the north. But as Markus says, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Citadel of the Raven was originally constructed by giants and retrofitted by humans at a later date. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 03:55:36
As some folks are fond of saying "size doesn't matter". I, of course, never believed a word of that, but in the case of 'ancient ruins/etc' it could be at least partially true. Take the Darkhold, for instance. Human keep, right? Actually, it was built by giants and retro-fitted for all manner of creatures, most recently Zhents.
So yeah, a city/fortress/temple/whatever/ built some 10-30 thousand years ago may have had VERY different proportions then it does today.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Hey MT, do you remember where you might have first thought the Dracorage Mythal was cast within the Citadel of the Raven?
In one of the stories in Realms of the Elves - probably the first one. Its the one where the Dracorage Mythal is first constructed.
The Elven Mage that had acquired the dragon books (that had given her insight into their nature) had 'hid away and studied' for years and years, far from the dragon civilizations, in some secluded refuge. IIRC it also said she headed 'north' (and I assume north was a good way to go to get away from dragons, because thats where giants live/lived).
I just thought, when I first read that, that maybe she found other like-minded folk (human and elves) who may have helped her, and even built a massive citadel-city to not only keep the knowledge and experimentation safe, but also act as a 'university' of sorts for those learning about and helping on the project (since at that time, the dragons subjugated all sentient species regardless of race).
I rather liked that idea, until I heard it was somehow over-written by the Dragon series (which I didn't bother to read - dragons bore me). Thats the problem with this setting, you never get to play with any of the toys before some writer comes along and breaks them on you. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 03:33:48
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
I tend to think that the Citadel of the Raven was built by the Giant races as a watchtower against the Dragons whose main nations I thought were in the West.
I thought about that too...except that its primary fortifications point north and east...with lesser fortifications pointing south and west. Then there is also the fact that it was built (by all descriptions I can find) for humanoid sized creatures. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 03:28:25
I tend to think that the Citadel of the Raven was built by the Giant races as a watchtower against the Dragons whose main nations I thought were in the West.
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 18:32:51
Hey MT, do you remember where you might have first thought the Dracorage Mythal was cast within the Citadel of the Raven? |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 18:20:33
Following on Markus's comment, has anyone read Blood Wood, the Earthdawn supplement? Great (and very creepy) supplement about a horror-tainted (in more than one way) forest. If I really wanted to place a forest barrier between me and hordes of ogres, I'd do something like that. There obviously wouldn't be any blood elves, but the rest is totally doable if the elves got sufficiently angry. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 16:50:09
Very interesting - you can really paint that lore to be rather dark. Suppose someone fell asleep inside that forest, only to wake-up and find themselves stuck to the ground? The flora not only grows insanely quick, but it also 'takes' whatever it needs to do this growing. You could find yourselves permeated with hundreds of tiny 'roots' growing up through your clothing. Someone could find a person's remains and think they've been dead for centuries (going by the condition), only to find it was a person that only disappeared a few days ago.
As for the Citadel of the Raven, I had at one time thought it was the same citadel wherein the Dracorage Mythal was cast, but I have since heard that the YoRD series nerfed that. Ah, well.. it would be nice if authors would learn to link stuff to previous lore, instead of constantly creating their own (creating new material is good, but it is over-done when everything is new and nothing links it to FR's past). |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Dec 2012 : 22:06:12
Looking back a bit, I see that some of my "information" about the Quivering Forest is of my own make while compiling "The Ride" project I sputter around with now and again.
I simply took the fact that elves lived within the Quivering Forest, as well as its ability to quickly become a shadow filled forest...and viola! I created a dark and dangerous forest that the Ogres would rather not enter when they could more simply round the Dragonspines and fall on the lands from the gap between those mountains and the Border Forest.
Obviously the Quivering Forest can't stop all out assaults...as Phlan has fallen many times...and on at least two dates the forest has been all but ignored as armies fell upon Myth Drannor to crush it and later Zhentil Keep as well. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 16 Dec 2012 : 20:28:19
Aha, thanks. That's the great thing about the Realms. You can know it really well, and still find fun new stuff any time. |
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