| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 12 Oct 2011 : 20:52:44
I want this thread's purpose to be to discuss potential ways the Red Wizards function in the future. Possibly ignoring the brief description we get in 4th edition stuff, and ignoring the changes in 4th edition that don't make sense to us.
I view them as a global crime/trade consortium sort of like the Zhentarim. Presumably during the Zulkir wars and then under Szass Tam's reign huge numbers of Thayans with the ability would have fled the nation and gone to trade enclaves all over the world. I'd view these new Red Wizards as trading nomads who want to reclaim their homeland from Szass Tam.
Some of the Zulkirs, in my imagination, would have had a way to survive the final conflict. Other Red Wizards would claim the title of other Zulkirs. Possibly multiple Red Wizards claiming the same title of Zulkir when they are geographically spread so wide. (A wizard in Sossal might not even know someone claims to be the Zulkir or Conjuration in Chult, or whatever)
Diviners, abjurers, etc. don't have 4th edition stats (I think?) but we can just ignore that for now.
How would such an organization work?
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Yaphyll sent half of her self into the future when she divined the SP.
Nevron might have managed to make himself inconspicuous in Hell during his existence as a mane and eventually regained his real form and translated back to Faerun.
How do we know this about Yaphyll? Does that mean she could still be alive? I thought she just died.
For my own realms I want to describe the current Red Wizards (who are now scattered across the globe) and was wondering which ones it would make sense to still be alive.
Mythrell'aa - In my own imagination Mythrell'aa is still alive. An elaborate series of epic illusions would cause everyone to believe she is dead. Szass Tam being the grandmaster of all magic is not reasonable. She could have possibly made a mindless drone think she is Mythrell'aa while Mythrell'aa flees knowing she can't face Szass Tam. The drone Mythrell'aa quickly being defeated because she doesn't have all of the true Mythrell'aa's capabilities.
I think she would relocate to Samarach, where no one could find her. Over the years she would rebuild the Red Wizards (as a trade/crime consortium) in that region of the word.
Lallara - She implies she is only saving that guy... but she is the grandmaster of defence and i'm sure she could have found a way to transport herself to her holdings in Amn. (And thus rule the Red Wizards of the Sword Coast)
Yaphyll - I hadn't thought about it. How could she be alive? What? What scenario might she be alive in.
Lauzoril - He seemed pretty dead, although you don't see him drop to his death. But I don't think Szass tam should be a better enchanter than Lauzoril, again. So he could possibly survive and have enchanted himself in some way to escape after falling off the cliff.
Nevron - He's a Mane...it would take hundreds of years for him to move up in the hierarchy.
I like the idea of Yaphyll still being alive but I don't understand how that could have played out.
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| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 19:46:05
In addition to what I stated above, I'd discussed some ideas in another thread about a year back. I can see some red wizards taking up residences in the wizard's coast cities beneath Aglarond (possibly seizing said cities violently and setting up rulership). I see this group as being ones who want to recover their homeland... by any means necessary. Perhaps they setup up a new kind of "Zulkirship" based around the types of magic available, such that there are wizards, warlocks, binders, and any other kind of "dark magic" types you can think up (even necromancy, despite the fact that most of the necromancers stayed with Tam).
Another idea was that some of the red wizards join up with some of the displaced Halruaans and possibly some of the Zakharans, and they set about to colonize the Shaar. They call it the United Tharchions of the Shaar, and while they're not AS evil as Thay was... they're far from good. They continue to traffic in slaves (usually non-human) and they bring their many gnoll and centaur allies they had in Thay along with them to "tame" the lands of the Shaar. Somewhat like the Netherese, they begin gathering small earthmotes and turn them into training academies in the skies. Learning from the Netherese however, they do not make these central points of their culture... merely remote places that young wizards can train in relative isolation. This culture may even seize those found to have magical potential in the name of the government. They are considered the United Tharchions because they span a vast swathe of land, but this land is broken up by the great rift such that its not easy to get from one part of the country to another. As a result, the laws and cultures of the different sections could have some definite differences. I'd also have them have their leadership led by powerful wizards of "schools" of magic, but the number of schools is much greater than in Thay (such that they have focused elemental schools plus standard schools plus possibly shadow magic, psionics, etc.... and they may have some Shou who have brought the arts of the wu jen... and they may have something akin to "bending" from the avatar trilogy or similar studies from the tome of battles). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 19:29:57
While I can see SOME of them functioning as a global crime/trade consortium, I don't see MOST red wizards functioning that way. I can see the Zulkirs retreating to their more major enclaves and forming a council of sorts connecting them. Noting that their major known enclaves were in the following locations, that's probably a good place to start. I can't easily say what happened to these cities in 4th edition, but I'll do some guesswork, and maybe other folks can either improve upon or refute my ideas.
Athkatla (Capital of Amn) - the people of Amn turn on the enclave (being one of the few wizard dominated pieces of their country)
Baldur's Gate - the enclave starts turning towards more "mercenary" endeavours (whether by sail or in armies).
Calaunt - this enclave, Raven's Bluff's enclave, Procampur's enclave, Telflamm's enclave and Westgate's enclave form a partnership surrounding illegal trafficking of drugs and alchemical substances
Calimport - this enclave draws in Kossuth's followers and recovers much of the wizardly lore surrounding fire magic
Cimbar - this enclave is destroyed during the spellplague (i.e. Cimbar is in ruins)
Hillsfar - the new senate votes to recover the enclave lands, claiming that Thay's fall makes the previous contract null and void.
Hlath - destroyed devastatingly during the spellplague
Hlondeth - what happened to this city after the spellplague?
Marsember - the Cormyrian crown claims that the red wizards are inciting rebellion and reclaim their land
Messemprar - formerly in Unther, sunk beneath the waves in ruins
Mulmaster - the enclave and the "thought police" (forget the name of the wizard's group that was filled with wizards who delved into mind control) actually join together. The Zulkirs of divination and/or enchantment take up leadership in this enclave which becomes very powerful.
Procampur - this enclave, Raven's Bluff's enclave, Calaunt's enclave, Telflamm's enclave and Westgate's enclave form a partnership surrounding illegal trafficking of drugs and alchemical substances
Ravens Bluff -this enclave, Calaunt's enclave, Procampur's enclave, Telflamm's enclave and Westgate's enclave form a partnership surrounding illegal trafficking of drugs and alchemical substances
Saerloon - the shadovar and enclave members mutually agreed to not destroy one another if the red wizards would simply leave.
Scardale - the shadovar and enclave members mutually agreed to not destroy one another if the red wizards would simply leave.
Scornubel - open to any ideas here, nothing screams at me
Soorenar - this enclave is drowned (Soorenar is called Drowned Soorenar according to the maps). Note, Velsharoon's tower terrible was in this city
Telflamm - this enclave, Raven's Bluff's enclave, Procampur's enclave, Calaunt's enclave and Westgate's enclave form a partnership surrounding illegal trafficking of drugs and alchemical substances
Waterdeep - this enclave joins their membership with the local guild of mages in order to better understand the changes that occurred after the spellplague.
Westgate- this enclave, Raven's Bluff's enclave, Procampur's enclave, Telflamm's enclave and Calaunt's enclave form a partnership surrounding illegal trafficking of drugs and alchemical substances
Yhaunn (city on Sembia's eastern coast) - the shadovar and enclave members mutually agreed to not destroy one another if the red wizards would simply leave. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 13:14:54
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I could see Red Wizards taking regent positions over the remaining humans in Calimsham, especially worshipers of Kossuth.
I like this.
The surviving Red Wizards could go either ways--near Thay, so as to facilitate easier movement of troops when they decide the time is ripe to seize back what was once theirs; or far, so as not to attract Szass Tam's attention prematurely.
As for Kossuth's followers, if ever they manage to resurrect the Zulkirate, the High Priest of Kossuth would, I suppose, demand his own seat; thus, the forging of something like the Zulkir of Divine Magic.
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I decided to say for my own realms that Yaphyll has become a now Lawful (and not evil) Shardmind or human following the spellplague as a hybrid Wizard-Psion 20
This is interesting. Divination involves strict discipline of the mind. So diviners would likely have a fairly easy transition to becoming a psion. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 07:24:52
Yes that is a good source of information on her canonically. But I was thinking of how she would survive projected into the future...and if we follow that magic changed (4th edition) she'd need different statistics?
In 1485 (or whatever the 'current') time is i'd have her be:
3.5 edition - Yaphyll (Lawful Neutral Mulan Diviner 10 Red Wizard 10 Loremaster 4)
4th edition - Yaphyll (Lawful Shardmind Wizard-Psion 20) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 05:37:24
I believe this wiki page offers Yappy's proper 4E stats, although I can't vouch for their source or accuracy.
Giving Yappy some psionic levels (or wild talents) is an intriguing idea, I like it. It does allow her to be salvaged, at least in part, after her lousy date with Szass Tam. Assuming you'd want to bother keeping her around.
Imagine Samas Kul being a psychometabolic or psychokinetic wild talent ... mwoohahahahahaaa |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 05:30:17
In 4th edition I think he is a "30th level artillery" (I don't understand the rules of 4th edition though, i've never played past being a level 3 character - and not in the Realms)
I decided to say for my own realms that Yaphyll has become a now Lawful (and not evil) Shardmind or human following the spellplague as a hybrid Wizard-Psion 20 (Since "Diviners" essentially don't exist in the new rules. She could just have powers and spells that PCs don't have access too to make her a "Diviner") Relocating herself to Rashemen and allying with the Wychlaren or whatever the male witches are called, in an endeavor to ensure Szass Tam doesn't "Unmake" the world.
Weren't the Red Wizards already spread all over the world with their trade enclaves? I think the greatest concentrations of refugees (Who wants to live in the land of the dead :S ?) would be neighboring places like Rashemen (...not Red Wizards though obviously unless taken in by Durthans...), Aglarond, Aloar, Mulhorand, Unther, Chessenta, the Dragon Coast, etc. If Lallara survived she has homes all over the world, especially Amn.
These Trade Enclaves, and the Thayan diaspora may be growing in power and want to reclaim their lost homeland from the Szass Tam. They might be able to convince various powers to aid them in this as well. Who wants a nation of undead monstrosities next door, or even a couple nations over? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 04:48:02
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Does this imply she is undead (sizzling flesh...) or is it just that she was split and one died, and the other lived (sent some point into the future?) Are there any other hints we know of as to her fate or is it up to our imagination?
By half, maybe she meant half of her spirit/mind. She’s a formidable Diviner, so it might be reasonable to assume that she’s long ago divined her own death and chose and prepared a body in the future that she could inhabit upon her demise in the present. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 04:44:55
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'll repeat a question I've asked before in another Zulkir scroll because it wasn't answered satisfactorily.
Have any Zulkirs ever retired, simply abdicated their positions to worthy successors then managed to stay alive persuing whatever post-Zulkir vocations appealed to them?
Either way, I still maintain my hopeful theory that Mythrellan (whose apparent death was rather cheap, vague, and curtly explained) might've chosen to resign by faking her own death (with impenetrable illusions or an unusual simulacrum, of course) to avoid the usual assassins, political manipulations, and other fallout which usually accompanies a vacant Zulkir position. Perfect agreement with MrHedgehog on this matter.
That’s a possible explanation for Mythrellan’s disappearance. Perhaps Szass Tam himself knew about her fake death but simply considered her insignificant that he let her do her thing…away from Thay.
Yes, it’s also possible that those zulkirs who somehow managed to survive are currently pursuing their individual proclivities, thinking that reclaiming their positions and the wealth that comes with it is a futile endeavor. However, let’s not dismiss their individual and collective cunning. Mayhap they are rebuilding their forces and just wait for an opportunity when Szass Tam is either weakened or preoccupied with urgent matters outside Thay. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 01:51:38
I'll repeat a question I've asked before in another Zulkir scroll because it wasn't answered satisfactorily.
Have any Zulkirs ever retired, simply abdicated their positions to worthy successors then managed to stay alive persuing whatever post-Zulkir vocations appealed to them?
Either way, I still maintain my hopeful theory that Mythrellan (whose apparent death was rather cheap, vague, and curtly explained) might've chosen to resign by faking her own death (with impenetrable illusions or an unusual simulacrum, of course) to avoid the usual assassins, political manipulations, and other fallout which usually accompanies a vacant Zulkir position. Perfect agreement with MrHedgehog on this matter. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 22:13:33
It's been a while since I read the novels where Tam makes his bid for power. He has a cameo or two in Salvatore's new Neverwinter book. From what I gather, Szass Tam seems like he might be a demigod or borderline since it was hinted he draws strength from his Dread Circles. I pegged him at 35th to 40th level. Granted that's my thoughts, because I just couldn't justify a 29th level 200 year old lich being able to wipe out the entire Red Wizard power structure, though I guess he did get some help from Bane.
Depending how a person rolls, I could see Red Wizards taking regent positions over the remaining humans in Calimsham, especially worshippers of Kossuth. I could see the efreet using the Red Wizards as their human face to keep the rabble in line. Mulmaster might be a popular stop too, since they had ties to Thay before everything went wonky. There are probably many independent enclaves, but I could surely see some funding the remaining Zulkirs for their operations. They might even be focused on reclaiming the wayward ones that have gone rogue in the last 100 years.
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| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 21:22:27
I have undead in a box in my parent's basement which is quite a distance from me haha.
Does this imply she is undead (sizzling flesh...) or is it just that she was split and one died, and the other lived (sent some point into the future?) Are there any other hints we know of as to her fate or is it up to our imagination? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 11:21:32
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Yaphyll sent half of her self into the future when she divined the SP.
Nevron might have managed to make himself inconspicuous in Hell during his existence as a mane and eventually regained his real form and translated back to Faerun.
How do we know this about Yaphyll? Does that mean she could still be alive? I thought she just died.
I like the idea of Yaphyll still being alive but I don't understand how that could have played out.
I am away from my library right now. But when I get home, I’ll quote her exact words. If you have Undead with you this very moment, check that scene where she was imprisoned in Thakorsil’s Seat and cast her most powerful Divination under Szass Tam [and the Death Moon Orb] ‘s compulsion. I think it’s in the Prologue. She said it herself---that she sent half of her being into the future, the Year of Blue Fire. Probably a tiny amount of the raging blue fire she inadvertently touched upon divining the Spellplague enabled her to do such feat. Or it could simply be her last contingency.
Found it:
quote:
The flames went out of their own accord, leaving behind spots where flesh, silk, and velvet had melted and flowed like wax. Indifferent to the bizarre injuries, Yaphyll giggled and rose from Thakorsil's Seat.
Szass Tam was astonished, but didn't delay. He thrust the Death Moon Orb at her. "Sit down."
"Thank you," she said, "but I'd rather stand. You bade me split myself in two, and send one half into tomorrow. Your silly globe can't touch that half." (Undead, pp. 7-8)
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