| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 20:43:59
Hi again everybody,
today I would like to discuss how you as Dm do run high level parties in general.
Do you allow items like the ring of spell-turning and the like? I always feel very very careful about these, since they can easily break the game.
also, is not a high level party - always considering them to work together in a CLEVER way - almost never REALLY challenged?
or is this maybe because i have rarely run high level-groups so far?
If the party has characters which are developed and built as a team, I have made the experience that they can overcome almost everything you throw at them.
Basically this is not the issue, but challenging them without being ridiculous (i.e. you are being followed by a quintett of beholders.... ) is getting more and more difficult...
Looking forward to hearing your opinions. |
| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 03:16:34
You just need to use better tactics. Even if sometimes that involves cheating on your rolls. I once inherited a mid to high level from a DM who quit. I think I had more fun, and a better challenge, trying to kill them than they had trying to kill the NPCs. |
| Kyrel |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 23:04:43
IMO "regular" games and "Epic" games differ in their focus. Low and mid level characters might well adventure and go out to look for the dragon's hoard. But epic level characters have already done that to death. They are getting on in years typically, and what they are actually more interested in, is either ensuring their retirement, enjoying their retirement, or acquiring some actual power and influence. For this reason I believe that the game should change. Low level games might have plenty of encounters where the players happily hack their way through one band of Orcs and Goblins after another, but at high level there might well be several play sessions without a single encounter, because the game has become far more political, and where the players used to be the pawns, they are now powerful and influential enough to be the ones who are moving and manipulating other.
If a group of epic level characters are able to chew through every logical type of combat encounter they might realistically face, then challenge them in another way. The guy who wants revenge on them for wrecking his plans time and again might finally have accepted that he can't kill them outright by throwing henchmen at them. But how about throwing the law at them then?
A not overly popular ruler might be concerned with having a bunch of famous heroes camping out in his lands, least they end up inspiring an attempt at his life or his power/position.
Powerful people may well attract the attention of people who want to ride their coat tails to glory, or powerful politicians who want to use them in their own political games. What is the group going to do if they discover that they are being manipulated in more or less subtile but legal ways, which nonetheless end up causing significant changes (which the group may not agree with)? What good is it that you can cast half a dozen Meteor Swarms every day, if blowing up your opponent's castle will simply result in your character being arrested and/or have his lands and possessions siezed by the law?
Play up the roleplaying part of the game, and only run physical encounters once in a while.
If the players end up getting access to too many killer combos with their magical items, throw them up against an opponent who can and does cast Mordenkainen's Disjunktion, and hear them bitch and while when they have to take on a small horde of enemies without the use of their magical items, who have suddenly become quite mundane...(No, it's not a popular move, but it is a possible path).
As mentioned in previous posts, drain their resources. A Goblin may not pose much of a threat to an epic level party, but what if said Goblin releases a trap when it is killed? And what if the next 50 lone Goblins to the same, and constant harrassment prevent the group from resting for 3 days in a row, refusing to give them the peace to rest and regain their spells anew?
Epic level characters can be challenged, but they require a different approach than lower levels characters. Challenge the players intellect, rather than the characters strength of arm, so to speak. Confuse them with mysteries and puzzles, and frustrate them with politicians and nobels and situations that have no right or wrong answer or solution, but only different points of view. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 20:23:17
Some other things I thought of/remembered over lunch:
Burning up Resources: Having run a 3rd Edition D&D campaign that went to Epic Levels, one of the ways I found to keep play interesting was by not letting the world stop just because the characters needed a break in the action to replenish hit points, memorize spells and replenish charges on limited-use-per-day items.
When you have high level characters, it behooves the DM to create linked encounters that leave little or no room for rest and recuperation.
After all, high level Wizards and Clerics have a hefty total of memorized spells. Make it your goal to get at least on PC to use up at least 90% of his or her memorized spells before the next rest period.
The benefit to this kind of play is that it forces players to utilize the dearth of low- and mid-spellslots that would otherwise sit unused for the length of an encounter.
Likewise, when the party is confronted with, say, an entire village of wounded or dying villagers/soldiers/merchants who are suffering burns from, and slowly choking because of, a haze of volcanic ash, you can create dilemmas for healers (clerics, paladins, druids) who’d prefer to not use up their wands of cure light wounds, their healing potions or their memorized spells/lay on hands ability for healing the masses, as well as the wizard who has only so many uses of his or her Teleport spell each day.
Play the Henchmen: Something I discovered for my campaign is that henchmen can be turned into lesser player characters. Within certain limits, it is a nice break from regular play to have your players run their Henchmen instead of their regular characters.
When you’ve played the same arrogant, know-it-all Wizard for five or more years of real life play, it’s nice to take a short break every so often and switch over to roleplaying the quiet, shy, but oh so curious Psionicist henchmen of that Wizard. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 19:08:33
A couple of things that have worked for me:
Balancing far-flung interests: Though it can lead to having one party member in Waterdeep, two in Suzail and a third in Silverymoon, sometimes it’s just more fun to roleplay High Level PCs dealing with their personal business interests or attempts at gathering large amounts of resources (like Epic Spell components or lining up materials and resources to build a flying keep) instead of running yet another seemingly incongruous high level encounter.
Note that when characters are separated, they are also more vulnerable to enemies who are watching them and waiting for a chance to strike when the party of adventurers is not standing together.
It’s been my experience that high level characters are very overconfident. NPCs and Monsters with Challenge Ratings that wouldn’t normally threaten a high level party can, in small groups, be a deadly threat against a single high level character with no backup.
Playing off of RSEs: A Rage of Dragons, a mass invasion of demons out of the ruins of Myth Drannor or sahuagin from the ocean depths, Shade Enclave deciding to fly south and claim the Stonelands or a combined army of Force Dragon-riding Cloud and Storm giants invading the Storm Horns and Thunder Peaks and proclaiming it to be their personal hunting preserve and quarry for the purpose of building new flying castles to rule the skies over those mountains, etc…are all great ways to play havoc with the PCs personal land holdings, their connections to places that are important to them and their desire as (presumably) goodly adventurers to protect the weak and innocent from the worst ravages of the world.
I’ve done all of those in one form or another and our play group had a lot of fun with each of these campaign arcs.
EDIT: Oh, and one more: Avoiding Overkill: High Level PCs like to cut loose with their most powerful spells and weapons, but when you’re dealing with NPCs and monsters wreaking havoc amongst a crowd of people, all of a sudden using Meteor Swarm is not an option (unless the party is mostly amoral or evil).
This kind of encounter scenario also works well with city-wide or area-wide encounters where multiple groups of bad guys are active all over the place. This allows you as DM to try and pull the PCs apart, which (again) makes them more vulnerable.
Plus it’s fun for characters who can teleport or shapechange because they’ll try to move from place to place to support the other PCs. |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 09:01:43
I remember this to be even " worse" 2e days. when you had reached level 9, you really had to try very hard if you wanted to die, otherwise it simply did not happen anymore....
I remember fighters taking on two dragons, and getting away, simply for the damage output could not reduce his hitpoints fast enough, and a lvl 9 fighter in these days dished out some freaky damage |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 10:03:40
True... I think we closely approached that line around level 22. But even though that line is crossed, it should still be possible to get a lot of fun out of it. Its ofc not only up to the DM, but also players. Personally, when I DM, I like (dependent on level) the players to have a very active position in what goes on in the campaign. I always give them some main quest, and possible a side quest but I always let my players have a lot of say in if they want to take it or how to do it. That can end up in some total crazy stuff, but most of the time it works great. For us at least!!!
But that’s just how we do things when I DM. Our "main" DM, the one who DMs our high level party, uses some of the same freedom concepts I do, but he keeps us more busy, and that makes it feel more like a job for our adventures, and when we have down time we are on holiday.
|
| Kilvan |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 01:11:31
I completely agree, a high level party can achieve more than a low-level party. It is obvious of course, but I think a line can be drawn where greater accomplishment is restricted by game limitations and characters having transcended death itself. That line will be different for every group, mine's at around level 15. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 00:43:48
i just dont see a low level party getting in and out hell, or too deep into the ruins of Imaskar... Just saying that even though its up to the DM I feel that its more limited what a low level party can do compared to a high level party. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 00:41:02
I might also add that most dungeons (Myth Drannor, Hellgate Keep, Undermountain) can be visited before level 10. Just because you don't wipe them all, in the same night in your case, doesn't mean they can't be used. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 00:39:31
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I just feel that there is so much that low levels cant do. Planar travel, exploration of ALL the dungeons of fearun and simply just seeing all of the wonders of the world. Somtimes a level 5 just cant cut it!
Planar travel is not only accessible for low-level parties (via portals or NPCs), but it can create better effects. Make them travel to a certain plane (against their will maybe), an hostile one, and let them find a way to come back. You just got yourself a very interesting quest.
High level players will just pop a plane-shift spell, or wait 8 hours if it wasn't prepared. I'm not against high-level play and I know it can be done, but don't make the mistake of thinking low-levels are denied incredible high-magic adventures. Not that you actually said that, but it could be a common misconception. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 23:41:15
I just feel that there is so much that low levels cant do. Planar travel, exploration of ALL the dungeons of fearun and simply just seeing all of the wonders of the world. Somtimes a level 5 just cant cut it! |
| coach |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 21:47:54
kill em all and let Ao sort them out muhuhahaha
seriously though ... nothing screams high level like being the leaders in a war (if that is a viable campaign plot at this time) |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 18:59:10
Sigh, for my suggestion for high level campaigns in 3.X, just don't do it. Start low, build a campaign, and try to end your story before stuff become crazy and every encounters take 2 hours to do, plus at least a half-hour to plan. My campaign is currently at level 16 (ECL18 if you take into consideration some of the crazy items they have), and we all can't wait to start new characters.
Problem is; my campaign rocks, so we all want to see how it all ends. Encounters are now a necessary evil.
I'm exaggerating of course, we are having fun, but I think we have reached a point where the length of the battles is a problem. We are using every software available to accelerate the process, we even programmed one software to completely manage the monsters rolls (a great piece of work I must say), and it still take ages. Not to mention the fear of character death is kinda gone, as they all know it would be stupid of me to kill a character so near the end, 4 years after we started, and they are right.
3-4 more months, and it is back to level 1 (and I'm not DM, yay!) |
| Ozreth |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 17:42:21
Funny enough http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120220 |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 07:35:52
The higher the level of PCs, the greater work for the DM. It is a different way of world building. As levels increase the size of the world the PCs know increases. Also the odds that some NPCs, low level in the past that survive also grow in level (Oh survive could include a raise from death of something killed). Higher levels require more work for the DM, not only current adventure, the history of the NPCs, the lands the PCs visited and how they change.
Some DMs and players do not even want to do the higher levels from what I have read. |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 06:11:16
All quite reasonable asnwers, except Markustay's first one, you are not celebrating carneval. are you ? ;)
What I mean is, when I DM, I always try to keep in mind the bigger game mechanics.
If the PC's have to be challenged by a flight of dragons, two dozen beholders etc. this wouldbe in my opinion very rarely a collection of monsters just popping out of nowhwere.
the epitome of this was a novel about the phaerimm, which explained the missing city in cormyr, and had the chosen of mystra fight the shades.
as markustay said, well in his foot note, after chars being level 12 or higher, they shouldbe able to handle pretty much anything.
but it is keeping my mind busy for ages already, that in published adventures for high level parties, even rank and file troops suddenly are mighty heroes on their own ( sometimes simple guards or raiders having ten char levels..... )
I am also aware that this is a small area between staying at least a bit grounded with not shaking the realms with every adventurers party and also not keeping your players on such a low level that they are not as good equipped, especially with magic items and spells, so they can handle properly the challenges ought for them.
regarding this, i think "the city of the spider queen" one of the best high level challenges I have met so far.
but eventually it is all like different micro-worlds and societies, as some of you hinted. level 1 guys protect villages from the mere thugs and murderous raiders, or a pack of dire rats ( I love heroes fighting big, stinking rats... and then showing off in the Tavern " i killed two rats in a pitched fight...." )
Whileas the level 18 party is either killing the nasty demon or dragon that made these raiders move on the village or forced them out of the territory.
it is just with high level parties such immensely more difficult to stay in a situation where you are able to justify the different strings of a plot logically to yourself and the players.
everybody confused now? yes? good. if not, also good ;)
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 04:59:58
Any fight with a beholder gets ugly.  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 04:21:51
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, I recall a rather ugly fight between my players and six beholders (and an illusionist) ... 7 PCs, average level 5-6ish, highest level 8. If they can't handle a quintet of beholders at "high" level they're in trouble.
Well 5 to 8 level would have a hard time taking out one beholder. I can understand why the fight ugly. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 02:20:37
Hmm, I recall a rather ugly fight between my players and six beholders (and an illusionist) ... 7 PCs, average level 5-6ish, highest level 8. If they can't handle a quintet of beholders at "high" level they're in trouble. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 01:41:30
High level power requires high level risks. The one problem you can run into is not making it hard enough a challenge. If one or more got a ring of spell turning that should not break a game. A successful level 15 should likely have at least three rings if not more. While such toys can be carried only two rings can be in effect.
The higher level monsters will kill a high level party if they do not have any magical items. Also there are still the rust monster (and worst) that magic items do not matter much.
Offer a risk reward to get them out of their holdings with the same way you get a low level party to get them to move. You never tell players what all the dangers are, you tell them of the treats to what they care about.
There are many factors that come into play, the party that started at level one are the same people that reached high level (often at least one member gets replaced during such growth to the higher levels), how closely are they still connected after establishing their holds (The Wizard build a tower on border of the Lord's land, the Priest built in temple within the lands and so on), if they are even still friends because of disputes that might have occurred during the 15-20 levels of adventuring).
There never is a simple answer with so many variables unknown. Often high level foes tend to be NPCs that also have gathered power and strength. One idea that occupied to me as a possible idea of a monster challenge.
The young Red Dragon killed at maybe level 5 had family. The family has by magic learned not only the killers of (son, grandson, great granddaughter, etc.) , but also their current locations. A flight of dragons seeks revenge. The members of all the parties are at equal danger. Best chance to survive is to work together as a team.
Clearly an offer of an idea of how to pull a party back together, though does not need to be a dragon. Most monsters killed had family.
|
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 01:14:26
We are playing a 10 year old campaign where the highest level is 26, we do allow anything you can offfort. Our Paladin has just gotten this: Dawnbringer(+5 obdorium mercurial, keen, ghost touch, longsword of holy power) and this: Armor of Tariel(+5mithrill battle plate of grace), with the following special abilities: Death ward (+2)
Heavy armor optimization (+20.000 gp market price) Greater heavy armor optimization (+40.000 gp market price) Nimbleness (+1)... and: Bulwark of Light (+5 extreme mithril shield of leadership) with the following special abilities: Leadership (+2) Heavy shield optimization: (+ 20.000 gp to market price) Greater heavy shield optimization (+ 40.000 gp to market price) Grants the wearer +2 to all charisma based skills.
My character has this robe: Special Items:
Robe of Am’mara:
(Artefact)
This black and dark red robe is of epic beauty. It is long with black runes magically drawn upun it. It gives the wearer the appearance of rulership. This great robe was given to Am'mara, as rulership of a Netherise city became hers. It grands the wearer the folowing abilities:
• Spell resistance 30
• Immunity to mind effecting spells. (market price: 110.000)
• Ability to cast one extra spell per lvl. 1-9. (market price: 285.000gp)
• DC of all spells increase +2
• +2 to all saving throws against spells and spell like abilities.
As you can see we allow crazy items.
In terms of games we usually just follow our interests. For me its researching new spells or gaining ancient knowledge. for the paladin, well he just became king of waterdeep, so he has his hands full! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 00:14:56
A live band, plenty of food and alcohal, classy decorations (no Walmart paper crap), and make sure you work your way through the crowd and greet everyone like they were a close, personal friend, and that you are so happy they could make it. Be sure to mingle, and that others are mingling - spot loners and introduce them around.
And if all else fails, strip to your boxers and dance around with a lampshade on your head. You may look like an idiot, but whats matters is making sure all your guests have a great time.
What? Thats not what you meant? Oooops.... nevermind... 
On Topic: I've never had to deal with that - most campaigns I ran petered-out around level 12 or so. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 23:44:14
There are ways around nearly any defense a high level party might have. Problem with a Ring of Spell-Turning? Have them face a powerful pscionicist or 3. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 21:41:27
Hit them where it hurts, so go after their strongholds, henchmen, trading interests etc. There is an incident from the ongoing campaign that still gets one of my players going. he was rebuilding a port village that had been ravaged by the plague, so new wharves, boat sheds and two new trading ships. Just as the ships were about to be finished someone came and burnt everything. The player was fuming, not because of the wasted money, but because they were his and his character was building them for others to benefit from, needless to say to this day he is always looking for clues and leads to take him closer to the perpetrators of the arson attack. My players are well past name level now, and proper movers and shakers in the Realm, but the player would give up all the titles and prestige and money and land and everything else his character owns to get his hands on the arsonist.
You don't need to create a super sized fiendish half dragon/half t-rex to challenge them 
Cheers
Damian |
|
|
