| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 01:26:50
So in one of the other scrolls the problem of the built-in dependency on magic items for both 3.x and 4e came up. I have looked into trying to divorce my PFRPG games from dependency on magical items a little bit, and here is the big problem--the "Big Six" items.
quote:
Trailblazer: New Horizons in 3.5 Roleplaying, pg 7.
The Big Six items are as follows:
• Magical weapon enhancement
• Magical armor + shield
• Deflection bonus to AC (e.g. ring of protection)
• Natural armor bonus to AC (e.g. amulet of natural armor)
• Stat booster (e.g. gauntlets of ogre power)
• Resistance item (e.g. cloak of resistance)
My question is, how would (or have) you compensate(d) for the loss of these items? |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 22:31:58
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm not sure I would personally agree with that healing mechanic, Diffan. Imagine a priest (who happens to have 1d8 hit die each level), casting cure light wounds (which happens to heal 1d8 hit points). Are you basically saying that this priest at 5th level should essentially be able to "cast" 5 free cure light wounds on himself each day, at little cost beyond a 10-minute rest break?
In a game that say, restricts curative magic completely or in game with no cleric at all? I don't see it as a big deal. Remember, for games with light or no magic, there's really no way to heal yourself outside of resting for 8 hours to get back minimal results. Of course in such a game with this mechanic, I'd completely remove any chance for wands of Cure Light Wounds and prhobit spellcasting to one spell per slot (no multiple castings of specific spells).
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Again, this is the inflation (and dare I say again, the influence of video-game mindset) built into each game edition. In 2E you tried to avoid taking damage and you progressed more slowly through threatening situations. In 4E you can focus on moving "to the interesting parts" because you have greater hit point totals to soak up damage, and you have some self-healing abilities to ensure you're always topped up - you even have something of an "extra" character if you consider that your cleric is no longer "required" to function as the party's mobile hospital. And 3E/3.5E which is really an intermediate transitional edition, even without using tons of house rules and d20/OGL supplements.
It comes down to tactical design. In pre-4E games you were limited to what spells your casters had and when they were used up, you rested, often without regard to how many HP the others in the party had. It's quite different in 4E, where your basing your adventuring day solely on how many Healing Surges you have. After battles, most PCs often spend one or more surges to get up to full HP for the next battle. But you run out of these pretty quickly. All in all, it breaks down to about the same. The thing is, Clerical healing gets better in 3E where as your healer is only going to heal 2/encounter and hopefully you won't have to delve into your Second Wind.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Again, I'm not saying the philosophy behind 2E or 4E is superior, they're basically different games with different rules and both are entertaining. But it's not right to assume 4E-styled design mechanics "need" to be present in pre-4E games ... just as it's wrong to impose 2E-era restrictions on 3E-based D&D gaming. I personally think 3E (along with 3E characters) is already over-the-top but it works fine and doesn't need any extra powers and abilities retrograded across editions.
The mechanic in any ol' 3E game would be overpowered and make Healing too easy to implement. But this is about games with low- or no-magic. If I wanted to run a 3E/PFRPG game set in The Changed Lands (Sterling's novels) about a post-apocolyptic Earth, how do I handle healing with no clerics, no wands of CLW or no potions? Or how about an E6-style campaign with no healer and limited spellcasting? This mechanic makes it a bit ore tolerable option instead of "not getting damaged" (or ie. avoid fighting because tha'ts not fun at all). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 20:47:26
I'm not sure I would personally agree with that healing mechanic, Diffan. Imagine a priest (who happens to have 1d8 hit die each level), casting cure light wounds (which happens to heal 1d8 hit points). Are you basically saying that this priest at 5th level should essentially be able to "cast" 5 free cure light wounds on himself each day, at little cost beyond a 10-minute rest break?
Again, this is the inflation (and dare I say again, the influence of video-game mindset) built into each game edition. In 2E you tried to avoid taking damage and you progressed more slowly through threatening situations. In 4E you can focus on moving "to the interesting parts" because you have greater hit point totals to soak up damage, and you have some self-healing abilities to ensure you're always topped up - you even have something of an "extra" character if you consider that your cleric is no longer "required" to function as the party's mobile hospital. And 3E/3.5E which is really an intermediate transitional edition, even without using tons of house rules and d20/OGL supplements.
Again, I'm not saying the philosophy behind 2E or 4E is superior, they're basically different games with different rules and both are entertaining. But it's not right to assume 4E-styled design mechanics "need" to be present in pre-4E games ... just as it's wrong to impose 2E-era restrictions on 3E-based D&D gaming. I personally think 3E (along with 3E characters) is already over-the-top but it works fine and doesn't need any extra powers and abilities retrograded across editions. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 18:46:57
I just had this thought that draws from D&D:Next's rules;
So in 3E you have HD that represent your character's advancement. They're there just as a number, with little weight in the mechanics except to determine your level (either racial or class). DDN is similiar, but the function as a sort of 4E Healing Surge, spending them to regain hit points with a healer's kit. So what about adding this feature to 3E games? Espically in low-magic settings.
So a 6th level Fighter normally with 6 HD could spend X HD per day to regain 1d10 or Con-modifier in HP with a use of a Healer's kit and a 10-minute rest. A Heal Skill could increase the bonus to the HD check or a static increase to the Con-modifier. But the negative effects are he's more susceptible to magic that targts HD like Sleep and Fear-based spells. |
| Gavinfoxx |
Posted - 16 Jun 2012 : 23:25:55
The problem with this is that just exacerbates one of the biggest problems in 3.Xe -- caster and noncaster disparity.
Let's take this as described in the 'traps beginners should be aware of' thread from minmaxboards here:
www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4189
Here's the quote:
"Magic items are as much a part of your character's abilities as their class features. Moreso, in fact, since apart from exotic races and the occasional obscure feat, they're the only way non-casters can gain vital abilities like flight and immunity to those instant-death effects (summary here). The game isn't balanced around characters who have only half their abilities, so if you want to run a "low magic" campaign then make sure you use only non-caster NPCs as enemies (no monsters) so that everyone is penalised equally. Because without a magic sword, a level 100 fighter will lose to a level 2 allip every time."
And the summary here references this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851
Which lists lots of the most necessary abilities that the game assumes you will have access to as you level, which you should most definitely *also* take into account other than those Big Six list of items.
The specific vow of poverty fixes that take into account both the big six items AND the utility stuff, like from that list, are what you should really pay attention to. Here is one such fix:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4030.0 |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Jun 2012 : 22:25:24
quote:
Hawkins
My question is, how would (or have) you compensate(d) for the loss of these items?
That question is worded in a way which loads assumptions onto the answer.
The sorts of magical items and modifiers you list have existed in every D&D version. The difference is that prior to D&D 3E, players generally couldn't access such items on demand. They got whatever junk happened to fall out of the treasure hoard, or they targeted an adversary known to possess certain items, or spellcasters took their chances enchanting their own through rather expensive and involved and arduous processes which never really guaranteed success. As of 3E, characters (of all classes) simply write a token quantity of XP and gold off their character sheets and obtain magical items built to their custom specifications; a system that's not a lot harder than shopping for rations. Consequently, about half of a character "build" now involves filling up all the inventory slots with a particular gear loadout. I know the comparison is oversimplified and perhaps unfair, but to me "character builds" in post-2E D&D seem an awful lot like those seen in video games like Diablo 2 ... you just "need" the right gear to make everything work optimally, and you kind of have the expectation that all the gear will eventually become reasonably accessible.
I understand that powergaming and edition inflation are just symptoms of progress. And AD&D 2E certainly had more than its share of flaws and problems, but the sort of item dependency you seem to be attempting to "remove" was never a pronounced component in 2E gaming unless playing within excessively high-magic or Monty Hall campaigns. So maybe approaching magical items with more of a 2E mindset will solve many of the problems you face - specifically 1) assume magic items are rare and even heroes are lucky to possess some, and 2) assume magic items are precious enough that they're almost never traded or sold (at least not for less than a King's ransom). And, as always of course, constantly eroding the PC gold supply has a wonderful way of motivating them to actually work for what they want. |
| Gavinfoxx |
Posted - 16 Jun 2012 : 21:40:03
One way to remove dependence on magical items is to encourage everyone to be a caster class, to thereby provide their own utility that magic items often provide.
Or, you could use one of the various vow of poverty fixes on forums like giantitp or minmaxboards. There are quite a few of those!
So how do you like combining Trailblazer and Pathfinder rules? What things do you actually combine?
Or you could switch your game system over to Legend. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 05:30:10
I like the idea of removing creatures stat modifiers from attacks, damage, armor class, saves, skills, and spell dc's. Isn't that why PC's collect gear to keep up with the monsters? |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 04:54:20
In the Conan RPG, all stats are bumped up together at certain levels in addition to the normal stat increases.
Also, because of how the magic works, Sorcerers don't have an endless supply of magic to hurl whenever they want...and indeed the spells are somewhat dangerous for the caster to even learn! |
| Diffan |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 04:27:09
Option 1: Add automatic bonuses at the preceived level for the static bonuses you'd normally aquire (aka Inherent bonuses ala 4E). Possibly a +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels afterward. This would be to all AC, Attacks/Dmg, and Saving Throws.
Option 2: Remove benefits (or drop them down significantly) gained via HD from monsters, such as Natural armor, Deflection, etc. This is one of the few things I've seen in later CR 12+ monsters, that they have really high AC due to high Natural. Drop this down by 1/2, and it's far more feesable to hit, which you can then counter by giving more HP.
Option 3: I like the idea that scrolls are ways to diversify magic uses, not just another Spell Battery application. So, a Scroll can be used just like any spell they have access to but the casting of that scroll uses up the same level spell slot as it's level or lower. So A wizard could have a Fireball scroll (3rd level spell) and then sacrifice one of his pre-determined spell slots to cast that instead. I'd also restrict what types of spells can be placed in Wands, such as only combative spells would do (Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, etc.) This makes having these really good, but in only 1 style application and you can't use it to spam other class abilities (like Invisibility, Find Traps, Knock, etc..)
Option 4: I'd also give an additional +1 bonus to the PC's ability scores when it comes up, but it can't be spent on the same Ability as the first one. So a Fighter at 4th level gets two +1s and he might put one into Strength and one into Constitution or Wisdom or Dexterity (just not 2 into Strength). This would alleviate some of the stress placed on Ability Score modifying items. You could also add a +1 to everything at 9th and 18th level. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 04:07:21
A system that you might want to look at is the Conan RPG from Mongoose. It is a very "high magic" setting...that doesn't give much if any magic to the PCs!
One of the things it does is allow more statistic boosts through the history of the game. I suggest a look at it. |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 01:46:01
Well, 2-6 are typically solvable by realizing that by cutting them out you have changed the dynamic of the CR system. It will fall back into balance if you treat the party as having an APL of 2-3 levels lower. Probably -1 from 4-7, -2 from 8-12, -3 from 13-16.
Magic weapon enhancement is part the same issue (and in some ways identical to stat boosters). The real trick is where DR comes into play. In so many cases this is going to be a flat ON/OFF issue, it will be a fair or easy fight or an impossible one if they don't have the material they need or the magic to cheat. This is now your responsibilty to keep a closer eye on. Incorporeal's going to be a big deal now - you'll want to make sure the players realize they can use torches to harm ghosts.
Additionally, NPCs are a little gimped by this, but not as badly as the PCs since NPC gear is always worse than PC gear. So, you don't need to worry about their CR as much.
Monsters with a lot of attacks, particularly iterative ones will become more of an issue, since their design was based on more attacks missing than will happen in your game.
Overall, you'll want to fill encounters with more weaker components and avoid the single powerful one. This makes better battles in general, but since you're tampering with the balance, it is even more important.
The non wizards/clerics will suffer. Maybe start considering a healing surge system, too. Wizards will become a little more important if they start utilizing those spells like magic weapon, etc.
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