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Partial writeup - Pre-Zanassu Selvetarm

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[quote][i]Originally posted by TobyKikami[/i]
[br]I was doing up some background for a fic I�m working on, and came up with this. Not sure how much use it�ll be, but maybe someone can use it for a time-travel campaign or something. It�s partly in the Demihuman Deities format and uses the Great Wheel cosmology; some information from there is repeated. Without further ado, may I present my take on Selvetarm the bitter teenager who is about to get in over his head.

[center][b]Selvetarm[/b]
The Forestborn, the Spider that Waits, the Patient Wanderer
Demipower of Limbo
Chaotic Neutral[/center]

Portfolio: Drow warriors
Domain Name: n/a
Allies: Eilistraee, Targus
Foes: Vhaeraun, Shevarash, Fenmarel Mestarine
Symbol: Crossed sword and mace overlaid with a spider.

Selvetarm was the youngest member of the drow pantheon, and also the youngest of the elven gods as a whole, though at no point was he counted a member of the Seldarine. Prior to the slaying of Zanassu and his subsequent fall into evil and subjugation, Selvetarm was the sole neutral member of a pantheon full of extremes.

In this period, Selvetarm drew the bulk of his followers from drow who broke from the worship of older and more powerful gods (even, on some occasions, those who felt out of place among the followers of Eilistraee). Though he did not possess the portfolio of half-drow (whether the other half was human or elven), he drew increasing numbers of them to his worship and may have intended to acquire it in the future. Since his father was Vhaeraun (who might be considered half-drow himself, if his descent from Corellon was more widely known and acknowledged) and his mother was the elven goddess Zandilar, this would not have been out of place.

Selvetarm�s worshippers were largely nomadic, and could be found both in the Underdark and on the surface. On the surface, they frequented forests for both practical and religious reasons � they afforded protection from the sun and numerous hiding places (as long as they chose locales that were not already occupied by hostile elves), and legend had it that Selvetarm was birthed in the heart of the Yuirwood, to which Bast had conveyed the dying Zandilar before the two goddesses merged. Hence, he bore the title of Forestborn; this title was later abandoned once his remaining worshippers who did not take him for Zanassu consisted primarily of those who cared little for the surface world, let alone for its plant life.

Blunt and forthright when he chose to speak, when angered Selvetarm could slip into sarcastic courtesy or fly into a violent rage. He also entered these rages for no obvious reason, during which he cursed his lot; mercifully, such fits tended to pass quickly. He often seemed almost as grim as Shevarash, laughing rarely besides in battle triumph. As cynical and embittered as he was, Selvetarm sometimes fooled onlookers into thinking he knew more of the ways of the world than he actually did; in this respect, he also fooled himself. Yet he retained dreams that he might somehow better his fate, and recent developments gave those dreams opportunity to multiply before being rudely dashed.

Selvetarm possessed no permanent realm, tending to roam Limbo with his petitioners in tow. This sometimes brought him into conflict with the pair of elven deities who inhabited Fennimar. He bore a lasting grudge against Fenmarel Mestarine, who had turned him away from Fennimar early in his life when he imagined a god of outcasts would take him in. He also fought numerous inconclusive battles with Shevarash, whose followers continued to hunt his in the absence of anything explicitly forbidding it; he despised the fact that Shevarash hated him solely because of his blood, when he had come into existence long after the battle lines were already drawn. He had little regard for the Seldarine in general, taking the sour-grapes position that if they didn�t want him neither did he.

Elsewhere in Limbo he was sometimes found in Battle Garde, enjoying the hospitality of the greater power Targus (who would later become known as Garagos). Targus had taken a liking to the younger god, and considered him a shield companion as well as a potential prot�g�; at this point, both were far more stable in temperament than they would later become. As of late he was also often seen in the company of his aunt Eilistraee, mirrored by a growing rapport between their respective faiths that included mutual aid against one another�s enemies and the followers of Eilistraee vouching for those of Selvetarm to prevent some of the unnecessary conflicts in which they were too often embroiled. After leaving the care of Sharess, Selvetarm paid little mind to her as she in turn paid little to him, but retained enough familial regard for her that his loathing for Vhaeraun began largely on her behalf (part of this loathing was also due to the knowledge that had Vhaeraun succeeded in his intentions toward Zandilar, Selvetarm would likely have died with her). He was largely unfamiliar with Lolth, considering her neither ally nor foe when he thought of her at all, and had no inkling of her growing interest in him.

[b]Avatar[/b]
Selvetarm�s avatar appeared as a young and handsome drow male � so young that he sometimes seemed barely out of adolescence � who took after his parents in both looks and dexterity. He was clad in red and increasing amounts of silver, and often had numerous spiders crawling about his feet. His hair had begun to appear longer in imitation of the idolized Lady Silverhair, though it remained bound in a varying number of braids. He usually carried a longsword and heavy mace, called the Venomace and the Blade of Open Combat (Thalack�velve, more succinctly, in Drow), though he could wield any melee weapon he chose and often carried several such about his person. Such weapons were often treated with his own venom, and when needed he could deliver it from the source with a bite.

[b]The Church[/b]
At this point, there was less emphasis on Selvetarm�s association with spiders, which would later be one of the factors in bringing him considerable grief. While the appearance of spiders was seen as a sign of his favor, especially when they bore red markings, he was far more blas� about their destruction than Lolth. Other signs included silver-bark, rogue stones, and webstone. Signs of displeasure included the inexplicable shattering of weapons and armor.

Selvetarm�s clergy had little in the way of formal ranking. Senior priests in a given band often had charge of one or more novices; given their violent lives, it was wise to prepare successors, and quiet retirement was rare. When two senior priests met and disputed, rank was generally determined by superiority in combat. Sometimes, when tempers ran high, such matches became lethal.

[b]Dogma[/b]
War is the ultimate expression of individual power, and only through battle and death can one realize the respect of one's comrades. Hone fighting skills constantly and teach those who will follow into the fray. Afford only as much respect to others as they afford to you. Patience is good as long as it does not stagnate into passivity. There is honor in a brave death, but there is no shame in doing what you must to survive when all hands are raised against you. Cultivate as many different weapon tricks and combat maneuvers as a spider has arms, and never fear that hidden venom, like a secret vengeance waiting to strike, will serve you ill.
[/quote]

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T O P I C R E V I E W
TobyKikami	Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 07:23:50 I was doing up some background for a fic I�m working on, and came up with this. Not sure how much use it�ll be, but maybe someone can use it for a time-travel campaign or something. It�s partly in the Demihuman Deities format and uses the Great Wheel cosmology; some information from there is repeated. Without further ado, may I present my take on Selvetarm the bitter teenager who is about to get in over his head. Selvetarm The Forestborn, the Spider that Waits, the Patient Wanderer Demipower of Limbo Chaotic Neutral Portfolio: Drow warriors Domain Name: n/a Allies: Eilistraee, Targus Foes: Vhaeraun, Shevarash, Fenmarel Mestarine Symbol: Crossed sword and mace overlaid with a spider. Selvetarm was the youngest member of the drow pantheon, and also the youngest of the elven gods as a whole, though at no point was he counted a member of the Seldarine. Prior to the slaying of Zanassu and his subsequent fall into evil and subjugation, Selvetarm was the sole neutral member of a pantheon full of extremes. In this period, Selvetarm drew the bulk of his followers from drow who broke from the worship of older and more powerful gods (even, on some occasions, those who felt out of place among the followers of Eilistraee). Though he did not possess the portfolio of half-drow (whether the other half was human or elven), he drew increasing numbers of them to his worship and may have intended to acquire it in the future. Since his father was Vhaeraun (who might be considered half-drow himself, if his descent from Corellon was more widely known and acknowledged) and his mother was the elven goddess Zandilar, this would not have been out of place. Selvetarm�s worshippers were largely nomadic, and could be found both in the Underdark and on the surface. On the surface, they frequented forests for both practical and religious reasons � they afforded protection from the sun and numerous hiding places (as long as they chose locales that were not already occupied by hostile elves), and legend had it that Selvetarm was birthed in the heart of the Yuirwood, to which Bast had conveyed the dying Zandilar before the two goddesses merged. Hence, he bore the title of Forestborn; this title was later abandoned once his remaining worshippers who did not take him for Zanassu consisted primarily of those who cared little for the surface world, let alone for its plant life. Blunt and forthright when he chose to speak, when angered Selvetarm could slip into sarcastic courtesy or fly into a violent rage. He also entered these rages for no obvious reason, during which he cursed his lot; mercifully, such fits tended to pass quickly. He often seemed almost as grim as Shevarash, laughing rarely besides in battle triumph. As cynical and embittered as he was, Selvetarm sometimes fooled onlookers into thinking he knew more of the ways of the world than he actually did; in this respect, he also fooled himself. Yet he retained dreams that he might somehow better his fate, and recent developments gave those dreams opportunity to multiply before being rudely dashed. Selvetarm possessed no permanent realm, tending to roam Limbo with his petitioners in tow. This sometimes brought him into conflict with the pair of elven deities who inhabited Fennimar. He bore a lasting grudge against Fenmarel Mestarine, who had turned him away from Fennimar early in his life when he imagined a god of outcasts would take him in. He also fought numerous inconclusive battles with Shevarash, whose followers continued to hunt his in the absence of anything explicitly forbidding it; he despised the fact that Shevarash hated him solely because of his blood, when he had come into existence long after the battle lines were already drawn. He had little regard for the Seldarine in general, taking the sour-grapes position that if they didn�t want him neither did he. Elsewhere in Limbo he was sometimes found in Battle Garde, enjoying the hospitality of the greater power Targus (who would later become known as Garagos). Targus had taken a liking to the younger god, and considered him a shield companion as well as a potential prot�g�; at this point, both were far more stable in temperament than they would later become. As of late he was also often seen in the company of his aunt Eilistraee, mirrored by a growing rapport between their respective faiths that included mutual aid against one another�s enemies and the followers of Eilistraee vouching for those of Selvetarm to prevent some of the unnecessary conflicts in which they were too often embroiled. After leaving the care of Sharess, Selvetarm paid little mind to her as she in turn paid little to him, but retained enough familial regard for her that his loathing for Vhaeraun began largely on her behalf (part of this loathing was also due to the knowledge that had Vhaeraun succeeded in his intentions toward Zandilar, Selvetarm would likely have died with her). He was largely unfamiliar with Lolth, considering her neither ally nor foe when he thought of her at all, and had no inkling of her growing interest in him. Avatar Selvetarm�s avatar appeared as a young and handsome drow male � so young that he sometimes seemed barely out of adolescence � who took after his parents in both looks and dexterity. He was clad in red and increasing amounts of silver, and often had numerous spiders crawling about his feet. His hair had begun to appear longer in imitation of the idolized Lady Silverhair, though it remained bound in a varying number of braids. He usually carried a longsword and heavy mace, called the Venomace and the Blade of Open Combat (Thalack�velve, more succinctly, in Drow), though he could wield any melee weapon he chose and often carried several such about his person. Such weapons were often treated with his own venom, and when needed he could deliver it from the source with a bite. The Church At this point, there was less emphasis on Selvetarm�s association with spiders, which would later be one of the factors in bringing him considerable grief. While the appearance of spiders was seen as a sign of his favor, especially when they bore red markings, he was far more blas� about their destruction than Lolth. Other signs included silver-bark, rogue stones, and webstone. Signs of displeasure included the inexplicable shattering of weapons and armor. Selvetarm�s clergy had little in the way of formal ranking. Senior priests in a given band often had charge of one or more novices; given their violent lives, it was wise to prepare successors, and quiet retirement was rare. When two senior priests met and disputed, rank was generally determined by superiority in combat. Sometimes, when tempers ran high, such matches became lethal. Dogma War is the ultimate expression of individual power, and only through battle and death can one realize the respect of one's comrades. Hone fighting skills constantly and teach those who will follow into the fray. Afford only as much respect to others as they afford to you. Patience is good as long as it does not stagnate into passivity. There is honor in a brave death, but there is no shame in doing what you must to survive when all hands are raised against you. Cultivate as many different weapon tricks and combat maneuvers as a spider has arms, and never fear that hidden venom, like a secret vengeance waiting to strike, will serve you ill.
22 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Alystra Illianniis	Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 04:08:10 What Zireal said....Some are even both! Or even full-on gods. Tiamat, anyone? Orcus? Asmodeus? You get the idea....
Zireael	Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 10:42:33 quote: Originally posted by TBeholder If Zanassu was a demigod, why not just say so? He was mentioned as "an Abyssal lord", which is kind-of-demipower, but something different from a god proper with worshippers. The thing with Abyssal or Hell lords is that it's hard to tell whether they are "just" lords or demigods...
TBeholder	Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 21:42:23 If Zanassu was a demigod, why not just say so? He was mentioned as "an Abyssal lord", which is kind-of-demipower, but something different from a god proper with worshippers.
xaviera	Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 06:12:11 quote: Originally posted by Markustay Ah, I figured Shevarash was a fairly new god (I believe the exact date of his ascendance is listed somewhere), but Selvetarm has been around a LONG time - its just that most folks never heard of him. EDIT: Found it - Shevarash ascended in -4070 DR. Thats pretty young compared to the other Seldarine. EDIT2: Nevermind - I forgot he is Vhaerun's brat, not Lolth's. My bad. Still, he had to have been born before Zandilar merged with Bast. I would think that happened long ago. Selvetarm was actually born as a result of (or at about the same time as) their merger. As far as I can tell, this was no earlier than about 200 DR and by 800 DR at the absolute latest, but most likely some time in the 7th century DR. I'd love to be able to pin that date down with better accuracy. As far as Zanassu goes, I think Selvetarm did him in toward the end of his 1000 year retreat and the demon that reappeared in 1292 was either under Selvetarm's direct control or was him in disguise.
Alystra Illianniis	Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 02:51:36 Or he might have been a Tanar'ri that had achieved some form of divinity from their worship (I'm thinking demi-god or minor god at beat, here.) So it's possible that he had simply ascnded. In which case, Selvatarm gaining his followers makes sense. I like the idea of Selvatarm as the first drider- that sort of fits with the idea of his "fall" into Lolth's clutches. Maybe that was his punishment, just as hers was when she was banished. And AFAIK, Sheverash's ascendance happend before Selvatarm was born to Zandilar. Selvie is a VERY young god.
Markustay	Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 18:05:30 Well, if you take into account the relationship between elves and fey (which has never been clearly defined, but there is one), and apply the RAW about subraces - that offspring will only be of one type or the other (which never made any sense to me) - then Selvatarm obviously favored his drow parent over his Fey one, and by RAW, he would be all drow. But that only works if the same rules apply to fey as Elves, and I never really cared for that rule anyway (it is a very non-transparent game mechanic). Also, just because Zanassu was a demon doesn't mean he wasn't something else first. Not all demons are born Demons. Like Lolth, he could have been a 'fallen' Aranea power, rather then a Tanar'ri.
Zireael	Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 10:52:53 quote: Wait, but he's a half-drow power? It's interesting what folk in Dambrath can think of him. Good point.
TBeholder	Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 21:02:47 ...right, forgot he Vhaeraun's. Also, Zanassu was an Abyssal lord, but not a god, so Selvetarm couldn't just inherit Aranea, but had to pick them up on his own. As to OP, there's no reason why he would have much to do with spiders before absorbing Zanassu. Or being worshipped by Aranea, but this most likely was the other way around. Wait, but he's a half-drow power? It's interesting what folk in Dambrath can think of him. Indeed, a curious entity. quote: Originally posted by Zireael Well, seeing as he's a grandson of Lloth and that he's worshipped by the aranea, I'd see him as a spider-drow hybrid, regardless of time period. His forms were described as either spider or spider with drow head. I.e. much like Lolth, but doesn't walk around in drow form.
Markustay	Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 16:24:22 He may have been the very first Drider (and had inspired Lolth to create more). In other words, when he absorbed Zanassu, his formed changed, and it pleased Lolth. Obviously, like all deities, he could assume another form, but that is probably close to his 'true form' now (a hybrid of drow and spider).
Zireael	Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 14:41:38 Well, seeing as he's a grandson of Lloth and that he's worshipped by the aranea, I'd see him as a spider-drow hybrid, regardless of time period.
TobyKikami	Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 19:11:27 Can't think of any off the top of my head, but since his father was a drow god and his mother was an elven goddess, it's not an unreasonable assumption. We do know (according to Demihuman Deities) that Zanassu was the one who was worshiped by the aranea. He was backing them when he was kicked back to the Abyss in a war with Calimshan, which preceded Selvetarm killing him. And then the aranea sat around for a few centuries, waiting for him to call back.
TBeholder	Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 16:05:17 Wait. Was there any lore specifically saying Selvetarm was a drow god before he became Lolth's right hand boy? Because he's also a war-god of Aranea.
Markustay	Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 14:45:10 Ah, I figured Shevarash was a fairly new god (I believe the exact date of his ascendance is listed somewhere), but Selvetarm has been around a LONG time - its just that most folks never heard of him. EDIT: Found it - Shevarash ascended in -4070 DR. Thats pretty young compared to the other Seldarine. EDIT2: Nevermind - I forgot he is Vhaerun's brat, not Lolth's. My bad. Still, he had to have been born before Zandilar merged with Bast. I would think that happened long ago.
TobyKikami	Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 16:57:26 Interesting! That would be another transition point, if he changed from mostly fighting at range to the canonical diving screaming into melee. Although, I always got the impression Selvetarm was born after Shevarash ascended. In my head the timeline went something like: Shevarash was already around when most of the Yuirwood gods merged with the Seldarine (and merged with Elikarashae when that happened). Then Zandilar was the last god of the Yuirwood for a while, until she was absorbed by Bast and gave birth to Selvetarm at the same time. Then again, a lot of that's inference.
Markustay	Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 16:10:13 You've also given me a new spin on an idea I've been toying with for awhile. In FR canon we have a reference to Shevarash long before he was supposed to have ascended. Some of us have drawn the conclusion that "The Black Archer" is actually a title - one that has been held by at least two different beings in the past. I have never really thought about Selvtarm before, but I realize now he would have made an excellent ex-Black Archer candidate.
Alystra Illianniis	Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 06:15:05 Heh, buyer beware.... I like that idea.
TobyKikami	Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 06:09:16 Ah, good points. In a desperate attempt to cling to my original concept, maybe instead of inheriting it Lolth gave it to him as a kind of Trojan horse. "Here, have some spiders, aren't they cool?" That would then give him a somewhat more reasonable reason for trusting her word on the Zanassu thing, if she'd already "helped" before.
Alystra Illianniis	Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 05:36:52 Thing of it is, Lolth herself wasn't associated with them either, until after her banishment by Corellon. He was goaded into killing the demon by Lolth, as a way of manipulating him. It worked. She suggested that it would increase his power, and perhaps win him more respect and admiration from Eilistraee- which he wanted. Thus, the battle. I do like the more neutral take on spiders (traditionally, in most myths they are seen as either sometimes benevelant tricksters, or as wise teachers). Perhaps he might have desired to take over the defunct aspect of Araushnee as weaver of dark elven destiny, sort of like a dark elven Anansi or NA Spider-Woman. If destroying a demon would allow him to take that aspect for himself as a way to win favor with Eilistraee, he might have jumped at the chance. Heredity would not really work in this case, since both Vaerhaun and Eilistraee were born long before Araushnee became Lolth and took the spider aspect (as a Tanar'ri Lord). However, you could spin it as a part of Lolth's web of lies and manipulation, teaching him to respect and admire spiders as hunters and predators. I tend to think of him being more warlike pre-Zanassu, however- perhaps a minor elven battle-god. (Perhaps he was hoping to curry favor with the Seldarine, and Corellon in particular, by offering his skills to their war against members of other pantheons.) Mind, this is just my take, but it might help your write-up more consistant with the lore.
TobyKikami	Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 05:15:14 Thanks for the feedback! My reasoning for the pre-Zanassu spider stuff was that it might've been hereditary (skipping a generation from Lolth) and it would provide another reason for him to think "kill this specific spider demon and take his stuff" was a good idea if doing that would bolster some of his existing aspects. I also liked the idea that it could've once been possible to have a spin on spiders as a potentially beneficial force (catching pests and so on). If this is explicitly contradicted somewhere I overlooked, please disregard the preceding paragraph.
Alystra Illianniis	Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 04:53:14 I like most of it, but I think I'd have left out the spider and venom bits at the end. His association with spiders did not come about until AFTER his battle and defeat of Zannasu.
TobyKikami	Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 19:50:26 Thank you!
Zireael	Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 19:45:33 This is brilliant!

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