| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 22:07:37
Well, I've decided that Cyric has always been a fun part of our campaigns but he was never terribly GOOD at being the god of deception, lies, and deceit despite my attempts to portray him that way. The players never let go of their view of him as a omnicidal psychopath like the Joker only less entertaining because you can put the Joker in jail.
So, I've decided to kill Cyric. My assumption is he's been drastically weakened by his imprisonment (which I put in the "bottom layer of the Abyss" instead of his realm).
Player: Isn't the Abyss infinite?
Me: Yes.
Player: Ouch.
Me: Lathander is a lot nastier than anyone thinks.
But yes, I am in need of ideas on how exactly to finish the old guy off. Also, who would get his portfolios thereafter. I don't necessarily think the PCs need to be involved in Cyric's death but they could deal with the aftermath.
Thoughts? |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 08:06:43
Cyric cannot be contained by your writing.
He is the one, the all, and it my duty to slay those who deny his supreme divinity -pulls out dagger- |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 14:34:30
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
His worshipers murder people, such as each other?
He spreads lies (such as he is the one true god, etc.)
I think that particular heresy can only go so far.
quote:
Cyric is my favourite evil deity in the Forgotten Realms.
Even if a Bhaalspawn took on the portfolio of murder Cyric would still have madness, lies, and intrigue - assuming a demipower with a handful of worshipers could hold his own against a greater deity.
Given Cyric is imprisoned at the bottom of his plane (The Abyss in my game), it's not like he could do anything about it anyway. However, by the time of the Bhaalspawn's ascension, Cyric was a demipower. Intrigue, Lies, and Illusion went to Tiamat with Mask getting a portion of Intrigue (he's now the god of spies, forgery, false witness and so on as well as the god of assassins).
In general, if it's criminal and intelligent, its Masks.
quote:
A neutral deity CAN'T support killing anyone by the definitions of alignments outlined in the D&D universe, too.
An amoral deity of Death seems pretty rational to me. One which is neither malevolent or beneficial, just a force of destruction and doom. If you want to call it Neutral Evil just like Umberlee is Chaotic Evil or Talos (despite neither really being traditionally malevolent) go ahead. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 09:12:22
His worshipers murder people, such as each other?
He spreads lies (such as he is the one true god, etc.)
Cyric is my favourite evil deity in the Forgotten Realms.
Even if a Bhaalspawn took on the portfolio of murder Cyric would still have madness, lies, and intrigue - assuming a demipower with a handful of worshipers could hold his own against a greater deity.
A neutral deity CAN'T support killing anyone by the definitions of alignments outlined in the D&D universe, too. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 18:51:40
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Cyric failed? He's done more work in a few years than all other gods combined
I don't know, Cyric's success is questionable in my mind. Mostly because I don't consider anything he does PERSONALLY to count. Mystra slaying Asmodeus, for example, is treating her like a giant PC as opposed to a god.
What's Cyric done to promote murder and darkness IN THE REALMS with his WORSHIPERS basically?
In any case, we had a surprising shift from our PCs who finished their Baldur's Gate inspired game so Cyric has finally perished in my campaign only to be replaced with a Neutral Bhaal (one who supports any killing by anyone).
And yes, I'm post Spellplague. I appreciate everyone's input, btw.
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| Rhewtani |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 14:28:58
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Forgotten Realms Adventures
Today only - your link doesn't work.  |
| Quale |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 14:20:05
Cyric failed? He's done more work in a few years than all other gods combined |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 08:10:03
My proselytizing isn't work .... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 07:26:34
Forgotten Realms Adventures |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 05:41:39
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It's interesting that one of the divinely granted powers of Cyric's priests (specified in the 2E FRA) is a special ability to convert followers and priests away from Bhaal, Myrkul, and Bane. All that is required to make the attempt is one hour of speaking directly to the target about unholy Cyric's new glory, and apparently any number of attempts might be made so very few (namely, PCs) can hope to resist becoming receptive to Cyric's compulsions indefinitely. I assume that many Bhaalists and Banites must be forcibly restrained during these persuasive teachings, although apparently Myrkul's followers generally embrace "Cyruk" with greater readiness.
What is this? |
| Therise |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 02:27:55
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Like little pocket cyrinishads.
LOL that's hilarious! 
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| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 00:57:12
Cyric has always been divine.
The one the all
You blasphemers shall tremble when his divine wrath consumes you! |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 17 Jan 2012 : 19:10:59
Like little pocket cyrinishads. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jan 2012 : 18:27:15
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It's interesting that one of the divinely granted powers of Cyric's priests (specified in the 2E FRA) is a special ability to convert followers and priests away from Bhaal, Myrkul, and Bane. All that is required to make the attempt is one hour of speaking directly to the target about unholy Cyric's new glory, and apparently any number of attempts might be made so very few (namely, PCs) can hope to resist becoming receptive to Cyric's compulsions indefinitely. I assume that many Bhaalists and Banites must be forcibly restrained during these persuasive teachings, although apparently Myrkul's followers generally embrace "Cyruk" with greater readiness.
Is this "special power" delivered as something of a simple lecture, a reading of Cyric's canon to educate and inform followers of the Dead Three about the events transpiring towards Cyric's ascension? Or is it something far more insidious, such as a sort of forced mind-melded communion in which the converting priest directs the victim's attentions through visions of Cyric's exalted unholiness, a spiritual infection which brings nightmares and anguish?
I would imagine it's some sort of charm, based at least in part on spinning the dogma of the fallen deity and showing how Cyric is the new steward of that dogma. Much more beyond that, and I'd expect the Cyricists to try using it on anyone they meet, regardless of existing religion. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Jan 2012 : 15:07:19
It's interesting that one of the divinely granted powers of Cyric's priests (specified in the 2E FRA) is a special ability to convert followers and priests away from Bhaal, Myrkul, and Bane. All that is required to make the attempt is one hour of speaking directly to the target about unholy Cyric's new glory, and apparently any number of attempts might be made so very few (namely, PCs) can hope to resist becoming receptive to Cyric's compulsions indefinitely. I assume that many Bhaalists and Banites must be forcibly restrained during these persuasive teachings, although apparently Myrkul's followers generally embrace "Cyruk" with greater readiness.
Is this "special power" delivered as something of a simple lecture, a reading of Cyric's canon to educate and inform followers of the Dead Three about the events transpiring towards Cyric's ascension? Or is it something far more insidious, such as a sort of forced mind-melded communion in which the converting priest directs the victim's attentions through visions of Cyric's exalted unholiness, a spiritual infection which brings nightmares and anguish? |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 17 Jan 2012 : 05:47:08
The Dark Sun will prevail! Creator of destiny, binder of souls, and Lord of the Universe. All the Gods will bow before his infinite might, wisdom, and power. The Gods who are but chattel will grovel in his profane presence.
In the time of carnage the rivers will run with the blood of unfaithful. Our blades will slice their throats as we creep in the shadows. Our lies will turn them against one another, and in the end only the anointed will remain. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 01:39:41
I can't recall whether you said your campaign was pre- or post-Spellplague, but in terms of Bhaal seizing the Revenge Portfolio in the afterward of the Spellplague, you could suggest that the loss of Unther impacted upon Assuran/Hoar's overall power -- and thus made him a ripe target for the resurrected Bhaal. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 01:13:22
Good point.
Our game has a running plot about dead gods and it'll be fun to see if alongside Myrkul, Bhaal doesn't come back.
Maybe he could be god of Murder, Assassins, Poisons, Revenge (goodbye Hoar), and Curses.
Which would be a pretty decent portfolio, albeit probably only Lesser God status. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 00:57:08
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
However, were I to raise Bhaal, does anyone know what Portfolios he would have?
It's not completely outside the realm of possibility for a resurrected Bhaal to reclaim his lost portfolios -- provided they're either currently unclaimed [since his death] in your campaign or stolen from whichever deity now has them according to your own divine framework for the game.
Well Bhaal was just flat out the God of Death so he'd basically just be reclaiming Murder and half of Kelemvor's portfolio. At least as I remember my original Realms sourcebook. I don't think he had any more portfolios other than Death, did he?
No, just Death.
I was mainly speaking in terms of your own campaign, though. I thought maybe the dynamics and divine oversight of Bhaal may have been a little different in your Realms. I wasn't sure whether you were talking about the canon Bhaal or not, so that's why I started rambling about him picking up other similarly-related portfolios, if Death had already been claimed by another deity. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 16:53:52
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
However, were I to raise Bhaal, does anyone know what Portfolios he would have?
It's not completely outside the realm of possibility for a resurrected Bhaal to reclaim his lost portfolios -- provided they're either currently unclaimed [since his death] in your campaign or stolen from whichever deity now has them according to your own divine framework for the game.
Well Bhaal was just flat out the God of Death so he'd basically just be reclaiming Murder and half of Kelemvor's portfolio. At least as I remember my original Realms sourcebook. I don't think he had any more portfolios other than Death, did he?
Faiths & Avatars lists his portfolio as "Death, especially violent or ritual death" and that's it. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:34:05
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
However, were I to raise Bhaal, does anyone know what Portfolios he would have?
It's not completely outside the realm of possibility for a resurrected Bhaal to reclaim his lost portfolios -- provided they're either currently unclaimed [since his death] in your campaign or stolen from whichever deity now has them according to your own divine framework for the game.
Well Bhaal was just flat out the God of Death so he'd basically just be reclaiming Murder and half of Kelemvor's portfolio. At least as I remember my original Realms sourcebook. I don't think he had any more portfolios other than Death, did he? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:32:29
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
However, were I to raise Bhaal, does anyone know what Portfolios he would have?
It's not completely outside the realm of possibility for a resurrected Bhaal to reclaim his lost portfolios -- provided they're either currently unclaimed [since his death] in your campaign or stolen from whichever deity now has them according to your own divine framework for the game. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:15:55
Well, I play Tiamat like Takhasis who was all about Illusion and Lies. Besides, I actually am big on most of the gods of evil not being ridiculously cartoonishly evil. It's kind of weird but Cyric, Shar, Lolth, and Bane are the only ones I really treat as "enemies of the world" as opposed to just unpleasant entities. Tiamat is actually pretty subdued by comparison.
(The PCs are on pretty friendly terms with Mask by comparison and one player said hating Talos is ridiculous since he's like a kid playing with fire)
But yes, the gods play a ridiculously large role in my games like Greek Mythology. I'm one of those guys who basically thinks they show up to chat on occasion in Avatar form. I have Eberron for my "distant and removed" gods.
However, were I to raise Bhaal, does anyone know what Portfolios he would have? I'd be going with the LE version rather than the CE. One of the things I try and avoid is redundancy in my deities and I try to give each of them a visible and distinct personality. Garagos, for example, is the god of "Murder/Pillage/BLARG!" psycho behavior. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 07:16:10
Why not just not use him if you don't like him? Do you mention every single god and character wehn you're playing? My characters never seem to care or even remember who the Gods are : / I have to say things like "Chauntea is like Demeter..." over and over. I find Cyric fascinating and don't see a reason for his worshipers to abandon him. Madness, irrational chaotic fanaticism, etc. seem like a niche that needs to be filled. The novels based around him practically made me want to fanatically worship him = P
Tiamat does not seem to fit illusion and lies to me at all, she is Lawful and nothing i've ever read about her suggests she cares for things like that. I would return Leira to life somehow (the spellplague = D? Sending her worshipers to pray on her corpse in the astral plane?) Deception and lies are not inherently evil IMO. Leira would be the ideal, and perfect usurper of his power over illusion/deception.
Lolth seems more murderous to me than Mask. I'm not even sure I think Mask should be evil considering he was based on Hermes according to Ed Greenwood. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 23:22:05
Well, I'd reverse that personally. Cyric doing all of his dirty-work personally is exactly the sort of thing that Ao warned against with the Time of Troubles to begin with - you're not supposed to forget your followers and being more focused on personal vengeance than spreading lies, illusion, and so on would be bad news.
In any case, here's my personal take on the subject that I welcome the ideas for.
Basically, Cyric has been bound at the bottom of the Abyss by Amaunator (with Torm and Sune's help) with his own entrails (eww) as he's tied to the surface of the Elemental Evil and slowly burned away. Cyric swiftly loses the Portfolios of Lies and Illusions which go to Tiamat (who I run very similar to Takhasis). Strife, much to the annoyance of Bane, ends up going into the hands of Talos.
Which leaves Cyric as little more than a Demigod holding onto the Portfolio of Murder. The PCs end up getting recruited, unbeknonwst to them, by an Aspect of Cyric who broke away long ago called "The Prince of Madness." This will lead them in a funhouse mirror like adventure through Cyrics mind which will eventually allow him to escape into the physical world. What Cyric doesn't realize it's only as a mortal and the PCs are allowed to finish him off.
His soul is sent to Kelemvor as Cyric's essence in the Abyss finally burns away forever and the portfolio of murder goes to Mask or Lolth (I haven't decided yet). |
| Therise |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 23:11:39
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Cyric failed as the god of Murder. It is proven that he failed to murder Mystra, Savras, and Azuth. The evidence shows that while he had the intent to do so, he did not strike the final blow against Mystra but allowed a mortal to do so and then took credit himself. The deaths of Savras and Azuth were unexpected and accidental, a result of Mystra's death in her own plane.
Whoza? Whatza? I am missing something novel wise? A mortal you say?
Do fill me in...quite curious there...
Well, none of my post was actual lore, just some ideas for how to take Cyric off the map for Charles' home game.
That particular point, the "mortal striking down Mystra" was one way that the Savras-inspired vision of Mystra's murder -might- be taken (from the scene where she gets whacked with Azuth's staff), but since it was a vision it can't be considered fact. It's possible that the mortal handed Cyric the staff, or it's entirely possible that something else happened entirely. Visions of what the gods do are apparently very subject to imagery and interpretation.
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| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 21:50:44
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Cyric failed as the god of Murder. It is proven that he failed to murder Mystra, Savras, and Azuth. The evidence shows that while he had the intent to do so, he did not strike the final blow against Mystra but allowed a mortal to do so and then took credit himself. The deaths of Savras and Azuth were unexpected and accidental, a result of Mystra's death in her own plane.
Whoza? Whatza? I am missing something novel wise? A mortal you say?
Do fill me in...quite curious there... |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 08:22:11
I don't know if it would work for Leira, one of the fun bits of Realmslore in my game is that rather than just use Tiamat as another Bane I introduced her as a trickster and that Leira was actually an aspect of her. I imagine Mask (who lives!) was extremely vexed to find that out when she became more prominent in the Realms.
Then again, that might just add to Cyric's troubles.
Bhaal is deader than dead since Bhaalspawn were a major part of my previous campaign (way back in 2005) but which ended in the PCs killing Bhaal's mortal soul transformed into a Pit Fiend in the Nine Hells.
Of course, Bhaal actually HAS been commented on by the PCs as having been a lot classier god than Cyric. Which, frankly, is a bizarre statement to make since I've always played him as a complete psychopath (albeit highly intelligent). It might be interesting to see their reaction if the gods are considering reviving Bhaal to replace Cyric.
One thing I was thinking about is that it might be interesting also to see the Gods of Good just do their jobs for once. Yeah, it's Cyric's job to promote murder, strife, and intrigue. However, it's Torm and Bahamut's job to promote civilization and justice. It was something missing from Prince of Lies that while AO couldn't judge him - Tyr and Lathander certainly could. They'd just have to do it the old fashioned way.
But yeah, you could make an argument that Cyric has brought the Realms to a new Dark Age of Strife and Horror but I'm not sure that he's promoting his portfolio WITH HIS FOLLOWERS - which is what he's supposed to do. Cyric isn't supposed to be doing all this legwork himself. |
| Therise |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 00:19:22
Personally, I think Cyric has always been incompetent and rather something of a buffoon as he's been presented in novels. And honestly, I wouldn't make him seem interesting or give any reason to change that perception while you accomplish his removal. Make it all "behind the scenes" except for the fact that his clergy start abandoning him in droves. Regular people should start using his name in concert with "idiot" or things that go really awry, "that was a Cyric plan" (meaning, "it went completely bad"). His very name should become synonymous with grand incompetence, a laughable slur.
Up in the heavens, three gods (or godly representatives) come together to accuse Cyric of gross incompetence and total mishandling of his portfolio, as well as gross negligence of the Grand Design. The gods meet to hear their evidence, and Cyric is (perhaps by Ao, perhaps by "fate" or the gods in concert) stripped of all his powers and portfolios. His now-mortal body is cast back down to Faerun, and he is murdered in some back alley by a nameless crook. End of story.
The evidence?
Cyric failed as the god of Murder. It is proven that he failed to murder Mystra, Savras, and Azuth. The evidence shows that while he had the intent to do so, he did not strike the final blow against Mystra but allowed a mortal to do so and then took credit himself. The deaths of Savras and Azuth were unexpected and accidental, a result of Mystra's death in her own plane.
Cyric failed as the god of Deception/Illusion/Lies. Cyric's personal desire for revenge against Mystra led him to boldly attack Mystra without using any deception. Further, he could not cover his tracks and was almost instantly caught by the other gods. When pressed, Cyric told the truth about planning and leading the attack against Mystra and Dweomerheart.
Cyric failed as the god of Intrigue. It is shown that every recent action by Cyric has been very open and upfront, both in intent and execution of those plans. Similarly, his mortal followers on Faerun are rarely, if ever, encouraged to operate with hidden plans or motives. (One specific example is the Cyricist priest in Baldur's Gate 2: SoA that boldly runs up to the party and demands they convert to Cyric's worship or die; another example is how the followers of a dead deity took over Cyric's "hidden" temple on the Wayrock and re-dedicated it to Mask, with no reprisal on Cyric's part). Absence of intrigue harms his followers.
Cyric failed as the god of Strife. Although it could be argued that the accidentally unleashed Spellplague was one of the greatest strife-causing events in history, it also threatened the Grand Design - which no deity is allowed to do. Instead, Cyric allowed the god Bane to regain his ascendance and position, losing those powers and abilities. His failure in every aspect of his portfolios is shown to be complete.
Finally, Cyric endangered the Grand Design by attempting to kill Mystra. This alone was why he had been imprisoned before, but now - and because of the evidence proving his incopetence with his portfolios and godly powers - together this is enough to warrant removing his godhood altogether. Eventually he will be completely forgotten, and even his soul (when he dies) will find no purchase with any deity other than the Wall of the Faithless where the last of his essence will be utterly and permanently destroyed.
Done. 
Oh, and the three gods who bring the charges?
- Leira, who has managed to hold on to enough of her power that she remained hidden until now. For her cleverness and survivability in order to bring the charges against Cyric, she is given the portfolios of deception, lies and illusion. She has been lying and in hiding this whole time, without help from any other deity.
- Bhaal, who has reincorporated himself following the murder of the final Bhaalspawn (a half-elf in hiding, who did not participate in the events of BG1 or BG2 SoA/ToB). A small but fiercely loyal cult devoted to Bhaal survived and its leader finally traced the final Bhaalspawn to Waterdeep. Cyric had no knowledge of this, and therefore could not stop him. Bhaal is restored as the god of Murder.
- either Velsharoon or Savras, depending on who you'd prefer. This god has the direct, first hand testimony of what really happened in Dweomerheart.
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| Marquant Volker |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 23:06:27
Some ideas:
Cyric as mortal went throught a lot in order to gain Godhood and power, for that reason i believe his greatest punishment could be the reversal to his mortal body. He could be mortal and powerless once again, while his hated rivals in life remains as Gods (Kelemvor, Mystra/Midnight) that could drive him insane...if he wasnt already.
It could also create a lot of gaming opportunitities, his faithfull trying to help him (perhaps because they think he's still a God and he is testing them, a notion he will strive to aknowledge), he's enemies might hunt him down. Of course he will be trying to attend Godhood again.
Perhaps his new mortal body will be that of a newborn baby (a rival God did that to mock him , or something/someone else in order to conceal him) |
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