| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 07:32:28
Hi everyone,
So I'm wanting to slap a good sized island in a big lake in the underdark for a shipwreck pirate style adventure.
And here's my issue:
Do islands in Underdark lakes or seas have sand on their shores? Or would they just be big slabs of rock sticking out of the water? Underdark caverns have those weird glowing crystals growing out of the stone, so I was thinking about an eerie glowing beach with purple or greenish glowing crystals in the sand...but is there sand and what color is it? White? Black from volcanic ash?
Who has some good ideas. This one is driving me barmy. ;)
Thank you. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 15:59:21
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
That's a pretty cool experience you have had Wolf. Sounds like fun but after watching that movie Descent, I don't know if I would ever go into a cave system. Get eaten by a crazy morlock thing! hehe.
I've seen both the UK and the US versions of The Descent. The UK version was much, much better. There is also a sequel out The Descent II which I just obtained and will be watching this weekend. I hope it's as good as the first one!
As for the rest, nothing to fear here in the real world but, Wikipedia has an interesting section of Realms-related lore as part of their Grimlock article. Not sure how accurate it is because of the notes of citation needed but, here is the excerpt:
quote:
Grimlocks in the Forgotten Realms
In the Forgotten Realms setting, grimlocks are the descendants of humans of Uthgardt ancestry from the Golden Eagle and Red Pony tribes. Long ago, in 576 DR (the Year of the Sunless Passage), these barbarian tribes vanished into the Underdark by way of a passage that leads down from beneath One Stone, the Uthgardt ancestor mound located in the easternmost Moonwood. After years of wandering in the lightless passages of the Underdark, these barbarians evolved to the current grimlocks. They still retain twisted vestiges of their ancient traditions, including a depraved form of ancestor worship that involves consumption of the aged and weak while they still live.[citation needed]
In the Underdark of Faerūn, some groups of grimlocks worship individual medusae, considering them as minor deities. The power of a medusa's gaze is beyond the grimlock's ability to comprehend (as they are blind), so it seems divine to them. More enlightened grimlocks, however, tend to worship Shar, the goddess of darkness.[citation needed]
Many wild grimlocks are born in an extended series of caves that they call the Fingerhome. The caverns of the Fingerhome extend throughout the upper, middle, and lower Underdark.[citation needed]
One tribe of grimlocks resides in the Cavern of Cloven Heads, a small cave that five thousand years prior was the site of a battle between a rear guard of dwarves of Clan Black Axe and a group of drow refugees led by Menzoberra the Kinless (the Lolthite priestess who founded Menzoberranzan). This tribe abandoned their nomadic ways and settled the surrounding caverns. Within the Cavern of Cloven Heads lies a monstrous boulder engraved with runes. Surrounding the boulder are the riven skulls of hundreds of drow. This discovery matched fragmentary legends regarding the grimlocks' lost ancestor mound, so they now revere this mound as such. (This mound is actually an ancient dwarven cairn of the Black Axe Clan. The inscriptions on the boulder are Dethek runes that relate the legend of the "Brave Beards." The rock itself lies atop the spot where the last defender of the dwarven rear guard, Dorn Black Axe, literally sank into the floor of the cavern.)[citation needed]
Sorry, tried to link it but even a copy and paste into the format wouldn't work because when you tried to follow it, it wouldn't recognize the Wikipedia page.
Sounds like a fun encounter area that you're building. If I ever come up and visit my friends in the Dakotas, I'll give you a holler. Maybe we can all get together and swap tales.
Good Hunting! |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 15:19:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
I actively enjoy caving as a hobby and am a chronic explorer of various caves though technically an amateur. So if you'd like to hear my personal observations feel free to read below.
With all the cramped crawly spaces I've slithered through I have yet to see what I would call an actual sandy beach while on a cave crawl. Lots of grit, silt, plenty of water and fantastic galleries but nothing like you would picture along what comes to mind when most of us say 'the beach'. Most of the water-filled spaces are just pools that come right up to the rock.
Yep, that's pretty much my experience when I've been in the caves in England's Peak District. Mostly there are pools in rocky hollows.
But then again there are vast stretches of water in the Underdark, which could generate sand with regular wave action.
And if you want a chuckle visit http://peakcavern.co.uk/ and find out what most locals call the main cavern. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 05:42:12
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I've never seen an actual beach except in pictures. Up here in North Dakota, the shoreline on the lakes are basically a gravel mixture of various sized rocks with smaller sand in it. Then again maybe all beaches were like that and they just drove a rock picking machine through the area to make it nice for beach goers. That's just a guess though. ;)
Just a couple miles from my house, we've got plenty of nice, sandy beach... But go south just a few miles, and there are some very large rocks that really get in the way if you're trying to splash around and have fun in the ocean. From what I've seen, though, that section of beach is kind of the exception, down here. And while I can't claim to have seen all of Florida's beaches, I've seen a lot of them, mostly on the Atlantic.
One thing most folks don't realize, though, is that some of our area beaches have to be periodically "revitalized" by city governments. People love to build houses and hotels and such right on the beach, which destroys the natural ecosystem that keeps the beach intact, causing serious beach erosion (particularly when a tropical storm or hurricane passes by). And then the city has to bring in tons of sand to restore what was washed away. A friend of mine, her parents make a very healthy living by finding sand for cities doing that -- apparently, there's something of a science to it, and you can't just say "here's some sand, let's use this!" |
| Arivia |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 01:41:49
Here's one-such reason theorized: kuo-toa being amphibious creatures probably like specific habitats in which to lay their eggs. A kuo-toan city like those described in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark and Underdark may have rocky, pebbly shores created as grand birthing shoals. Kuo-toa (or their slaves) spend laborious hours breaking up rocks, wetting them, and seeding them with substances like moss, fungus, or transplanted colonies of worms, bugs, and other such things. When a kuo-toan is fertile, she digs a shallow hole in part of the shore, leaving room for water to seep in. The eggs she lays - tiny things all bound up in a transparent egg sac - spend their first month or so growing inside the shore, eating the tiny bugs, being kept wet by the lake's water, and in a place of relative safety.
Of course, in return, ill-prepared PCs could be caught unawares by a swarm of tadpoles suddenly emerging beneath their feet, each with its own tiny hunger for flesh. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 01:12:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
Sorry Sage but, I would even hesitate to say I've even found what I'd consider a rocky/pebble-type 'beach'. Just some small deposits of debris here and there but far less common than even DDGttU made it seem. If you look closely enough (meaning you have a powerful enough light source since none of us have infra/darkvision) the debris is usually accounted for by something else - a broken stalactite for example.
Well, they weren't really common instances anyway. The tidbit I found in DDGttU seemed to suggest that it might just be a rare occurrence in a particular part of the Underdark.
For all we know, instances of rocky-shored islands in the Underdark may have been "artificially" constructed. In other words, purposely built by Underdark dwellers for whatever reasons they can fathom.
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| Eilserus |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 00:05:57
That's a pretty cool experience you have had Wolf. Sounds like fun but after watching that movie Descent, I don't know if I would ever go into a cave system. Get eaten by a crazy morlock thing! hehe. I was looking for perspectives on the idea of Underdark beaches or sandy shores and there has been lots of good discussion. I'm not too worried about things being entirely realistic, just within reason of an Underdark setting. I'm thinking gravel type shores in small areas might be alright, but nothing like sandy white beaches. I did have an idea of a small cove or area with black sand or grit from a volcanic event or some such. Have to look into that I guess.
I've never seen an actual beach except in pictures. Up here in North Dakota, the shoreline on the lakes are basically a gravel mixture of various sized rocks with smaller sand in it. Then again maybe all beaches were like that and they just drove a rock picking machine through the area to make it nice for beach goers. That's just a guess though. ;) |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 23:23:38
I actively enjoy caving as a hobby and am a chronic explorer of various caves though technically an amateur. So if you'd like to hear my personal observations feel free to read below.
My interest started when I made friends with a national park ranger at Mammoth Cave National Park while I was technically on a backpacking trip there. As our friendship progressed, he eventually invited me to accompany him and other personnel on a mapping trip, spending a week in what could be considered the real-world version of the underdark given that there are over 360 miles of surveyed tunnels in this cave system. During the trip we did plenty of wading and even went what could be considered swimming a time or two. And this is just the biggest cave I've been in. I've done other networks and vertical caves in a bunch other places including one in Arizona that was a network of old lava tubes.
With all the cramped crawly spaces I've slithered through I have yet to see what I would call an actual sandy beach while on a cave crawl. Lots of grit, silt, plenty of water and fantastic galleries but nothing like you would picture along what comes to mind when most of us say 'the beach'. Most of the water-filled spaces are just pools that come right up to the rock. Some areas may have various debris but it is extremely limited in my experience and nowhere close to what I would call sand.
Sorry Sage but, I would even hesitate to say I've even found what I'd consider a rocky/pebble-type 'beach'. Just some small deposits of debris here and there but far less common than even DDGttU made it seem. If you look closely enough (meaning you have a powerful enough light source since none of us have infra/darkvision) the debris is usually accounted for by something else - a broken stalactite for example.
If you were looking for real life perspective, I hope this helps. The only other thing I'd say is this: remember, this is YOUR Realms. Make them however makes the story of your campaign work for you - and don't let anyone tell you differently.
Good Hunting! |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 20:34:17
Otoh, waves together with the currents mainly transport the sand, not create it (exception on coast with significant wave action crashing and grinding away at the coast). Most sand is created in the rivers and streams which carry it downstream into lakes and seas. This is likely to occur in the Underdark as well, though the amount of currents and wave action will be likley less than in the Lands Above and sand is more likely sinking to the bottom (if any) of the deepest seas and lakes in the Night Below.
(I am not an expert on the matter, but am living in a river delta with lots of mudflats and no rocks where the sea's currents transport the sand created in Europe's inland rivers.) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 18:40:04
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
*It's kind of funny how a mini debate is going on about the probability of finding sand around a large underground body of water....in a world where you can find dragons, flying cities, and the walking dead. 
The world may have those things, but it also has gravity, erosion, and the progression of seasons. Just because some elements might be fantastic doesn't mean the rest of the setting can't follow the rules we all know. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 15:00:54
On the topic of sand: while I agree that wind plays into the creation of waves, and hence sand, it's important to realize that wind in the Underdark may come from places other than surface currents or lava ducts. For example, the Lake of Radiant Mists under Calimshan/Tethyr likely has sandy shores, just from the sheer amount of wind generated by Rringlor Noroth (the cloaker city nearby; see Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark.)
On the other hand, the Lake of Shadows has little such activity and is described as having rocky shores in City of the Spider Queen. I agree with Mumadar that such places would have rocky/pebbly shores if anything. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 13:53:14
*It's kind of funny how a mini debate is going on about the probability of finding sand around a large underground body of water....in a world where you can find dragons, flying cities, and the walking dead. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 02:21:26
Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark describes some islands in the Underdark as having "rock or rocky shores." |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 23:15:25
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
if sand is formed from wind,
Hmm, indirectly. Sand is made by waves. The waves pick up small rocks and stones and bash them together. Do this repeatedly and the rocks and stones get smaller and smaller until you get sand. Wind causes waves.
I'd go for the Moondeep Sea by the way. It looks reasonably big and it's in the upper dark so there might be wind from the surface, or a waterfall, or some other surface water carrying down sand.
|
| Fellfire |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 21:03:15
Google will of course yield you thousands of images, but this is a pretty good sampling.
and this pic is just funny. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 20:34:10
I haven't decided on size of lake. I'm guessing either I'll use the Lake of Shadows under the dales or maybe the Moondeep Sea since there hasn't been that much created on that area.
I was thinking, if sand is formed from wind, that would be an easy fix. If you have a big cool body of water, all you need is a heat source nearby to cause it, since wind is supposed to shift around excess heat in the air. Stick a tunnel that leads down to a lava flow somewhere should provide enough heat to mix it up maybe. :) |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 09:48:18
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I disagree, sand beaches could be common in the underdark.
Sand are light particles of rock, that flow with water. Underdark receives water from the surface, which includes light particles of rock. Tides effects that cause waves are not restricted to sea level. The occur above and below sea-level. To add to this, limestone and other rock can break into small pieces of rock.
Sand deposits (small pieces of rock) can and will occur where current allows it to settle. The beaches of the underdark will not be sun lighted but likely should exist based on waves, floods.
I agree that sand can be carried down into the Underdark. Similarly, where there is regular wave action or a continuous flowing of water stones will be agitated causing smaller particles to form.
However, tides do not cause waves. Wind does. The tidal effects caused by the moon will cause large bodies of water to regularly rise and ebb, but this only happens twice a day. Unlike the repeated attrition of waves.
Given that some of the bodies of water in the Underdark are very large, and that winds are also present in the Underdark whether magical or natural, and that silica is the most abundant mineral in the crust, then sand may well be common.
So perhaps the question for Eilserus is: how big is your 'big lake'? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 00:21:01
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I am by no means an expert on the matter. My reasoning being that deep in the Underdark, water would not flow in great quantities from the surface, rather it trickles down and percolates through the bedrock, which would act as a filter removing most of the particulate, to collect in vast underground lakes. Most pictures I have seen of subterranean lakes are very placid, disturbed very little by wave action. There would of course be dirt and organic matter, but sandy beaches like we see on the surface would be rarer because of the lack of erosion caused by wind and waves.
Well first I concede Toril does not always work like Earth. There are major water flows, the water-dock an example that runs into the underdark at high rates, only docks, locks and lifts prevents the entire surface seas filling the tunnels. Of course logic applies, maybe, that descended water rises to the surface in enough amount that even low flows fail to fill the caves and tunnels. Maybe it reaches low enough that lava turns into warm water vapor that rises to the surface. I will prefer the rare, not impossible, clearly none would be sun lite *G*. In the end maybe a question for ED. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 23:52:04
I am by no means an expert on the matter. My reasoning being that deep in the Underdark, water would not flow in great quantities from the surface, rather it trickles down and percolates through the bedrock, which would act as a filter removing most of the particulate, to collect in vast underground lakes. Most pictures I have seen of subterranean lakes are very placid, disturbed very little by wave action. There would of course be dirt and organic matter, but sandy beaches like we see on the surface would be rarer because of the lack of erosion caused by wind and waves. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 23:08:54
I disagree, sand beaches could be common in the underdark.
Sand are light particles of rock, that flow with water. Underdark receives water from the surface, which includes light particles of rock. Tides effects that cause waves are not restricted to sea level. The occur above and below sea-level. To add to this, limestone and other rock can break into small pieces of rock.
Sand deposits (small pieces of rock) can and will occur where current allows it to settle. The beaches of the underdark will not be sun lighted but likely should exist based on waves, floods. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 20:25:12
Thank you all. Many good ideas here. :) |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 19:41:21
I would say that for the most part, unless very near the surface, any islands in an Underdark cavern would be smooth limestone. Having played an Underdark campaign and googled thousands of pictures of caves and subterranean lakes, I have never seen anything resembling a sandy beach. So unless, there are some portals or other unnatural phenomenon the best you could hope for would be a slimy muck. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 15:32:34
Agreed. The default would be no beach, or a rocky/pebbly one, since you wouldn't have the wave action to break up the rock. However, additional forces could cause some sort of beach. Gate to the plane of air is one way, something a bit less exotic would be a river mouth or waterfall near the island. That would give the water action needed, plus would deposit whatever is upstream. If the river comes from the surface, you might end up with a beach of mixed sand and dirt. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 15:21:36
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Do islands in Underdark lakes or seas have sand on their shores?
Waves are caused by wind, so in the Underdark there won't be as much sand. However, if there are water-falls or rivers then there may well be sand, which is, after all, crushed up silica.
If the body of water is larger enough and there is a regular strong wind, such as a portal to the Plane of Air then there may be regular waves and that may mean sand. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 14:45:23
Just replicate the movie the Goonies but make it farther underground  |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 11:24:13
I'd reckon the underdark beaches will most likely be of the gravel/pebble kind instead of sandy. Most of the gravel and pebbles will be of the nearby rock strata, though depending on currents other types could be washed on the shore as well. |
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