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Originally posted by Brimstone

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Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

In the FR, I'm pretty sure that almost EVERYONE swims(I think that's the word you were looking for, Dennis) nude. AFAIK, there are no bathing suits, bikini or otherwise, in Faerun.

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Actually, Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue has a drow bathing suit in it for purchase.

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Was it studded?

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Brimstone

What?!?!

I am supposed to remove my clothing before bathing?!?!

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-You always were the smelliest Hand...

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Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

In the FR, I'm pretty sure that almost EVERYONE swims(I think that's the word you were looking for, Dennis) nude. AFAIK, there are no bathing suits, bikini or otherwise, in Faerun.

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Actually, Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue has a drow bathing suit in it for purchase.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brimstone

What?!?!

I am supposed to remove my clothing before bathing?!?!

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

In the FR, I'm pretty sure that almost EVERYONE swims(I think that's the word you were looking for, Dennis) nude. AFAIK, there are no bathing suits, bikini or otherwise, in Faerun.

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

In the FR, I'm pretty sure that almost EVERYONE swims(I think that's the word you were looking for, Dennis) nude. AFAIK, there are no bathing suits, bikini or otherwise, in Faerun.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Dennis

Most elves, I think, don't care about nudity. It's "normal." Seeing themselves as part of nature makes them think so. In RotA, the Evareskans bathed nude and climbed their houses nude.

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-Bathing while not nude is not very effective.

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Originally posted by Dennis

Most elves, I think, don't care about nudity. It's "normal." Seeing themselves as part of nature makes them think so. In RotA, the Evareskans bathed nude and climbed their houses nude.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Dennis


I "hinted" at orgies in my book, and my editor was appalled. I wanted it to stress the kind of culture of one of the cities.

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-Well, if it was a city of cloistered monks...

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Originally posted by Dennis


I "hinted" at orgies in my book, and my editor was appalled. I wanted it to stress the kind of culture of one of the cities.

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Originally posted by AleksanderTheGreat

Yeah, but Alusair is a queen, Alustriel also. And they both rather... free-willed. ;)
Are any more examples besides those two?
And BTW - Alustriel and orgies? Lol.

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Originally posted by Ed Greenwood, September 2004


Zandilar, the quick answer to your initial question is that every time I try to write anything non-standard regarding gender and characters who are "strong"/dominant or "weak"/submissive [strong females paired or interacting with weaker males, for example, such as Shandril and Narm] my editors have fits ("Doesn't fit our readership! Will hurt sales! Must fix at once!"). Such things "don't fit" the genre expectations.

In various ways, there's been a (usually friendly) tug-of-war between me and TSR/WotC/Hasbro over various details of the Realms since my first hints of the Realms were published in (what was then) "The Dragon" back in 1979. The "original" Realms, "my" Realms, was my own imaginary fantasy setting for fiction before D&D® ever existed, and then my own D&D campaign world for years before it became an "official" D&D® setting. It was purchased to be the official 'home' of the 2nd Edition D&D® game, and therefore by definition had to be, and still must be, 'all things to all people.'

In light of that prime philosophy and publishing need, it's foolish to upset some Realms fans by stating matters too baldly and being too definite when we (various Realms designers and authors) can HINT to our collective hearts' content -- and in doing so, leave DMs full leeway to run particular characters however best suits their principles and preferences.

In fact, it's ALWAYS better design work to hint ("Elminster says he's heard of many orc sightings in and about the ruins") rather than stating things too precisely ("There are six orcs and one hobgoblin in the ruins, and they'll be found waiting for PCs in the following rooms..."). Hence the very existence of unreliable narrators such as Elminster, and storytelling colour ("fluff" to some) over rules stats in most Realms writings. The Realms is people (characters) and THEIR STORIES, not stats -- and not merely their bedchamber preferences, either.

It should come as news to no one that many consumers, particularly in the United States, have religious and societal views that clash with in-thy-face lesbian, gay male, and bisexual lifestyles.

With that said, yes there are a LOT of "non-modern-real-world-American-mores-standard" relationships in the Realms. I don't make a big issue of it for several reasons.

First, offending some fans as referred to above. Secondly, TSR Code of Ethics/WotC and Hasbro Code of Conduct prohibitions (e.g. on sodomy, incest, etc.) and editorial censorship, which has (as some scribes have already noted) by and large been relaxing over the years, but has occasionally reached ridiculous heights. For example, I once had a fight with a DRAGON assistant editor over an article (which I refused to finish, under such conditions) wherein I wrote that many Arthurian tales describe Lancelot and Guinevere as "lovers," and was told that I couldn't use the word "lovers" or IN ANY WAY IMPLY extramarital sex (i.e. Arthur could be assumed to make love to his wife so long as I made no direct reference to it, but I couldn't even hint that someone else could). Sheesh. I directed the editor to the standard roster of Greek and Roman myths, legends, and fables for hardcore sexual hijinks, but she dismissed my point as irrelevant.

So what you correctly refer to as "dance around definitions," Zandilar, is how staffers at WotC have to operate, and merely good business sense (again, those who wish to read the obvious hints re. lifestyles can do so, and those offended by such matters don't get their noses rubbed in it so harshly that it ruins their enjoyment of the setting). simontrinity is correct in saying that I can go much farther in sexual matters (and, yes, innuendo, which I enjoy) these days than I could when I started writing Realms books. So the horizons ARE widening.

However, my great friend and Realms-champion Steven Schend has, as usual, already said it best in this thread: that we shouldn't be defining characters by their sexual preferences. There's far more to people than their jobs, or their hobbies, or how they like to dress, or how they engage in sexual behaviour.

I've actually written many gay (and far more bi- ) males and females into the Realms that NO ONE recognizes as such, purely because they DON'T adopt modern real-world sterotypical styles (such as so-called "butch" behaviour or effeminate "limp-wristed and lisping").

In "my" Realms, there's no general prejudice against love of same gender or love of both genders. There ARE individuals who hold such prejudices, and in general, members of nobility or royalty or any other group in which lineage and inheritance is important frown on deviance from whatever their locally accepted norm of pairing is, so that "the line can be maintained in a clear, can't-be-challenged manner."

I'm not sure if you'll see a clearly lesbian or gay male character in a novel soon, because the only way to give them that status "clearly" is to engage in protracted sex scenes, which are seldom okay with editors (a story would have to be constructed that would make such matters integral to the plotline and not "gratuitous," and although I can and have written colourful porn, it's not something WotC would welcome in the Realms line). Let's just see how far I can go in the Knights novels, shall we? :}

And yes, I regard your problem ("I personally would love to see characters in the Realms that I can personally relate to, and I keep coming up short.") as something that Realms fiction as a whole should address, for as wide a variety of Realms readers as we can collectively manage. So in design or creative terms, there is or should be a "place at the table" for, say, openly lesbian characters.

Bear in mind, however, that many Realms fans delight in pouncing on me for being a dirty-minded "pervert" (most of them, of course, not even understanding the meaning of that word) for merely showing casual nudity, kissing, caresses, and even footrubs in my fiction... things many Canadians (and, from my conversations with them, more than a few Americans) who went to summer camp in their teens accepted as normal in such settings. (And being as the Realms is "my" setting, *I* get to define what is 'normal' in the Realms; that's even in the original Realms agreement).

So let me turn this matter back to fellow scribes: how much overt sex would YOU like to read in, say, Ed Greenwood-penned Realms novels? Where's the "line of comfort" for you?

(I seriously want to read posted opinions here, without offending Alaundo or others by getting too explicit. Anyone who's attended any of the annual Spin A Yarn seminars at GenCon knows that although my own flirtations encourage Realms fans to delve into matters "blue," they're always VERY eager to do so. I encourage the racy stuff, but the audience provides it.)

On to polyamory (committed relationships): quite common in backlands Realms villages, often 'dressed up' in annual festival customs (such as Midsummer Night) to make the maximum number of people comfortable with it. In many farming and frontier areas of the Realms, "families" dwelling and working together may consist of several males and several females, not "one-man-one-woman." Again, don't expect this to be underscored in print in official products, because it points towards incest and the polygamous controversies current in some American states, and in general upsets some folks who might otherwise happily buy Realms products. Remember the editorial fits I caused just mentioning brothelsXXXX ahem, "festhalls." My view was that I was just reporting, a la National Geographic: 'The native women have long, floppy...' and the TSR editors disagreed violently. BTW, the very existence of all those brothels point to the number of men and women in the Realms who want casual sex, or who don't get what they want at home, or who don't want to wait until they get home. Sex IS alive and well in the Realms.

Please also always remember that the long-lived members of the Chosen are EXCEPTIONS to the rules: their very longevity and loss of sanity leads them to grasp at affection whenever they can, and to consider themselves so far beyond all notions of prudishness and propriety (they've outlived entire kingdoms full of social thou-shalt-nots, and been around long enough to see many priesthoods make major changes in doctrine) that they just don't care what others may think of them -- unless they need the support and aid of particular "others" at the moment.

So, yes, Alustriel does take pleasure in hosting orgies in which she physically enjoys both males and females, and lots of them enjoy each other, and lah dee dee dah dah. This does not make her a nymphomaniac, an empty-headed lust bunny, or deficient in any way. In fact, she's achieved more through seduction and founding firm friendships and making others long for another chance to dive into the comfort of one of Alustriel's large and well-filled baths than many rulers ever manage with dozens of treaties and scores of wars, skirmishes, and threats.

If you need validation, yes, Alustriel and Zelauma make love. Storm makes love with both guys and gals (the Harpers don't regard her as a 'den mother' for nothing :} ). Think of her as the comforting arms they run to, for advice and soothing companionship and understanding. However, she does as much listening and dispensing warm soup as she does riding and being ridden.

I hesitate to wander around identifying major NPCs as gay males or females, because someone else reading this may be far more comfortable in their use of the Realms if I never put such notions into their heads regarding particular characters.

So let me say just this much: most males in the Realms weep, hug, and even caress and kiss as much as real-world modern females do. How comfortable a given character is with doing such things with others of the same gender (or, for that matter, with persons of different races) varies widely -- but it's safe to say that given the opportunity, most characters have "tried everything" at least once, and between travelers outside their own communities (where such acts might well upset family members, especially if loss of virginity is involved), there's little or no stigma in such experimentation.

Please note the full implications of this: if your character in the Realms is part of an adventuring "party" and female or male characters in that party hop from bedroll to bedroll as nights on the trail pass, those bed-hoppers WILL NOT be generally viewed as "loose" or "perverted." Note that I said "generally." Couples in committed relationships whose partner goes off jumping the bones of others without prearrangement are going to feel just as hurt and betrayed as you might expect. Moreover, some characters will be uncomfortable with such behaviour, sometimes for religious reasons. Myself, I see this as best left to the roleplaying chemistry of individual gaming groups rather than shoved down anyone's throat by my or anyone else's Realms writings.

However, Zandilar, just between you and me (and of course everyone across the world with Net access who reads this :} ): I personally happen to be a guy who likes gals, but I'm quite comfortable kissing, hugging, and even caressing or comforting guys. Such activities don't happen to turn me on sexually. I'm a "toucher," and always have been: I hug and kiss a lot, perhaps more naturally than I shake hands (when greeting females formally, I was taught to kneel and kiss their hands). However, I know that such close contact gives a lot of people the creeps, and I have utterly no interest in upsetting people outside of a roleplaying session in which we're both acting: if someone goes red or jerks away from me, oops: MY bad. That's why I don't want to write too forcefully about such things.

But I hint like crazy. Steven not only expressed Khelben and Laeral's relationship perfectly, he directed you to some of his character writeups for a look-see, and I'll do the same: look back over my Realms writings (such as the NPC sections of the Volo's Guides) and the hints are there. Bushels of them, in fact. :}

Although overly aggressive butch lesbian behaviour and over-the-top prancing 'mincing' gay male behaviour both strike me as ridiculous, the relationships underlying them (including the physical sides of such relationships) do not. When the lesbians who happen to own the cottage four down from mine go out on their dock at dusk to make love, I don't yell angrily at them, ridicule them, or rudely watch them, but if I happen to be out on my point (which is high enough to overlook their dock), I'll smile and wave at first sight and then carry on as if they're not doing anything. This has led to them in turn casually accepting my distant presence: they usually make love, then plunge in for a dip that includes lots of splashing and laughter, and then they climb back out on the dock to dry off (if the night's too cold or mosquito-ridden for that, it's on with the towels and back inside). Either way, they usually wave and call "good night" as they go.

That's the same style and balance I'd like to strike in my Realms writings: casual acceptance of such matters for those interested in them, and a tacit agreement to overlook them for those who aren't.

With the ground prepared, so to speak, I can now tackle your query about strong female characters choosing older, fatter, hairier males. (And for readers waiting to denounce this as my personal sexual wish-fulfillment, I proffer three words: oh, grow up. I did, after all, establish these characters and relationships when I was a skinny, young, bespectacled nerd of a youngster who never thought he'd ever either get fat or grow a beard. Old, yes, I knew that would happen if I didn't get myself killed. But I digress. :} )

My point in depicting several "gals like old fat hairy males" relationships was deliberately to point out that these particular females chose what they wanted, and it wasn't "brainless handsome hunks" but rather men with wits and characters they could respect.

For example, in the case of Mirt and Asper, I wanted to show a Realms instance of something that happened many times in real-world past history: a young ward growing up to genuinely love her much older guardian (yes, I'm well aware that there were even more real-world instances of guardians forcing themselves on their wards, or marrying them over their objections). I've written a story that you'll probably never see (because it does include several explicit love scenes) wherein Mirt uncomfortably rebuffs his increasingly amorous 'little girl,' and succeeds only in driving the past-puberty-and-in-the-thrall-of-raging-hormones Asper to seduce him: she's taken her measure of a lot of men in Waterdeep, and decided the man who raised her is the best, and she'll have HIM, thank-you-very-much.

I, too, don't like gals to collapse into mush whenever Macho Hero Number 36 strides manfully onto the scene. However, I have written several scenes in which women who know quite well that their physical strength and personal social standing can't win them a clear victory over Mister Macho, and who have enough personal self-confidence not to have to be seen to "win" every moment, do the collapse act to manipulate Macho into doing what they wanted, WITHOUT a large and damaging conflict. MY pet-hate, never-want-to-write characters are STUPID females (except as passing villains who get what they deserve).

What sort of things would you like to know about Caladnei of Cormyr? I didn't create her, but have used her in my Realms of Shadow story and in Elminster's Daughter (the mind-meld sequences therein shared important highlights of her personal 'back story' with readers), and plan to reveal more of her in tales to come. To some extent, the Royal Magician of Cormyr must have some 'air of mystery' to be effective, and Caladnei is very much 'learning on the job' and growing and changing in doing so. (And if it's hints of lesbianism you're looking for, take a good look at Caladnei and Alusair in that Realms of Shadow story.)

I'm not sure how soon Laeral of Loudwater will reappear in print. It depends on a lot of not-yet-settled projects, but is unlikely to be less than three years or so. You may in a year or so see a rather powerful story concerning Alusair and her sexuality. Or may not; again, we'll have to see.

Regarding slash: although I'm well aware that in this age of instant Net publishing examples of slash writing can be distressing to some authors, I personally have no trouble with it, so long as it's always made clear it's not the work of the original author. Satire defenses aside, I also fully understand when someone is upset by a depiction of his or her character and tries to vigorously defend the original by legally punishing the writer of the slash, or getting the slash removed from circulation, and so on.

However, I regard all fannish writing as something humans DO. Have always done. In the same way that children play with dolls, readers play with characters they develop an affection (or love-hate) for. I have read some wonderfully affectionate fan writings about the Realms, and some vicious and hilarious slash about Realms characters. (The one in which Elminster was magically cursed to continuously grow breasts and vaginas that roamed around the surface of his body, whilst he exuded an aroma that made all humans and elves [especially drow, OF COURSE] around him mad with lust for him, had me rolling on the floor whooping with laughter. I just wish the writer had been competent enough to go on to tell a good story after the few vivid scenes of debauchery. But I digress again. :} )

I hope I've answered your questions without overly offending anyone, Zandilar and other scribes. As you can probably tell, I'm not shy about discussing such topics, and I'm sure Alaundo and Tethtoril will step in if they think matters are getting (ahem) out of hand, so if you've follow-up questions, feel free. However, folks, please let's NOT get into an endless round of "So is Manshoon gay? Is Fzoul? Okay, how about Larloch?"

I would hope there are more things to talk about in the Realms than that.

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