| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 14:04:56
I think Elaine Cunningham created a wonderful group of obnoxious paladins in Thornhold. The book could have been more balanced with a positive portrayal of paladins but the Knights of Samular have since become a often source of headaches in my campaign.
It was never a question in our games for whether the order would eventually turn evil but when and it happened over the Spellplague in our games. While Cyric was the one subverting the group in Thornhold, my version is going to be serving Bane.
I am interested in seeing how it might be expanded and any ideas people might have. The idea of a group of paladins unknowingly serving Bane is a hard sell by itself, but I think it is a great opportunity to do the kind of psychotic religious fanatics that are such great villains in fantasy fiction.
Plus, it gives the Paladins an opportunity to redeem or destroy the order.
Knights of Samular
Fear, Tyranny, Hatred.
These are hard sells.
However, actions speak louder than words and the Knights of Samular are now the perfect vessels for Bane to spread his idealogy and gain power. In the words of Yoda, Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, and Hate leads to fascist theocratic dictatorships.
The loss of Tyr hit the Knights of Samular hard, really hard. Having your deity murder another major god of good (even if Helm wasn't, technically) before committing suicide - only to have his substitute be a church that many of the Knights considered something of a jumped up upstart - well it was a bad time.
Throw in the Spellplague and a time of unprecedented suffering for the world and many Knights of Samular lost their faith. Some served valiantly, whether under Torm or Ilmater or Bahamut. However, others became obsessed with the fault lying in the goddess of magic or not being sufficiently hard enough in their actions.
That was when the Prophet of the Autocrat came. The Autocrat was a god who all other gods of law were pale imitations of. He taught the reason for the world's chaos was simple: evil existed and it was tolerated by the weak. The Prophet did not immediately teach burning every witch, instead he focused the Knights on the worst of the worst.
Protection gave way to preemptively attacking the monsters. Undead, Lycanthropes, and hideous creatures produced by the Spellplague.
Extreme measures WORKED for a time, especially with the adulation the people gave to Knights as they seemed to be some of the few forces for stability in the realms.
To make a long story short, after a few generations, the Knights of Samular became a group of crazed fanatics. They torture and kill humanoids with a tremendous zeal - believing it is the right path. Their paladin abilities, likewise, detect themselves as "good" and those who oppose them as evil.
What's worse? The group is actually quite popular in many places across the Sword Coast. Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate is filled with worshipers of the Autocrat who find the ideology of anything too far from the norm being monsters. Dwarves and Humans find the religion likable, though elves always seem to pick up the religion as a danger.
The group is not PRECISELY anti-magic but it is hostile to any that are not firmly allied with it. |
| 6 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 23:23:43
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Well, lets keep the perspective of the times. Theres lots of unrest, chaos, and monsters lurking pretty much everywhere it's un-civilized. That calls for law, order, and probably bloodshed. Who better to deal with such problems than a strong, militant hand? The Knights of Samular work at restoring order. Sure, they're a bit oppressive, but that's nothing compared to rampaging brutes and destructive liches knocking on the door of civlized cities and the like.
The question is, how long can people just hand-way their "Might for Right" and "The ends justify the means" mentality? How many civilan bodies will it take for them to realize that they're conquoring tyrants? Don't think for a minute that the Knights of Samular's "protection" is free. I'd expect them to have people convert to their congregation for their services.......or else.
From a mechanics standpoint, Paladins aren't tied to alignment anymore so theres nothing wrong with Evil or questionable tactics. They might believe their gaining their power from a goodly source, but in all reality, they'll likely be gaining it from Bane directly.
Yeah, that's more or less my view on the subject. I was basically envisioning them as Blackguards similar to Elena Faithhold from the old Ravenloft campaign setting. It's just instead of dressing like Darth Vader they dress like Jaime Lannister.
Very good note on 4E D&D service.
quote:
originally posted by Ayrik
I'm personally a little apprehensive about paladins serving categorically evil gods.
To use an old 2nd Edition word, I suppose technically they'd be Anti-Paladins. It's just instead of raising armies of demons and so on, they're keeping the populace in a continued state of Fear and Hate by persecuting people they don't like.
(The aesop is a bit obvious since in my games you have Goblins living in Waterdeep and Drow now since the Spellplague forced so many people together - Eberron wasn't entirely my cup of tea but I liked that element)
I was also partially inspired by the Order of the Silver Hand in Skyrim.
quote:
But I find it difficult to accept the notion of characters who aspire to noble righteousness acting as base thugs and bullies. Would they not recognize harsh injustice while enforcing the laws decreed by their patron?
In 2E I got around this issue by saying that Helm's corrupt clergy often included "warrior priests" who were functionally indistinguishable from paladins who were Cleric/Fighters who could use Bladed weapons. Really, from the perspective of the populace as a whole, it was pretty hard to distinguish them.
To answer your question, I imagine the Knights of Samular's original Paladins were apprehensive and probably included a number of people who either resigned in disgust over the increasing corruption of their ideals or actually turned against the order.
I suspect it'd be cool to note plenty of them ended up in the Order of the Radiant Heart (who I took from Baldur's Gate and is sort of a Harpers for Lawful Good religious types) or formed their own orders.
In fact, it might be fun to find out there's a secret sect within the group trying to reform it or find those who still hold to the ideals of the Triad.
quote:
originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I hate to say it, this seems more like a Cyric gig than a Bane gig. Cyric's influence there is already canon, and we know Cyric has in the past delighted in impersonating other deities to lead the faithful astray. Plus, this is deception, which Cyric got when he murdered Leira, and it will cause strife, which is also his gig.
So yeah, as much as I hate Cyric, he seems a more logical choice for this idea. IMO, of course.
I was originally going to use Cyric in this role actually. However, I ended up with the question of how exactly a group of LE psychos (with a lot of rank and file LN members) would end up serving his interests. In the end, I decided to go with Bane because I had another idea for Cyric.
(I hope it'll redeem that deity in my games) |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 23:19:32
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Well, lets keep the perspective of the times. Theres lots of unrest, chaos, and monsters lurking pretty much everywhere it's un-civilized. That calls for law, order, and probably bloodshed. Who better to deal with such problems than a strong, militant hand? The Knights of Samular work at restoring order. Sure, they're a bit oppressive, but that's nothing compared to rampaging brutes and destructive liches knocking on the door of civlized cities and the like.
The question is, how long can people just hand-way their "Might for Right" and "The ends justify the means" mentality? How many civilan bodies will it take for them to realize that they're conquoring tyrants? Don't think for a minute that the Knights of Samular's "protection" is free. I'd expect them to have people convert to their congregation for their services.......or else.
From a mechanics standpoint, Paladins aren't tied to alignment anymore so theres nothing wrong with Evil or questionable tactics. They might believe their gaining their power from a goodly source, but in all reality, they'll likely be gaining it from Bane directly.
Yeah, that's more or less my view on the subject. I was basically envisioning them as Blackguards similar to Elena Faithhold from the old Ravenloft campaign setting. It's just instead of dressing like Darth Vader they dress like Jaime Lannister.
Very good note on 4E D&D service.
quote:
originally posted by Ayrik
I'm personally a little apprehensive about paladins serving categorically evil gods.
To use an old 2nd Edition word, I suppose technically they'd be Anti-Paladins. It's just instead of raising armies of demons and so on, they're keeping the populace in a continued state of Fear and Hate by persecuting people they don't like.
(The aesop is a bit obvious since in my games you have Goblins living in Waterdeep and Drow now since the Spellplague forced so many people together - Eberron wasn't entirely my cup of tea but I liked that element)
I was also partially inspired by the Order of the Silver Hand in Skyrim.
quote:
But I find it difficult to accept the notion of characters who aspire to noble righteousness acting as base thugs and bullies. Would they not recognize harsh injustice while enforcing the laws decreed by their patron?
In 2E I got around this issue by saying that Helm's corrupt clergy often included "warrior priests" who were functionally indistinguishable from paladins who were Cleric/Fighters who could use Bladed weapons. Really, from the perspective of the populace as a whole, it was pretty hard to distinguish them.
To answer your question, I imagine the Knights of Samular's original Paladins were apprehensive and probably included a number of people who either resigned in disgust over the increasing corruption of their ideals or actually turned against the order.
I suspect it'd be cool to note plenty of them ended up in the Order of the Radiant Heart (who I took from Baldur's Gate and is sort of a Harpers for Lawful Good religious types) or formed their own orders.
In fact, it might be fun to find out there's a secret sect within the group trying to reform it or find those who still hold to the ideals of the Triad.
quote:
originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I hate to say it, this seems more like a Cyric gig than a Bane gig. Cyric's influence there is already canon, and we know Cyric has in the past delighted in impersonating other deities to lead the faithful astray. Plus, this is deception, which Cyric got when he murdered Leira, and it will cause strife, which is also his gig.
So yeah, as much as I hate Cyric, he seems a more logical choice for this idea. IMO, of course.
I was originally going to use Cyric in this role actually. However, I ended up with the question of how exactly a group of LE psychos (with a lot of rank and file LN members) would end up serving his interests. In the end, I decided to go with Bane because I had another idea for Cyric.
(I hope it'll redeem that deity in my games)
[/quote] |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 23:12:24
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Well, lets keep the perspective of the times. Theres lots of unrest, chaos, and monsters lurking pretty much everywhere it's un-civilized. That calls for law, order, and probably bloodshed. Who better to deal with such problems than a strong, militant hand? The Knights of Samular work at restoring order. Sure, they're a bit oppressive, but that's nothing compared to rampaging brutes and destructive liches knocking on the door of civlized cities and the like.
The question is, how long can people just hand-way their "Might for Right" and "The ends justify the means" mentality? How many civilan bodies will it take for them to realize that they're conquoring tyrants? Don't think for a minute that the Knights of Samular's "protection" is free. I'd expect them to have people convert to their congregation for their services.......or else.
From a mechanics standpoint, Paladins aren't tied to alignment anymore so theres nothing wrong with Evil or questionable tactics. They might believe their gaining their power from a goodly source, but in all reality, they'll likely be gaining it from Bane directly.
Yeah, that's more or less my view on the subject. I was basically envisioning them as Blackguards similar to Elena Faithhold from the old Ravenloft campaign setting. It's just instead of dressing like Darth Vader they dress like Jaime Lannister.
Very good note on 4E D&D service.
quote:
originally posted by Ayrik I'm personally a little apprehensive about paladins serving categorically evil gods.
To use an old 2nd Edition word, I suppose technically they'd be Anti-Paladins. It's just instead of raising armies of demons and so on, they're keeping the populace in a continued state of Fear and Hate by persecuting people they don't like.
(The aesop is a bit obvious since in my games you have Goblins living in Waterdeep and Drow now since the Spellplague forced so many people together - Eberron wasn't entirely my cup of tea but I liked that element)
quote:
But I find it difficult to accept the notion of characters who aspire to noble righteousness acting as base thugs and bullies. Would they not recognize harsh injustice while enforcing the laws decreed by their patron?
In 2E I got around this issue by saying that Helm's corrupt clergy often included "warrior priests" who were functionally indistinguishable from paladins who were Cleric/Fighters who could use Bladed weapons. Really, from the perspective of the populace as a whole, it was pretty hard to distinguish them.
To answer your question, I imagine the Knights of Samular's original Paladins were apprehensive and probably included a number of people who either resigned in disgust over the increasing corruption of their ideals or actually turned against the order.
I suspect it'd be cool to note plenty of them ended up in the Order of the Radiant Heart (who I took from Baldur's Gate and is sort of a Harpers for Lawful Good religious types) or formed their own orders.
In fact, it might be fun to find out there's a secret sect within the group trying to reform it or find those who still hold to the ideals of the Triad. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 18:10:27
As much as I hate to say it, this seems more like a Cyric gig than a Bane gig. Cyric's influence there is already canon, and we know Cyric has in the past delighted in impersonating other deities to lead the faithful astray. Plus, this is deception, which Cyric got when he murdered Leira, and it will cause strife, which is also his gig.
So yeah, as much as I hate Cyric, he seems a more logical choice for this idea. IMO, of course. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 17:49:42
I'm personally a little apprehensive about paladins serving categorically evil gods.
Yes, it can provide fascinating story and background about both the paladins and their gods. Yes, the machinations of the gods are said to be beyond mortal understandings. Yes, paladins can be misled and even misguided, they are after all human and subject to human flaws. And yes, some paladins are better than others; some are little better than the bandits and outlaws they bring to justice.
But I find it difficult to accept the notion of characters who aspire to noble righteousness acting as base thugs and bullies. Would they not recognize harsh injustice while enforcing the laws decreed by their patron? Would they obliviously submerge their compassion and mercy under the heavy yoke of oppression and tyranny? Would they not question, challenge, defy, and ultimately abandon the cruel dictates required by the duties imposed upon them? Could they not detect evil intent within their own souls, would their hands not be so covered in the blood of innocents they are unable to lay their holy healing touch? A god like Bane is masterfully cunning and patient but also unbendingly lustful and treacherous, he cannot long tolerate lost opportunities to establish his order, exert his strength upon the weak, and destroy all those who oppose his will. Any paladin possessing half a brain cell and even the slightest whisper of conscience would become deeply concerned by the troubling service a Bane-god demands of him.
Of course, having all said that, there are a number of paladin-inspired variant classes which range across all the other alignments. One of the LE versions, the Unholy Tyrant, would be an ideal template for minions of Bane. They are not true paladins, regardless whether they (and their laws) demand they be called such. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 15:21:53
Well, lets keep the perspective of the times. Theres lots of unrest, chaos, and monsters lurking pretty much everywhere it's un-civilized. That calls for law, order, and probably bloodshed. Who better to deal with such problems than a strong, militant hand? The Knights of Samular work at restoring order. Sure, they're a bit oppressive, but that's nothing compared to rampaging brutes and destructive liches knocking on the door of civlized cities and the like.
The question is, how long can people just hand-way their "Might for Right" and "The ends justify the means" mentality? How many civilan bodies will it take for them to realize that they're conquoring tyrants? Don't think for a minute that the Knights of Samular's "protection" is free. I'd expect them to have people convert to their congregation for their services.......or else.
From a mechanics standpoint, Paladins aren't tied to alignment anymore so theres nothing wrong with Evil or questionable tactics. They might believe their gaining their power from a goodly source, but in all reality, they'll likely be gaining it from Bane directly. |
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