| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Tyranthraxus |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 22:37:04
What kind of ships are common to the Moonshaes/Sword Coast area?
I'm starting a new campaign soon and I want to give the players a small seaworthy vessel early on, one that can be operated by 3-6 crew members. I was thinking of an outrigger but it seems out of place in that area. |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 14:57:51
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Carracks are described in Realms sources as 'primitive ships' and mentioned as 'old, leaky carracks', so making them out to be new would seem to be a mistake.
But in principle, some uses of our-world terms may be handy vague-equivalent translations of Realms words that would make the prose too foreign to use too many of untranslated.
Agreed on the vague-equivalent translation bit, yes.
This is related to the 'carrack' confusion, actually.
In the real world, there exist two types of waterborne vessel with a name similar to 'carrack'. There is the Irish 'currach' (Anglicised as 'curragh'), derived through the Middle Irish 'curach' from 'koroku', or 'leather-boat', probably from the PIE 'koro-' or 'leather'. The modern word 'coracle' for small boats evidently comes from the same Proto-Celtic root, through the Welsh.
This vessel is the primitive coastal craft made from hides, canvas or planks that several Realms sources, including Pirates of the Inner Sea and Sea of Fallen Stars have refered to as 'carrack/curragh'.
The real world term 'carrack', however, has no etymological connection with 'currach', despite the coincidental similarity. It is not original to the languages of the Atlantic European nations, but is borrowed from Arabic, derived from the plural of 'merchant ship', i.e. 'qaraqir', itself originally a loan-word from the Ancient Greek 'kerkourus' or 'shorn-tail'*. Beyond the Greek, scholars will tend to argue incessantly, so let it suffice to say that it may be derived through Akkadian from the Sumerian, but it may, in fact, have a completely different origin.
This type of ship was also known in the European languages as the nau, nao, nef or great ship. It described a type of ship which was the immediate fore-runner of galleons and to reduce a complex subject to facile generalisations, which can be helpful for the purposes of visualisation in a non-scholarly context, can be said to represent a fusion between the light and handy caravels of the Meditarranean and the largest of the northern Atlantic cargo ships***, intended for longer voyages than the smaller caravels could make, as well as being able to handle rougher waters.
The fact that the Realms has galleons probably also means that it has galleon-like vessels that are less advanced in sailing qualities. For it to be otherwise would have meant that galleons had been vouchsafed to humanity by an external agent fully-formed and in the time that humans had built them, no one had ever been tempted to cut costs and skimp on agility and weatherliness in order to get maximum cargo capacity slightly cheaper while still being able to handle normal weather anywhere but in the worst outer oceans.
Accounting for the fact that the word 'carrack' in most Realmslore is used for a very different thing indeed and authors have therefore probably been reluctant to use the correct word for the right thing (those who knew, that is), I do not take the lack of a specific term in Realmslore as evidence that this type of craft is entirely absent.
I suspect that in previous Realmslore, ships of this type have simply been refered to as 'ship' or even 'large caravel' or 'three-masted cog'. Alternatively, they could have been called by their current role, i.e. 'merchantman', 'warship' or 'trader' all of which would also have been historically accurate for English speakers.
*If you were wondering why merchant ships would be called 'shorn-tails', compare the shape of the hull of war galley, with the bow and stern both curving to a sharp point (more pronounced in the bow, but present in the stern as well) to increase speed and maneuverability to the shape of cargo craft, where the stern is flat, very much as if the tail of the vessel had been shorn off.
**Being, as described in the post above, not so much a different concept as simply a less refined application of the same principles of design.
***Themselves derived from a seperate ship-building heritage concentrated around the Baltic. The most recognisable name for them will be 'cog', but the hulk/holk was perhaps an intermediate type before they influenced the caravel design of the nations straddling the line between Atlantic and Mediterranean (Portugal, Spain). |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 21:06:30
Even if certain ship types might no longer be 'up-to-date' for maritime warfare/deterrence purposes, commerce would certainly use servicable ships and ship types for quite some time and the merchant fleet more than likely outstrips the combined navies. And technological advances don't have to go as fast on Toril as they did on Earth. Part of ship design was influenced by naval warfare and the use of guns - since there are almost no guns (i.e. fixed, non-mobile pieces of ship artillery) in the Realms, some of our world's advances in ship design might not yet have come to pass on Toril.
Deudermont's Clipper is an interesting one. Real world Clippers were primarily a result of the Tea Trade, where the need for fast transport for relatively light cargo was the deciding factor for advantage on the tea market. A similar need could have driven shipbuilders in the realms towards a clipper-like design. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 18:40:27
Carracks are described in Realms sources as 'primitive ships' and mentioned as 'old, leaky carracks', so making them out to be new would seem to be a mistake.
But in principle, some uses of our-world terms may be handy vague-equivalent translations of Realms words that would make the prose too foreign to use too many of untranslated. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 14:18:19
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was prolly a case where the author wasn't as familiar with the developments of naval history as others.
Or, since the Realms aren't Earth, maybe the one ship type wasn't developed as soon as the other, for some odd reason.
Realms isn't Earth, true.
On the other hand, a galleon is nothing but a carrack with the lines improved by experience. The real world dividing line is fuzzy, as real-world seperations of lines tend to be, but basically, if a carrack is streamlined, it can be called galleon.
So 'carrack' and 'galleon' make little sense as seperate developments. Galleon is just what carracks become over time, because sailors suggest all kinds of minute improvements in hull shape, rigging and the placing of the superstructures that would increase sailing qualities, weatherliness and speed to the shipbuilders.
Therefore, in a world where galleons are an old enough technology for there to be obselete variations of them doing duty as sheer hulks, prison hulks and training ships, carracks will exist. They are simply any large ship built with much the same methods as galleons, but less carefully designed for smooth, all-weather long-distance sailing and the agility required of a fighting ship*.
That doesn't mean that there is no reason to ever build a 'carrack' in a world In real world terms, if maximum cargo capacity for the minimun price point is an issue (as it always, always is, for bulk merchants) and there is no necessity for the maximum possible maneuverability or tolerance for truly high seas (carracks can be fairly weatherly compared to earlier ships, but less so than galleons and later ships), it is more efficient to ship goods in carracks.
So, navies, fighting sailors and those who sail the dangerous outer seas from Faerun to Maztica, Chult, Zakhara, Kara-Tur most likely prefer galleons, while those who just want to move goods without being tied to the shore (as earlier ships often were) still continue to buy the tried-and-true design of the carrack, for all that it is not as elegant.
*Well, for their size. Compared to smaller sailing vessels with decent sail plans and streamlined hulls (caravels and more advanced variations of that theme, i.e. what the Realms tends to call 'war caravels'), they are of course lumbering giants. Compared to oared warships, they take an eternity to change direction and have incredibly slow acceleration (though often comparable top speed). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 11:52:50
It was prolly a case where the author wasn't as familiar with the developments of naval history as others.
Or, since the Realms aren't Earth, maybe the one ship type wasn't developed as soon as the other, for some odd reason. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 11:34:33
Thats very true ,certainly it didnt take us 750 years to move on to galleons after the Age of Exploration began and maritime trade became truly international. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 06:31:14
It hurt my suspension of disbelief when Brian R. James posited 'carracks' as a new, revolutionary type of ship design on the Sword Coast (imported from the Inner Sea).
I can understand why people would want the FR world to have less advanced shipping, yes. But ret-conning a century or three is not the answer.
Given that Cormyr, Ravens Bluff and Sembia has galleons that are old enough to be used as prison or training ships (i.e. have lost any military appliations they might once have had), it is clear that Inner Sea shipbuilding is at a level where the primary powers have galleons or razed galleons (equivalent to frigates). If you could do it a generation ago (and the previous cutting-edge tech is now old enough to function as training vessels) and nothing happened in the meantime, it doesn't make sense that you'll suddenly view the precursor technology to your own as impressive.
That's like postulating repeating rifles and revolvers in a Western setting and then suddenly assume that flintlocks are cutting-edge tech.
Quite simply, any number of canon novels has included galleons and even more advanced, ship-rigged tall ships. Captain Deudermont's Sea Sprite is a 19th century clipper, for crying out loud!
I totally understand that some scribes feel that the timeline on shipping technology has advanced too fast. Personally, as it happens, I think that about 750 years from the last curraghs to a stable galleon technology is pretty fair. The Realms aren't frozen at one technological level any more than it is frozen at a climatic period or political situation. Changes are going to happen.
Since international trade in the Realms is canonically better than anything in Europe before the 19th century, it is nothing but logical that ships and navigation are closer to that level of technology than the medieval age. |
| Marquant Volker |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 20:43:12
Perhaps this scroll may help you
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9388&SearchTerms=Ships
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 02:29:21
Waterdeep is a capital city, not to mention the driving force behind the Lords' Alliance ... so merchants from far and wide (and even spelljammers) will make port there, and wherever heavy merchant cogs and caravels travel there will also be the galleons and other ships of war. And then there's other lucrative ports such as Baldur's Gate and the Moonshaes themselves.
So I'm with Sage - any ship from any land on Toril (and beyond) might be seen sailing the waters along the Sword Coast. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 00:16:36
Caravels and galleons, mostly. A few cogs and carracks have also been referenced in prior lore. Longships for the Northmen of the Moonshaes.
In fact, recalling most references, and the amount of sea-going traffic in the region, I'd imagine you'd probably find just about every type of ship already existing in the Realms running up and down the Sword Coast at some point. |
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