| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 31 Jul 2012 : 07:09:06
Fellow Scribes,
In an odd twist of fate, the players in my Earth/Realms crossing and time traveling style campaign find themselves in the Northdark city of Blingdenstone in the closing days of Nightal in the year of the Tankard (1370). They stopped into Blingdenstone on their way to the trading post of Mantol Derith (to complete a mission therein) and, on their way into town, dealt with a series of Duergar warbands (who were working with a band of Drow who just happened to be members of Bregan D'Aerthe...) that were raiding caravans and ambushing messengers heading into and out of the city. They have left some of their members in the city and plan to return to retrieve them after they return from completing their mission in Mantol Derith (around a month from now).
I say 'in an odd twist of fate' for two reasons. First, as I noted before, the PCs are time traveling and, in so doing, following in the footsteps of characters from a prior campaign I ran during the Realms 2E era (before the changes to Blingdenstone imposed by 3E ever came to light). Second, and most importantly, this happens to place them directly in the crosshairs of an imminent Drow invasion of the city...
The players, aware they are traveling in time, but not quite sure of the specific timing of all events in the period, are aware that the city falls to the Drow sometime soon (they just don't know exactly HOW soon! Lol) and are toying with the idea of trying to do something to change events and stave off disaster (if for no other reason than to test whether or not that is something they can even do).
I am aware of all there is to know (in the public realm anyway) about the fall of the city (it's timing, the foes involved, etc). I learned it here! The best information I have ever read on the subject is contained in this prior thread - http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11039 (thank you BEAST). What I'm wondering isn't so much who attacked, when they attacked, or why (I've got all that covered within the context of my campaign), but how that attack likely rolled out and what a group of PCs aware of it's impending status might do to stop it...(so yes Icelander, this question goes out to you! Lol).
Some facts to know when pondering:
- one of the PCs is on a formal diplomatic mission from Lady Alustriel (in the wake of the report delivered to her by Drizzt just a few months earlier - see the aptly named DDOs Guide to the Underdark) seeking to draw the city into an alliance with the newly established Kingdom of the Silver Marches (aka Luruar) and so has the ear of the King and his Council
- the humans, elves, and dwarves of said kingdom have little more to offer other than kind words at the moment as, in my reckoning of the muddled dates surrounding the Hunter's Blades trilogy, Mithral Hall and Nesme were just attacked and are desperately constructing fortifications in the winter to prepare for what they assume is a renewal of hostilities with the new orc kingdom of Many Arrows in the spring - they have been able to spare a small force (50 or so dwarves and perhaps two dozen mages and Knights in Silver) to send to the city's defense, but no army will be forthcoming
- approximately one days march out of Blingdenstone is a small dwarven outpost built in the waining days of the now fallen dwarven Realm that once controlled the area, it is little more than a series of defensive chambers built around a crossroads, but it was constructed at THE most important crossroads in the area - the four way intersection leading west to Menzoberranzan, north to Blingdenstone, south to Mantol Derith, and east to Mithral Hall - the PCs defeated the raiding Duergar warbands at this site (they were using it as a base camp owing to it's strategic location) and control it presently
- there is a mole at work within the city of Blingdenstone, a mole that is 'working with' the Drow of Bregan D'Aerthe, a mole affiliated with the faction of deep gnomes within the city that supports remaining isolated from the world as the 'best defense', a mole that may very well think he is doing 'the right thing' to defend his people by keeping them out of alliances that might 'provoke' the Drow to attack the city (not knowing that that die has already been cast...)
- the PCs average roughly 8th to 9th level and lean in the direction of spell casting might over martial might, they are VERY well equipped and have more than a few tricks up their sleeves - they make a potent strike force
- as to the issue of time travel, the PCs have no idea whether what they do CAN actually change the future as written, or if in so acting they might actually end up making things worse, so they are in a tough spot - that makes them unlikely to run into the King's council chambers (or through the streets of the city, Lol) yelling 'the Drow are coming' as they actually have no specific PROOF of the extent of the threat, that in turn makes a total evacuation of the city as a defensive measure quite unlikely - this will start with a fight no matter what it seems...
There you have it, let the speculation commence!
(and thanks in advance) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 07 Mar 2014 : 17:15:52
Gents,
The ultimate strategic/tactical considerations I took into account in deciding how the drow would attack the city were as follows:
- they would need a way to attack the city both from without (to keep the gnomes bottled up) and from within (to circumvent the bulk of the extremely deadly gnomish defenses)
- the attack would involve forces from all 6 of the 8 major houses that committed to it, but would be lead largely by House Baenre (as they were the prime movers and wanted to bear the lions share of the credit, so would need to take the lions share of the risks)
- the attack would heavily rely on summoned demons, particularly bebiliths (based on canon) - which makes sense as it was 1) sanctioned by Lolth and 2) the drow would be particularly risk adverse about their own casualties in light of the last drow attack on Mithral Hall (from which they were still recovering to some degree)
- armies of demons are very hard to manage, and they don't mix well with live troops, so you'd want a way to have them around only when you needed them and a way to keep their actions separate from your regular soldiers - use them as shock troops/a force of pure terror and destruction away from your own army
- in order to get demons into the city the drow would need some way through the massive system of wards that the deep gnomes placed around it and the army of elementals in place to protect those wards (see DDGTU for details)
- the drow would also seek to paralyze gnomish command and control by somehow neutralizing the gnomish leadership so as to keep the gnomish defenders off guard and stop them trying to evacuate the city in an effective fashion
So, with all of those strategic imperatives in mind, here is the assault plan I came up with.
1) achieve as much tactical surprise as possible by keeping the full extent of your movements a secret for as long as you can - I had this done by having the drow (using the services of Bregan D'aerthe) hire duergar mercenaries to raid deep gnomish caravans in and out of town and take over the nearest crossroads intersections to the surface (cutting off contact with the dwarves, etc) and make it appear as though the city was merely being harassed by duergar bandits instead of something more sinister
2) when the attack did come, draw gnomish eyes (and efforts) away from the real threat by having a small army of dark elven fighters and conjured fiendish spiders begin a protracted assault against the front gates of the city
3) get past the gnomish teleport wards by smuggling into the city a small but very potent magical device (crafted by no less than the Archmage of House Baenre himself) that could be used as a focus to teleport a single being (with a small force in a portable hole) through the wards and into the city - the ideal place for such a device to go off would be near the deep gnomish throne room (as you'd burst into the heart of gnomish command and control)
4) that small force would consist of 5 demons, 4 yochlols and a glabrezu - whose job it would be to a) kill the king and his key advisors while the deep gnomes were focused on their gates and b) open two other gates into the city from within the city itself - preferably in far flung corners of town where you could build up a gated in army before the defenders could muster to stop you (or even fully understand their peril)
5) your yochlols would open the two gates, small elite strike forces of Baenre females would pass through and widen the gates with clerical magics, and then your army of summoned bebiliths (conjured into a safe 'holding pen' in or near Menzoberranzan so they didn't need to be moved) would pour through those open gates and into the city - they would be under orders to simply spread out and slaughter as many gnomes as possible to spread terror, disrupt a retreat, and scatter the deep gnomish defenders
6) once the king and his commanders were dead, the city was in panic, and the forces at the front gates started to collapse, the drow main force could enter the city at their leisure to loot, take slaves, etc or simply wait at all the tunnels out of the city and scoop up gnomish civilians attempting to escape in groups as slaves.
Once I had that plan in place, the question was what would/could the PCs do to stop it? Especially since at least one of them knew an attack was coming, but no one knew exactly how it would play out (as the actual details of the attack had never been explicitly scripted out).
The PCs arrived at the city (stopping there on their way to Mantol Derith on an utterly unrelated errand) after having run afoul of two major groups of duergar raiders. They reported to the King and Council what they saw of the raiders and, being the heroic types, they offered to help the city with their 'duergar problem' not realizing (yet) that it was ever so much more than that. They figured they'd kill the last of the duergar and head out to straight away to attend to their mission in Mantol Derith.
In so doing, they became entangled in the behind the scenes intrigue underway, and drew the attention of the deep gnomish traitor that B'DA had recruited to eventually smuggle the ward piercing 'gem' into the city (the traitor thought he was doing his people a service and promoting peace). The traitor volunteered to lead a small deep gnomish force that was to accompany the PCs to aid them crushing the final duergar force occupying the strategic crossroads near the city.
In the course of that final battle, the PCs discovered a) the involvement of the drow and b) the identity of the deep gnomish traitor when they sprung an ambush against the PCs (trying to kill them all) along with the final batch of duergar. The PCs defeated the ambush, slew the duergar and most of the small B'DA drow force (taking a prisoner or two), and captured the gnomish traitor (without quite realizing why he had betrayed them). Figuring they had solved the problem, they then headed off to complete the mission they had come to achieve in Mantol Derith. However, two other things happened…
1) A certain overly clever NPC wizard traveling with the PCs (who had agreed to serve as a message courier and unofficial 'good will ambassador' to the deep gnomes on behalf of Lady Alustriel) decided to play at being 'James Bond' and used the presence of the drow as a convenient opportunity to attempt to infiltrate (basically magic jarred into the body of one of the B'DA drow) the city of Menzoberranzan to see why the drow were there in the first place…
and more unfortunately…
2) One of the PCs, who was a rabid fanboy of RAS (and all things dark elf) decided to parlay with one of the captured B'DA operatives in an attempt to become 'pals' with them. This lead the B'DA forces, who were otherwise pretty tweaked about the failure of their plans to that point, to become aware that the now potentially friendly PC was headed to Mantol Derith, which just happened to be where a certain charismatic dark elf was concluding a bit of business…
I'll spare the rest of the details of what happened and merely direct you to the story I posted about it all on this thread (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18961) so you can enjoy it in a more narrative (and hopefully entertaining) format! Do let me know what you thought of my little schemes. As I said, I came to this plan in part through the input of you folks, so thank you for that! |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 06 Mar 2014 : 20:00:40
Hello all,
I recently posted a much greater section of the short story I 'teased' above detailing how the attack on the city was handled by the PCs in my home campaign based, in part, upon the advice I received from all of you here in this thread! If you'd care to see how said advice was reflected in the story, and how it all played out, please feel free to take a peek at the thread.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18961
Thanks again for all of your input on this issue (and enjoy the tale). |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 18 Jul 2013 : 03:48:43
After a bit of thought, and some consultation with my fellow gamers/story writers, we offer you all a snippet of our tale for your entertainment! Let us know what you think...
Do I go back?
Karyl hung magically suspended, twenty feet in the air, the great Hall of Miners stretching away before her, far beyond her sight into shadow. Down below her feet a battle raged. Gnomish soldiers and a scant number of Knights in Silver stood side by side in desperate battle lines, pinned into a corner near the cavern's entrance, slashing and hacking wildly. Near a dozen demons hemmed them in – spiders the size of large elephants, leaping forward and back with a scythe of claws and snapping bites. Bebeliths. Loathsome drow-called demons, brought in by the dozen to crush Blingdenstone completely. On the outskirts of the battle, their dark elf allies darted in and out, crossbows clicking with deadly accuracy.
Do I go back?
The words ricocheted through the tumult of her thoughts. In her hand, Darkfell muttered in dwarven. Noror! the sentient sword insisted, Enemies! and tugged at her mind, demanding that she join the fray. She did not. She floated there, staring down in horror, perched on the precipice of doubt. Her eyes picked out bastions of strength, points of light among the harried gnomish and human line. There was the Crown Prince Marktarn, the courageous keystone at the heart of the gnomes. There was Sir Joseph Wyrmslayer, the human battle commander of the Knights, his shining longsword Qualmanthor flashing left and right – wounded a dozen times, his bright armor dark with ichor and blood, beset from all sides but still standing strong, rallying his Knights with every shout. There was Nymara, the servant of Mystra Emma had called to assist them in this fight, fleet and nimble, a blur of silver fur and shining rapier, his voice raised in praise to Midnight as he slashed and cut in his goddess's name. His divine power laced the backbone of the line with iron and was all that kept it from crumbling.
This is not how it was supposed to be!
She was supposed to come sweeping in and call out for reinforcements, brave men and women who would race along with her to save her friends. Mere moments ago she had barely escaped the clutches of Bregan D'aerthe in the twisting passages to the north. The members of that band even now held a few of her Earth-born companions - Emma, Obie, and Nadelyne - captive. Only thanks to Emma's quick thinking – and the jingling chainmail that put Karyl at the back of the line – had she managed to slip away. They were depending on her now to find Wyrmslayer and the others, depending on her to come racing back with an army at her heels as they desperately stalled for time.
But from this...? She watched Wyrmslayer fall back, and back again, losing precious ground. His longsword lashed forward, caught a demon leg, and then Nymara was there, his melodic voice high and his rapier dancing, and it was the demon's turn to fall back. Yet, in that briefest of moments while Nymara's back was turned, another Knight in Silver went down under rending jaws, never to rise again. No, from this fight there would be no reinforcements.
Her gaze drifted south into the receding ever-twilight of the great cavern. Sir Wyrmslayer and the others had not succeeded in the real task they had come here to perform. They had not pushed deep enough into the cavern, had not stemmed the tide of demons that still poured unchecked into the city. Somewhere down there, in the deep gloom, the cursed priestesses of Lloth still kept vigil.
Do I go back?
Back, to warn the deep gnome illusionist Henkala Shadowsong, who even now hastened south with a small force, that no fewer than ten of the spider demons closed in on her position? Back, to try to free Emma and the others snared in Bregan D'aerthe's deadly ambush, though she was alone and without help? Back, to the House Center, seat of svirfneblin power, and on to the escape tunnels that led away from the city and disaster, away into freedom?
Back, and leave them all to die, admit to failure, give up the city, give up the lives of thousands?
We are promised that there will always be choices, she thought with a kind of terrible fatality. We are not promised that any of them will be good choices.
She took in a deep breath and shut all her doubts away. The plight of Shadowsong, the battle raging down below her feet, even Emma and the others – Stars help them all, for she could not. Three battles lay before her that she could fight, three battles she might even win, three battles that would surely lose this war. No. No, the only way left was straight ahead. “Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,” she breathed, and with a sudden rush of will, broke into flight.
Up and on she arrowed, leaving the safety of the tunnel entrance behind. The floor dropped away. The battle dropped away. The cavern opened around her, a cool dark rush of space. She sped south, arcing high into the air, soaring up one hundred feet above the stony cavern floor. The torn red robes covering the riven remains of her armor flared out behind her, caught in the wind of her passing. In her left hand a moon blade, a boon bestowed upon her and her female companions at Selűne's altar in Silverymoon, flowed from her palm in a slash of silver; in her right, Darkfell burned black, blazing with enchantment. She made no attempt at stealth, wrapped in the magical veils of half a dozen spells that kept her up in the air, sheathed her in layers of protection, filled her with a fierce courage not entirely her own, and made her blaze bright to eyes attuned to magic. More than one such eye flicked to her from the battlefield below – she'd been seen. One of the massive spider demons broke away from the mad melee and pursued, skittering rapidly along the wall. She rose higher in her arc, pressing south, and then all at once there it was, far below her, fat and wide and flashing with green and blue and violet light.
The Portal.
It sat on the roof of the begemmed Miner's Hall. There were enemies all about it. Spiders swarmed and dangled from the walls and crawled over the stairs. Female soldiers from Menzoberranzan's First House stood sentry on the terrace and the steps that led to it, swords drawn. Behind them, a dozen undead gnomes, freshly conjured from the bodies of the fallen, ringed it. Above, on the roof itself, a cadre of priestesses of Lloth waited, as she knew they must. One of them must be the yochlol, one of Lloth's own handmaidens, hidden in drow disguise. Even from this distance she felt their combined malevolent power as it rolled toward her. Most fearsome of all, five more of the massive bebeliths kept guard, legs tensed for the springing jumps that would send them hurtling across the room. She shuddered at the thought of their claws closing around her, the remembered feeling of them ripping through armor and flesh...
A whisper of a thought reached out to her from behind and to the left, the skein of a message that just barely reached her consciousness. Well met, Lady Darkstar, said a high voice she recognized. Nymara had seen her as well. Are you venturing to close the portal?
Her eyes narrowed on the massive shape, seething and burning with arcane energies. Through that maw poured the destroyers of Blingdenstone. Through that maw came the spawn of the Abyss. Her response was short, sharp, and final.
Yes.
That was all, and then she had blazed past, the message cut short, out of range, headed on – alone – towards the magical construct, and the drow and demons alike who warded it. Above her heart her mark, the invisible brand all her earth-born companions bore, burned. She had only one star remaining of the seven it had started with. One star to set off in the portal's maw and pray that it would close. If she could get there. Past the spiders and the demons and the drow. Past the Handmaiden of Lloth and all the red-burning eyes that marked her approach, all the hands that tightened on swords, all the minds that reached for spells. A dozen forms of death, and any one alone outmatched her. Her arc reached its apex; she started to descend.
With a swell of magical power two of the waiting priestesses rose into the air, unfurled their snake headed whips, and began to close...
|
| BEAST |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 22:15:39
quote:
Originally posted by Joebing
On the topic of Blingdenstone...
I noticed a few canon issues later as well, in the D&DNext playtest adventure "Reclaiming Blingdenstone". According to everything I have read from 3.x on Mithral Hall, many of the svirfneblin went there, however, the playtest says fewer than a thousand escaped, finding refuge in Silverymoon.
The highest-ranking, immediately known survivor of the fall of Blingdenstone was Burrow Warden Krieger. The largest group of refugees fled with him to Silverymoon.
Nevertheless, the Most-Honored Burrow Warden Belwar Dissengulp, was known to have lived with a group of ~400 deep gnomes in Mithral Hall, by mid-1372 DR.
My retcon explanation is that Belwar's group must've been thought lost after the fall of Blingdenstone, and it must've taken them some time to get un-lost, before finally arriving at Mithral Hall. There is no mention of them in "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy" in 1371 DR, or in The Orc King in early 1372 DR. They just suddenly are described as being there in mid-1372 DR.
There is no further mention of them in other works, so perhaps they moved on?
quote:
Also, it mentions how a century prior, Blingdenstone fell. Now if we say it fell, according to canon, in late 1370/early 1371 DR, this would place the playtest in 1470-71 roughly, which is PRIOR to 4e (1479 DR).
Can anyone figure how this works in?
Someone earlier in one of these Blingdenstone scrolls said that the playtest was actually set in the 1480s DR. Can we verify that?
When we're told that something happenend "a century prior", maybe that doesn't necessarily mean a literal 100.00 years. Maybe it's 110. Maybe it's 94. Maybe it was just roughly a century prior?
Example: In the first few Drizzt books, RAS wrote that Clan Battlehammer had been evicted from Mithral Hall about two centuries before; but when the dust finally settled, it turned out to be only 175 years. |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 05:01:48
Thanks Beast, that means a lot coming from a RAS scholar of your magnitude. ;)
As I said, I'm toying with posting bits of the tale, we've written it largely 'just for fun' - Lol. It was important for me to keep events as near to canon as possible without making my players unable to actually change them. Funny enough, that time stream ended up being a pretty strong current, despite me giving them every opportunity to alter its flow.
Joebing, Beast (somewhere on this thread - or a related one) actually tackles that seeming contradiction pretty well (and lays out the dates). Thank you for the praise, if you decide to use the idea in your 3.5 game feel free to PM me for notes, background, etc. I ran the whole thing in Pathfinder (pretty 3.5 friendly that).
|
| BEAST |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 04:43:58
That was fun reading, Kris! I love how you tweaked the canon lore, but still ended up with much the same results. And even with apparently tragic outcomes, there can still be heroes.
And they don't even all have to be dual-wielding green-cloaked pointy-ears! |
| Joebing |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 04:25:22
On the topic of Blingdenstone...
I noticed a few canon issues later as well, in the D&DNext playtest adventure "Reclaiming Blingdenstone". According to everything I have read from 3.x on Mithral Hall, many of the svirfneblin went there, however, the playtest says fewer than a thousand escaped, finding refuge in Silverymoon.
Also, it mentions how a century prior, Blingdenstone fell. Now if we say it fell, according to canon, in late 1370/early 1371 DR, this would place the playtest in 1470-71 roughly, which is PRIOR to 4e (1479 DR).
Can anyone figure how this works in?
Kris, the adventure sounded great. Might just work something like that into my 3.5 campaign... |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 03:33:32
Beast (et al),
As my epic time traveling 'save the deep gnomes' adventure has just ended (yep, that took around a year of every other weekend play to accomplish, quite a bit more than I envisioned that's for sure) I thought I might update this post a bit with the results of said adventure and perhaps even share a little bit of the story one of my players and I were moved to write about it all.
So, here goes it. What happened is:
- some of the players tried their best to warn the gnomes about the impending threat without giving away the exact source of their information (and getting dismissed as loons or locked away as traitors) - they also dragged certain surface representatives (using their relationship with a Chosen of Mystra, etc) and token troops (50 dwarves and a like number of Knights in Silver - and ultimately even Drizz't himself) to the aid of the city in an attempt to forge an alliance to defend the gnomes
- at the same time, unknown to them, other players in the group stumbled upon the participation of Bregan D'aerthe as scouts, spies, and pathfinders for the upcoming drow assault - thinking they could 'reason' 'negotiate' or somehow 'outwit' the band, they entered into secret negotiations with the band's leadership - this lead to their being fed information on how best to 'thwart' the coming drow attack
- the group spent many a day and night exposing drow movements, blocking drow scouts, discovering drow plots, freeing slaves that were to be used in foul drow summoning rituals and all in all being a thorn in the side of the drow as they gathered for their strike
- at the same time... the 'peacemaking' faction, in the interest of 'transparency' and in a B'DA suggested move to 'show the matron mothers that the gnomish leadership meant them no ill will through their alliance with surface forces' agreed to do B'DA's front man a favor - planting a 'magical listening device' in the heart of the deep gnome Center House - the council chambers
- the drow armies marched (out in the open), the surface coalition fought a desperate rear guard action (inflicting outsized causalities on the drow) to defend the approaches to the city, the players patted themselves on the back for freeing the slaves destined to power a large demon summoning ritual, they even used a scroll taken from a defeated drow master summoner to call a powerful good outsider to their aid - the deep gnomes securely closed the mighty gates to their city with the players and other surfacers locked up safely within to withstand any drow assault...and then...
- the device the peacemaking/overly clever players smuggled into the city (and which had gone missing when they later sought to quietly retrieve it before they attempted to slink away from town...) triggered punching a hole in the city's wards and allowing a small group of demons to gate in...
- the whole group of players (while kicking their overly clever fellows now languishing in Blingdenstone's dungeons) fought a valiant action to track and destroy those demons...but some got away...and opened other gates...and let in more demons...
- in the end, the players fought it out, paid a great cost, and stood as heroes as the gnomes of the city sought time to flee through their final escape tunnels (tunnels held open only through the mighty, and utterly offscreen, actions of one well known dark elf ranger) - many many lives were saved, and the city...well that's a story for another day
All in all, I (we) thoroughly enjoyed the adventure. Hopefully our actions can provide a fitting (if utterly unofficial, Lol) version of the events surrounding the fall of the City of Blinding Stones - better than the treatment she received in the 3E transition anyway. For those interested in hearing more, I'm toying with following with a snippet of the fictional tale. A humble thank you to all the scholars whose ideas on this post guided my DMing plotting and scheming of the event. Sweet water - light laughter to you all. |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 18:06:42
BEAST,
That's the way I read it too, I was just looking for a consensus. Thanks for the input! |
| BEAST |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 04:39:58
I believe the lorebooks specifically said that the Menzoberranyr summoned and gated the demons "into" Blingdenstone. That would point to a formation of drow personnel surrounding the gnome city, and then the demons appearing either right outside the city and then magically transporting inside, or appearing within the city in the first place.
There doesn't seem to be any indication of a longterm binding and caravanning of demons, there. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 19:15:01
That's pretty much my thought. An army of succubi would go on an orgy spree and vamp every male in sight (not that the matrons would care). An arm of bebiliths kill lots and lots of things, and stomp buildings flat. |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 18:24:23
Hoondatha,
That concern for 'keeping the team together' was one my main reasons for leaning in your direction on the 'where's and when's' of any summoning. In the end, these aren't an army of succubi, these are bebiliths (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/bebilith), they like chewing on demons and they are the size of elephants! You would probably have serious trouble even fitting 36 to 72 of them down the passageways leading from Menzo to Blingdenstone. Much better to call them somewhere closer, then open a gate frpm there past Blingdenstone's defenses using an infiltration team to provide the focus for the Blingdenstone end of the gate terminus. It's that, or risk corralling them all in Menzo waiting for their stage cue. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 17:00:19
I was a bit unclear in my first paragraph. I meant the amount of damage the tanar'ri would do to Menzo, not Blingdenstone, if they were summoned there to assemble the army before marching. And while I'm sure the matrons wouldn't care about some breakage, there reaches a point where the death and destruction is too much, even for them.
Let's remember, not even tanar'ri officers can keep a tanar'ri army from tearing themselves apart if they're kept in one place too long. Drow aren't going to have much more luck. Plus, they waste time and resources in the longer version of the planar ally spells (if we're talking 3.5) by requiring the fiends to stay around for days. For some of the less powerful casters, that time limit would actually expire before the whole group could be assembled and the march to Blingdenstone completed. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 16:29:09
I don't think there is any need to cast near Blindengstone. The demons could be summoned and bound in advance, and then gate or teleport in. At worst, they could be brought to the surface, magically transported to be near the entrance to the Underdark over Blindengstone, then do their assault from there.
As for control, the drow have them bound. That doesn't mean they can't escape the binding, but it seems unlikely the drow would even care if the city was destroyed. If they are successfully bound, they have to do what the drow say, though the orders might be open to interpretation. It's quite possible they are being rewarded in some way as well.
As for divinations, there is the issue of faezress, which blocks divination and conjuration magic. Also, Blindengstone is fairly well protected by its own defensive enchantments. The drow could probably find a way around this, but the same thing that works in the favor of the deep gnomes also prevents them from effectively scrying outside their domain. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 14:55:54
In my opinion, the fiends have to be summoned right outside Blingdenstone. I don't care what edition or bindings you're using, but you don't summon dozens, or hundreds, or tanar'ri into any city you don't want levelled. They just don't have the control, by definition.
My feeling is that you'd march your drow army out against Blingdenstone. If at all possible, hide this from the gnomes, but if they catch wind of it, fine, because they won't guess the true plan. Find a big cavern as close as you can, cover it in anti-scrying wards, and then start the summoning. In 3e, each spell takes 10 minutes to cast, which would give you the ability to rotate casters in and out as they exhaust their spells if you don't have enough space for them all to work at the same time.
To me, that casting is the best chance anyone has of disrupting the attack. You've got most of the most powerful spellcasters in one area, but armed with non-combat magic. There wouldn't be room for many guards in addition to the casters and the increasing number of tanar'ri, so the bulk of the army would be keeping a perimeter. If you could get a strike team, or better yet a svirfneblin army, past them unnoticed, you could cause a tremendous amount of damange very quickly, then retreat before the drow could swarm you under. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 08:16:03
Ed's latest book "Elminster Enraged" has demon-spewing planar rifts in the Underdark, so they are possible.
-- George Krashos
|
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 23:55:28
I don't think the technical aspect of the summoning is all that complicated. The drow houses are full of mid and high level priestesses and have a fair number of wizards also. Because demons can be bound, they can be summoned over time. If they really wanted to, and could actually work together on it (cooperation doesn't = drow's greatest strength), they could probably unleash thousands.
Your second question was about logistics. I'm guessing that they are using some sort of planar gate. The demons themselves can probably teleport or gate themselves. Of course, Faezress could prove to be an issue, but the demons could leave the Underdark, rapidly transport themselves via teleportation or gating to an entrance near Blindengstone, and then enter from there. |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 20:54:00
As an update to this thread, I've posted a related 'technical question' over in the main 'General Forgotten Realms Chat' zone. (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17051).
Here it is replicated for your inspection:
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Fellow scribes,
I'm grappling with some ideas surrounding the Drow assault on Blingdenstone in 1370/1371 (at the cusp of 3E) as I've laid out on another thread (for those inclined to offer some advice):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16788
My consideration of that attack has lead me to ponder what method of summoning and employing demons en masse as 'shock troops' for an army over a sustained period of time the Drow of Menzoberranzan might have employed. I know the answers to my questions rely to some degree on the game system I employ but, this being D&D, there are certain similarities that exist across all the game systems when it comes to summoning demons. Those limitations imposed by those similarities need to be overcome no matter which rules set is used (I'm using 3.5/Pathfinder just as an FYI).
My main issue is the method used to summon a 'horde' of demons. It's one thing for a caster to call a demon (or three) for a task, but it is quite another for a horde of several dozen (to over a hundred!) bebeliths (high HD demons to be sure) to be summoned either at once, or over time frames that overlap, and wield them together into a co-ordinated military force (well, as co-ordinated as a 'point and shoot' horde of demons can be anyway).
The source materials (read the above thread for a well researched analysis of them by BEAST) make clear that the combined forces of 6 of Menzoberranzan's great houses (lead by the first house) employed the full might of their priestesses and wizards to both summon and bind the demons in question. From a game standpoint, that means Planar Ally spells (or the like) for the priestesses and Planar Binding spells (or the like) for the wizards. Those are 4th and 5th level spells respectively (for even the lesser versions) requiring 7th to 9th level casters (and thus limiting the number of priestesses and wizards who can participate by casting them).
Their maximum durations are both 1/day per level of the caster for the most complex tasks requested (sacking a city would likely be a somewhat complex undertaking). They also require great wealth for components (nothing 6 houses acting together under the blessing of Lolth couldn't manage) and proximity to the caster (the demon must be called within roughly 50 feet of the caster) to function.
No doubt ritual spell casting could be employed to gin up 'greater' versions of the spells capable of calling multiple demons at once (and possibly extending durations as needed). That still doesn't get us past the time and space limitations needed to pull off the feat. Those demons can't be summoned remotely. You need to be 'up close and personal' and magic of that sort also takes time to cast (the original spells call for a 10 minute casting time).
The Drow assault on Blingdenstone was a massive surprise assault. It overwhelmed the city so effectively (despite it's very effective defenses) because the deep gnomes didn't see it coming until it was much too late for them to organize a defense (or stage a retreat as they had done in the past). That would require a whole host of 'black ops' work on the part of the Drow to blind the deep gnome intelligence network, spoof their patrols, and slip past their wards and patrolling elementals.
The Drow are certainly no slouches at espionage (despite their clear failure to avoid warning the deep gnomes that they were marching to war when they attacked Mithral Hall in 1358...), so one can assume they managed to employ false rumors, turn or capture spies, obtain a mole or two, keep deep gnome patrols off guard, and come up with a way past (as opposed to through) the deep gnome defenses and into the heart of the city (using gates or the like as detailed in the other thread).
However, that still doesn't solve my main problem, how the hell (or how the abyss) do you get an army of demons close enough to the city of Blingdenstone to launch an attack without letting the whole world know about it?
The march from Menzoberranzan to Blingdenstone (for an army anyway) probably takes around 8 days (with an inside of 6 and an outside of 10). Do you summon your demons in Menzoberranzan and march them that far? Or, do you find a spot big enough and near enough (within less than a day) of Blingdenstone, take it with your regular army, blind Blingdenstone's patrols, and summon your army of demons from there?
Each strategy has it's strengths and weaknesses.
My question thus is: how do you manage the technical aspects of the summoning and then get your army in place for a surprise attack? Your thoughts? |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 23:17:03
EB,
It looks like it's set in the 1480's as part of the WoTC 5E attempt to fix...I mean...correct...I mean...expand upon in game decisions from prior editions that ended up being less than popular. It's not quite a re-write, but it puts the deep gnomes and their city back on the map (so to speak). |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:30:23
As I was posting in another thread, it does appear like Blindengstone is experiencing a resurgence. It's the setting for the playtest adventure in the new D&D Next packet. It's still unclear about the timing of the adventure because it hasn't been announced (as far as I know) when the new edition of the Realms will be set (or if it will be set in a specific period at all). |
| BEAST |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 04:32:51
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Josidiah Starym was not "killed off" - Steven Schend is a comic book fan and a big believer in never leaving bodies behind. Salvatore could have used Josidiah easily - all he needed was to use a bit of imagination.
OK, but again, Krash, apparently the way it was explained to Bob made it sound a lot more definitive than that. Apparently, it was much the same with the way that Blingdenstone's fall was explained to him, too. And it irked him so much that he just didn't feel like dealing with those characters anymore. Throw in the fact that 3E was advancing the timeline quite a bit, and his own stories were so many years behind the times, and he just didn't have any desire left in him to dredge up the old news about Jos & Guen.
And when Steven wrote that the fires claimed Josidiah and the Artblade and no trace remained of him in 714 DR; and afterwards no other designer or author ever picked up the tale again, it certainly gave credence to the notion that Josidiah was indeed killed off.
At any rate, I think that if Bob had been really insistent, he should've been able to tell flashback tales of Josidiah's life with Guenhwyvar long before that event, just the same. He gave insight into Entreri's past with the use of flashbacks in Road of the Patriarch, and has repeatedly hinted that he wants to use flashbacks to discuss the shared past between Zaknafein and Jarlaxle. Why not do so with Jos & Guen, then?
Similarly, when Bob was first told that Blingdenstone got sacked, it seems to have peeved him so much that he never got the memo that Belwar was supposed to have survived and moved to Mithral Hall in 1372 DR (Silver Marches). That doesn't undo the fact that the city of Blingdenstone had become unavailable for Bob to use, but it did mean that he could at least continue to use his fave deep gnome character. Sadly, he never ran with that, either.
My whole point in bringing all that up was just to piggy-back off KTG's anecdotal story of an unfortunate coincidence.
quote:
The fall of Blingdenstone was a development of the edition change to 3E. I and others said "Please don't". They did it anyway.
Well, one good bit of news about 4E is that Blingdenstone turns out not to have been quite as thoroughly destroyed as was once believed. It's populated by a whole new generation of deep gnomes, but it's coming back into its own, slowly but surely.
Maybe they belatedly listened to you, Krash.  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 03:10:36
Josidiah Starym was not "killed off" - Steven Schend is a comic book fan and a big believer in never leaving bodies behind. Salvatore could have used Josidiah easily - all he needed was to use a bit of imagination.
The fall of Blingdenstone was a development of the edition change to 3E. I and others said "Please don't". They did it anyway.
-- George Krashos
|
| BEAST |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 00:03:36
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
1) On the time travel element, I'm as much of a time travel sci-fi genre fan as I am a fantasy literature fan, so I spend a lot of time considering the various rules of the genre when I use time travel.
I've always loved the general concept of time travel.
But sobering explanations of how even the tiniest changes in the past can reap huge whirlwinds of change in the revised future have put a very bad taste in my mouth. It's scary to think that you could completely wipe away a whole lot of people's existences by wearing a different clothing outfit, or eating a different breakfast, or taking a different road to get to your destination, than what you did the first time around. How supremely arrogant, selfish, and unforgivably reckless must one be to nevertheless plow right ahead and make those seemingly "minor" changes, anway?!
I suppose that the degree of probable harm likely varies directly with the interval backward in time you seek to go. The further back you go, the more people and other events stand to be affected by the changes that you introduce; the shorter time interval you jump backward, the fewer things stand to be changed by your actions.
But if your actions lead to someone being killed that didn't die in the original timeline, is that justifiable? Or if they led to someone never being born? What if your actions kept a couple from ever meeting, falling in love, courting, marrying, having children, raising a family, and living happily ever after? What if your actions did any or all of these things to multiple people? Even if you could ever figure out how to time travel, what gives you the right to put so many other people's welfare at stake for the benefit of your desire to "set things right"? How dare you make the decision to put them in jeopardy--shouldn't they have some say in it?!
These pointed Q's are not directly aimed at you, KTG. They're just the kind of rambling that goes on in my head when I think about time travel, these days.
quote:
2) On the timeline, BEAST, while I can hardly quibble with the INCREDIBLE work you have done in establishing a coherent timeline out of the mishmash that pervades much of the WoTC material covering the years from 1369 to 1372,
Thanks, mate! I've tried several times to get others to help me to work through that mish-mash, only to repeatedly get blowing winds and tumbleweeds. No one else has ever desired to open that can of worms. That sucks! At least I've tried really, really hard.
quote:
I've chosen to nudge certain events around a bit to fit my meta needs. So, in my version of canon, the events of the Hunter's Blade Trilogy take place from early summer 1370 until early spring 1371
The problem with the heretofore official dating by WOTC of the events in "THBT" thusly is that those particular novels clearly tell us that the events all take place within the same calendar year: The Thousand Orcs in spring, The Lone Drow in summer, and The Two Swords in autumn & winter. There is no calendar year break in the middle of Obould's campaign against the North. Many of the events in the mini-series are described as taking place merely tendays apart from one another. Consider the very specific description of the passing of seasons, and the entire mini-series takes place in the same year: 1371 DR.
Delly Curtie's death, described in TTS as having taken place at the onset of winter, is clearly dated in 1371 DR in The Orc King. So TTS takes place in autumn-winter, 1371 DR.
That novel ends with winter really setting in, and then Drizzt and Innovindil have a brief adventure over the course of that winter in the short story "Comrades at Odds".
The next novel (The Orc King) picks up during that same winter, and we are clearly told that it is now the Year of Wild Magic (1372 DR).
So I'm not sure how you got your dates for "THBT", at all. I really don't see how you figure that as your version of "canon".
WOTC's chronology-meisters apparently arbitrarily inserted an extra year in there because they were trying to force Bob's stories to catch up to the then-current time of the rest of the Realms.
But I have found a better way to accomplish that. Just insert some more calendar years between the novels The Spine of the World and Sea of Swords, instead of right into the middle of events within "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy". At the end of TSOTW, Wulfgar arrives in Waterdeep seeking to join the crew of the Sea Sprite; and at the beginning of SOSw, he supposedly has been sailing aboard the ship for "the last three months at sea". There's nothing significant that precludes us from reading several years of journeys into the interim between the two novels, and interpreting "the last three months at sea" as merely refering to Wulfgar's latest tour with the crew, as opposed to the entirety of his time aboard ship.
However, as always, you are still free to consider or disregard such details as you see fit. Just please don't call the end result "canon", OK? 
quote:
and I date the formal founding of Luruar to immediately before that (with the fall of Hellgate Keep giving a nudge towards it's establishment) making the rise of Obould's kingdom the new council's first major test (one it fails in my view).
(Just as a reminder: the international coalition in the North was first called the Alliance of Silverymoon, with an open-ended request for suggestions for better names, in 1369 DR. In addition to several other options, Old Night recommended the name "Luruar". By 1370 DR, either formally or informally, Drizzt was referring to the alliance as Luruar (DDUGTTU). And then in 1371 DR, the coalition adopted the name "The League of the Silver Marches".)
I actually would agree with you that the rise of Obould did constitute the first major test of the League, and it was one that the League seems to have failed.
I don't believe that we've ever been told exactly when in the year 1371 DR the Charter of the League of Silver Marches was signed: early, middle, or late? But I have guessed that it must've been very early in the year because of trivial details in "THBT". Neither "Luruar" nor "the Silver Marches" are mentioned in TTO, but the Silver Marches are described as being in existence in TLD and TTS. King Gandalug was dead, and King Bruenor was comatose for most of TLD, so neither could've been signatories to the Charter, so 'twould appear that the League must've come into existence some time before summer of 1371 DR. Since TTO seems to take place in the same year as the other two novels, and Bruenor was completely preoccupied with leading his caravan out of Icewind Dale, then he could not have been involved in the signing of the Charter that spring, so the Charter must've been signed even earlier than that. This points to the Charter being signed in winter, early 1371 DR, during the events at the end of SOSw.
I don't know anything about Hellgate Keep. I don't know how those events bear on the rise of the Silver Marches. (Yet again, I will repeat my numerous calls for assistance in compiling all the tidbits of lore about this time period.)
But I would venture to say that the fall of Blingdenstone probably had a direct bearing on the decision to finally establish the League of the Silver Marches. The gnome town was being considered for inclusion in the forerunner of the Silver Marches, the Alliance of Silverymoon/Luruar, and before a decision could be made, the town was destroyed. Then Drizzt finally--belatedly, tragically--sends his report recommending that the town actually be included within the Alliance, and sadly it's too late. Surely this must've spurred the leaders of the North to get hopping and move forward with their notion of a much stronger multi-national coalition. Even King Gandalug rose from his deathbed for one last journey, to co-sign the Charter. As King Bruenor was always wont to say, "No time fer wastin'!"
quote:
I do agree with you 100% about the timing of the Fall of Blingdenstone (I was convinced by your well reasoned argument in your original post) and so I have it happening on track to what you've said (again, specific date omitted to keep certain people in the dark).
Cool beans! 
It's Forgotten Realms meets Back to the Future meets Cloak & Dagger! 
quote:
I agree with everyone's assessment that THE key factor that made THIS assault so devastating was the 'army' of bebiliths. Interestingly, there seems to be some variance in the source materials on just HOW their attack played out...
Underdark, TGHOTR, and Silver Marches use the terms, 'conjured and loosed on the city', 'summoned bebiliths', and go out of their way to describe the use of summon planar ally and planar binding spells (which both require time and proximity of the caster to the summoned demon). However, the initial draft of the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book says, (on page 211) "Dozens of bebiliths were summoned INTO Blingdenstone by gate and planar ally spells, slaughtering most of the svirfneblin." This may well simply be a slightly different way of describing the same event, but (and I am a lawyer, so word choices matter to me) I think it's useful and instructive. What better way to spring a surprise attack than to send a smaller subset of your demon horde (36 to 60 or so) directly INTO the heart of the enemy city just as the rest of your army is kicking in the front door?
So you're differentiating between "loosed on" and "summoned into"?
OK, sure, that works. The drow did both.
quote:
The sources are quite clear that the actual drow soldiers were a second wave. "Behind these fiendish shock troops, silent and deadly columns of drow warriors BURROWED IN to complete the destruction." (Silver Marches, page 35) "...or taken captive by WAITING drow warriors..." (Underdark, page 129).
So some drow actively burrowed into the town, while others passively lied in wait for gnomish refugees.
quote:
So, it would seem that the drow used some sort of focus, an item perhaps (talk about your WMD!), slipped into the gnome city as a gate terminus for their initial strike force of bebiliths and timed that assault with a force attacking the gates and then a follow on with drow soldiers through tunnels after the elementals had been drawn off and a path through the ward gems blazed. Such an assault strategy would rather tidily explain why the deep gnomes were so swiftly overrun despite the depth and complexity of their defenses.
What if the first wave of bebeliths attacked the city from the outside to draw the elementals out and expend the ward gems ("fiendish shock troops"); and then, with the gnomes focused on that external attack, the internal bebelith attack came? All eyes might've been directed outward, while more demons were being gated in behind the gnome defenders' backs, between them and their king.
Poor, poor King Schnicktick! 
quote:
It would also have the added diplomatic bonus of sparing the drow Matron Mothers agreeing to sponsor such an attack significant losses from within their own forces - something they were no doubt gun shy about after the last drow offensive in the area.
Well, yeah, this is the drow way: why use your own drow troops for fodder when you can always use someone else's first? Demons'll whack anything; take advantage of that.
quote:
The problem with such an assault, from the drow perspective, is that if it loses: a) the element of surprise and b) that initial punch INTO the city bypassing the cities defenses it gets bogged down (and VERY costly) right quick. To me, THAT is the place where a dedicated group of adventurers with a little bit of foreknowledge could do the most good.
I can't rightly say I'd do a whole lot better defending myself against a swarm of hornets just because you told me to brace for impact. It would still be a swarm of hornets! 
And here, we're talking about a swarm of demons! 
Are you gonna be able to bog down a drow invasion with just 12 earth elementals?
Or do you maybe recruit a whole lot more, just for this special occasion?
Relations were said to be very good between Blingdenstone and Mithral Hall in Drizzt's report. Might they have been good enough to help equip the gnome town with a lot more ward gems, just in the knick of time?
Likely assembly points in the Underdark tunnels for foreign troops would probably be rigged by the gnomes to collapse. Start chanting some mumbo-jumbo at this town, and they'll bring the roof down on ya!
There should probably be some nifty places specially prepared to practically invite drow casters in, complete with lovely gnomish parting gifts! 
quote:
Imagine his surprise when he read the fate of Blingdenstone in the 3E guide to the Realms that came out a few short months later...
You jest.
But this is sorta what happened to RAS, himself. He always wanted to revist Belwar Dissengulp, (and Josidiah Starym, too). But then he was told that Josidiah got killed off by somebody else, and the he was told the Blingdenstone got wiped out and Krieger was the highest-ranking known survivor.
Bob was not amused.  
Q: I just thought of this: if the gnome clerics & casters attempted to magically block the drow's summoning spells, might this have likewise interfered with the gnomes' own spells calling and controlling their favored earth elementals? Could attempting to dispell the bebeliths have backfired on the gnomes? |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 02:09:45
Alas, it seems as though we shall have no brilliant tactical strategms from Icelander! Mores the pity, maybe I'll drop him a PM...
BEAST, what make you of my reading of the "Dozens of bebiliths were summoned into Blingdenstone by gate and planar ally spells, slaughtering most of the svirfneblin" line from the 3E Realms campaign setting? Am I onto something or barking at the moon? |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 05:53:21
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
I agree with everyone's assessment that THE key factor that made THIS assault so devastating was the 'army' of bebiliths.
If I'm not reading too much into the description, the fact that the attack blossomed from within the city itself was pretty key. At least, if I were in charge of the attack, that's how I would try to get it done. The point is that who's attacking matters less than where they're attacking from... as already noted, if the attack originated from outside the maze, and the invaders had to battle their way through those cramped winding tunnels, the gnomes would have a good chance of holding them off long enough for the majority of the city to evacuate.
And of course, burrowing into the city is out. Those pesky alarm-gems, and gnomes' inherent attunement to the stone and the simple fact that that's how they expect to be invaded make that an inferior avenue. Drow wouldn't bother trying to be better at stonework than duergar or gnomes... they would just find other methods of killing, relying on their own strengths. I guess the second wave might burrow into the city, but this seems like an arduous and far less desirable method. It's doubtful that the gnomes will be able to mount an effective defense against one of the invasion points (which I'm getting to), let alone all six. So the second wave can safely take the portals into the city and disperse from there.
So attack from within the city... but not the heart of it. Priestesses and wizards, ethereal or shadow-walking or polymorphed to avoid triggering the alarms, enter Blingdenstone and take positions previously calculated using information from their mole. With that spy, the drow will be able to construct a detailed street map of the city, probably including useful tidbits like where the city's key defenders live/work. The mole will also unwittingly tell them how to disguise the casters to initially get into the city. The drow will pick (in my opinion) residential neighborhoods, away from broad avenues/squares. I think six positions around the city sounds good, with six casters at each one. 36 high level drow might sound like a lot, but not when it's divided amongst Menzoberranzan's leading Houses. Each caster opens a portal, through which emerge 1-2 bebiliths, 1-2 draegloths, and 4-5 drow warriors. So easily within three rounds after the synchronized portals opening, 36-72 bebiliths are rampaging through high-density neighborhoods. Defenders will be faced with the impossible task of fighting powerful demons in 6 different places at once. While the bebiliths attack, the drow casters soften up the resistance with death spells and earthquakes, collapse large structures with well-placed disintegrates, etc. the draegloths and warriors just revel in the carnage and eviscerate anything blind enough to venture too close to the casters/portals.
Anybody bent on closing a portal (of which there are 36 so stopping the invasion this way is a futile task anyway) first has to not only ignore/circumvent the bebiliths, but bring a large enough force with him to keep the large-adventuring-band worth of drow casters, warriors, and draegloth busy while he shuts the portal... and hopefully no extra foes are lurking nearby invisibly waiting for just such a hero...
Most of the escape tunnels will be collapsed using explosives, or blocked by wall of stone spells, in the moments immediately after the portals open, to funnel fleeing gnomes into particular passages in which nets (probably both living and animated) await.
quote:
The problem with such an assault, from the drow perspective, is that if it loses: a) the element of surprise and b) that initial punch INTO the city bypassing the cities defenses it gets bogged down (and VERY costly) right quick. To me, THAT is the place where a dedicated group of adventurers with a little bit of foreknowledge could do the most good.
Timing is everything to an attack like this. Anything that disrupts the drow's communication will help a little bit. If the PCs find a way to obtain some advance knowledge of the specific locations where the portals will be opened, then they have the chance to limit the drow to five... maybe four or three if the intel is good and if local gnome heroes can be convinced to cooperate. Of course, with advance knowledge of the attack points comes forewarning of the attack itself, and wise gnomes will simply melt away and leave the city empty (again) so I guess the assumption is that the gnomes won't believe that the PCs' intel is valid. So the heroes might be on their own. Still, some creative planning might give them a chance. My first thought is a temporary localized magic-dead zone covering the place where the drow are going to be setting up shop (in concert with some sneaky backstabbers), but it sounds like you have a creative bunch of players so I'm sure they'll come up with something even better.
Even more "everything" than timing is that mole. If the PCs can identify the mole and use him to feed false information to the drow, the casters arriving in the city to set up the attack can be apprehended silently (using magic-deadening hoods/shackles/whatever) and then Triel is left looking like a noob, with the most powerful matrons in her city standing by waiting to send their troops through portals that are not opening. Tap-tap-tapping their fingers... where are the portals, Triel...? 
Anyway, just my take on it from the information dropped here so far. It sounds like a fun challenge, for both DM and players.
quote:
Imagine his surprise when he read the fate of Blingdenstone in the 3E guide to the Realms that came out a few short months later...
|
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 08:14:12
Alrighty, getting to that longer reply...
First off, to those who have chimed in, thank you all for your insights (and to those who have not, please do!). One of the things I appreciate most about this site is the ability to discuss such matters with a group of thoughtful, passionate, and knowledgeable Realms fans. You can't really bounce ideas like this off of your spouse or your players (especially if your spouse is one of your players, Lol), so a community of fellow DMs and scholars alike is an invaluable aid to improving the story behind one's game. To me, it's all about keeping the fantasy as real as can be, if you know what I mean.
Anyway, to address a few points (and stir the conversational pot a bit):
1) On the time travel element, I'm as much of a time travel sci-fi genre fan as I am a fantasy literature fan, so I spend a lot of time considering the various rules of the genre when I use time travel. The opportunity for paradox abounds, and players are well advised to seriously consider the possible ramifications of their actions (lest they end up doing more harm than good) before simply acting. That said, I am keenly aware of the varied limitations Mystra (and Ao I suppose) place on time travel in the Realms. The difference present in this game is that the time travelers aren't from the Realms, they are from Earth, and so quite possibly (I can't say anything out in the open here, as certain players may lurk about) are in a unique position relative to the local rules. To use a Krynn analogy (and one that fits some of my players quite well...), they might just be like Kender let loose in the time stream... Nevertheless, I am at least sensitive to massive disruptions to canon, so rest assured, events are VERY hard to radically change, the currents of time are very strong indeed, and have a way of bending back around to flow into the channels previously cut for them.
2) On the timeline, BEAST, while I can hardly quibble with the INCREDIBLE work you have done in establishing a coherent timeline out of the mishmash that pervades much of the WoTC material covering the years from 1369 to 1372, I've chosen to nudge certain events around a bit to fit my meta needs. So, in my version of canon, the events of the Hunter's Blade Trilogy take place from early summer 1370 until early spring 1371 and I date the formal founding of Luruar to immediately before that (with the fall of Hellgate Keep giving a nudge towards it's establishment) making the rise of Obould's kingdom the new council's first major test (one it fails in my view). I do agree with you 100% about the timing of the Fall of Blingdenstone (I was convinced by your well reasoned argument in your original post) and so I have it happening on track to what you've said (again, specific date omitted to keep certain people in the dark).
3) As to the rollout of the attack, I again agree with almost all of what you are saying BEAST. In doing my own primary source research I came upon everything you did. The attack was indeed a massive surprise to the gnomes and the city does seem to have fallen quite quickly.
The fact that around 3000 deep gnomes escaped anyway is more a testament to their 'run and hide' mentality and general disaster preparedness levels. Remember, these are the folks who completely evacuated their city without firing a shot the last time the drow were on the march anywhere nearby (in 1358). All the more reason for Triel to make sure such an attack had the element of surprise! In DDUGTTU's description of the city it says, (on page 35) "Ancient shafts still connect Blingdenstone with the abandoned Ironstar delvings above. From the City of Speaking Stones, it is possible to reach the heart of Firstpeak (Ironstar Mountain) via ramps that spiral up a series of vertical shafts. From the halls of Clan Ironstar, now home to the somnolent great silver wyrm Dargentum the Darksteel Drake, a network of forgotten tunnels opens onto the slopes of Firstpeak, high above the River Surbrin. Only the reigning monarch of Blingdenstone and his designated heir know of this route, reserved as a last, best hope of escape for the populace should the city ever be overrun."
I agree with everyone's assessment that THE key factor that made THIS assault so devastating was the 'army' of bebiliths. Interestingly, there seems to be some variance in the source materials on just HOW their attack played out...
Underdark, TGHOTR, and Silver Marches use the terms, 'conjured and loosed on the city', 'summoned bebiliths', and go out of their way to describe the use of summon planar ally and planar binding spells (which both require time and proximity of the caster to the summoned demon). However, the initial draft of the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book says, (on page 211) "Dozens of bebiliths were summoned INTO Blingdenstone by gate and planar ally spells, slaughtering most of the svirfneblin." This may well simply be a slightly different way of describing the same event, but (and I am a lawyer, so word choices matter to me) I think it's useful and instructive. What better way to spring a surprise attack than to send a smaller subset of your demon horde (36 to 60 or so) directly INTO the heart of the enemy city just as the rest of your army is kicking in the front door? The sources are quite clear that the actual drow soldiers were a second wave. "Behind these fiendish shock troops, silent and deadly columns of drow warriors BURROWED IN to complete the destruction." (Silver Marches, page 35) "...or taken captive by WAITING drow warriors..." (Underdark, page 129).
This happened DESPITE the presence of deep gnome wards and guardians. DDUGTTU (on page 39) is quite clear as to the extent of the gnomes defenses. "Like most Underdark cities, Blingdenstone is magically warded against invaders tunneling in from the enveloping Underdark. The city's spellcasters seed the surrounding stone with gems. Each gem is enchanted with one or more glyphs of warding, spelltriggers, and symbols. If disturbed, such wards release effects such as mass blindness and weird. Other gems bear enchantments such as screen that shield the city from scrying. Finally, Blingdenstone's priests have bargained for the services of a contingent of earth elementals. Each elemental serves for four weeks at a time. At least a dozen elementals patrol the surrounding stone at any given time, emerging from the rock only if called. Never straying more than a mile from the city, they quickly converge on and destroy any creature so foolish as to tunnel towards Blindgenstone's caverns."
So, it would seem that the drow used some sort of focus, an item perhaps (talk about your WMD!), slipped into the gnome city as a gate terminus for their initial strike force of bebiliths and timed that assault with a force attacking the gates and then a follow on with drow soldiers through tunnels after the elementals had been drawn off and a path through the ward gems blazed. Such an assault strategy would rather tidily explain why the deep gnomes were so swiftly overrun despite the depth and complexity of their defenses. It would also have the added diplomatic bonus of sparing the drow Matron Mothers agreeing to sponsor such an attack significant losses from within their own forces - something they were no doubt gun shy about after the last drow offensive in the area.
The problem with such an assault, from the drow perspective, is that if it loses: a) the element of surprise and b) that initial punch INTO the city bypassing the cities defenses it gets bogged down (and VERY costly) right quick. To me, THAT is the place where a dedicated group of adventurers with a little bit of foreknowledge could do the most good.
What does everyone think?
As a postscript to my ramblings, I'll tell a funny tale that goes in the 'odd coincidences' pile. I noted in my original post that this campaign's time travel element is that it is taking place overlaying the history of a previous 'play yourself' Realms campaign I ran many years ago. The PCs in this game are interacting with the PCs from that game (in their now NPC status) as they go about their original campaign activities (using my old campaign journals as a guide). That game largely began and ended during the reign of 2E. Waaaay before the concept of the Fall of Blingdenstone was thought up.
In that game, the PCs visited Mantol Derith (and Blingdenstone on their way) during the very end of 1370/very start of 1371 on a mission utterly unrelated to the one the present PCs are on. The head of the party (yours truly, Kris the Grey, who was getting a rare chance to play his NPC self as a PC while one of the other players ran the game for an single adventure to give me a taste of playing), needing a guide to Mantol Derith and having an unhealthy fascination with drow, took the opportunity to bargain with the Bregan D'Aerthe drow he encountered when he and his companions defeated the marauding Duergar warbands.
Thinking himself terribly clever and fully capable of matching wits with any drow, he negotiated for a drow guide to Mantol Derith. He agreed as the price of such guide, to use his status as a trade envoy from Silverymoon (and the access to the gnome council chambers it gave him), to sneak into the city a simple magical 'listening device' for the drow. He upheld his part of the bargain, but then double crossed the drow by telling the gnomish king (who he'd befriended by ridding him of his Duergar problems) of the device and convincing them to use it as a source to pass fake intelligence to the drow. He used the guide to get into and out of Mantol Derith, was betrayed on the way out of the trade post, moments before he sprung his own betrayal of the drow, and then returned to Blingdenstone mission over. He left the city for the surface, thinking himself quite clever, with the device by now locked safely away in the vaults under the main government house by the gnomes. Imagine his surprise when he read the fate of Blingdenstone in the 3E guide to the Realms that came out a few short months later...
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| BEAST |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 06:05:53
Do devilish summoning circles always have to be pentagrams? What if the 6 drow houses were planning on forming a hexagram around the city of Blingdenstone? Could interfering with just one of those houses' operations be enough to stop the entire summoning? I'm thinking along the lines of Szass Tam's first wave of Dread Rings, which apparently similarly failed because one of the Dread Rings was sabotaged before he could unleash his ultimate plan.
Blingdenstone has a very cool, three-dimensional maze for its front porch called the Labyrinth. That has got to slow invading troops down immensely. It would be quite fun to read about the gnomes defending their home with that crazy maze properly equipped. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 22:36:03
I think the deep gnomes could take them, at least for this first round, if the bebiliths could be neutralized, and the gnomes could prevent the drow from any sort of flanking. That is to say, force the drow to fight step by step through the city's prepared defenses. Triel isn't bringing the full might of Menzo against the gnomes. It's a powerful force, and in canon it was overwhelming, but it's not everything Menzo can throw. For instance, there is no mention of battle slaves other than bebiliths. So if the fiends are dealt with, it becomes a much more even match.
Of course, it's entirely possible that if the fiends go away, Triel will be forced to call for a retreat. She wants a victory and a massacre to shore up her support, she can't afford a drow bloodbath. On the other hand, she might feel like she'd have to go through with it either way, because retreating would be seen as weakness by the other matrons. It would be a really nasty fork to put her in.
My personal opinion is that IF the gnomes know the drow are coming, and IF they know the tactics the drow are planning to use, and IF they can force them through prepared defenses, and IF the bebiliths can be neutralized, then they'd have a chance of holding. If the PC's provide the first two points, the gnomes can do much of the last two on their own.
If I was looking for a point of maximum of effect for a group of adventurers, I'd make a strike against the assembled drow spellcasters just as they're about to start start the summoning. Use meld into stone and stone walk-type magics to hide unseen, and then hit them when they're unsuspecting and where most or all of their most powerful spells will be taken up with summoning, and not general combat.
There's no way you'd be able to kill them all; this would be a "hit as hard as possible as fast as possible, then retreat as fast as possible" special forces kind of hit. Preferably with as many high level svirfneblin in support, and to provide escape back into the stone. If you can kill some of the spellcasters, while the soldiers are likely keeping as far away as possible to avoid becoming a meal for hungry fiends, you'll take that many fiends out of the picture, sow confusion and discord in the ranks, and maybe force the drow to rethink the whole thing, since you've proved that the gnomes know you're coming.
Then you retreat back to Blingdenstone, which has hopefully already been evacuated of non-combatants, and prepare to take on the drow, assuming they still come on (which is likely). How's that for a potential path to victory? |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 19:09:28
I must say I am delighted by the volume and depth of responses on this issue from you all. I knew Candlekeep was the place to go with this question! I shall respond in a more 'point by point' fashion a bit later in the day.
Keep those opinions coming, any dissenting views of the 'they can take 'em' school? Perhaps something from the 'Battle of Thermopylae' fans? I was thinking that, after his brilliant tactical work in Unther, Icelander might have something to add... |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 17:23:47
I don't think that your party should be able to save Blingdenstone too.
Your group is far too weak to be a big factor in the direct fighting and their good standings with the nations of the silver marches don't bring in much benefits either. Even if any or all of the nations would want to bring any of their troops into the underdark to defend Blingdenstone they would get slaughtered on their way there. If not by random monsters or other faction than by the drow themself when their spies or patrols notecing them.
So maybe the best approach would be to let them help out in some situations during the battle to help more gnomes escape. |
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