| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lashaeral |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 20:51:54
A scenariao I've always been fond of is the victorious blade of the people finding a way, to eradidicate or nearly eradicate humans from Faerun... just that its hard to argue AGAINST some of their logic... and it would be nice to see
"the inevitbale trend of time" defeated for once.
Sure anyone willing to commit genocide is evil, I dont disagree, but "where to from here" is interesting to ask.
most notably, wood elves in particular, wood likely see nothign wrong with "Stealing back " land that had once been theirs, and simply cutting down 2 or 3 survivors of a plague that killed millions.
Drow and illithids might see a golden opportunity to try conquering the surface...
any other possible ramifications im missing? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 23:37:08
Who says they have to use High Magic? Sorry, playing devil's advocate here. They could just as easily use some form of ritual like Szass Tam's Dread Rings. In fact, that sounds like a really good idea for this. Might have to play around with this idea. A race-specific plague that leaves survivors sterile? Sounds like fodder for a great campaign! Incidentally, this also sounds like something from the plot of the comic series "Y: the Last Man." A mystical plague wiped out all but one man, as well as every male of every other species on the planet- except for his pet monkey. Guess what he spent most of the series doing?! No- not that. Actually, he was running from all the women who WANTED him to, lol!!! |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 22:33:34
quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
I would imagine that the EV would try to coincide their eradication of humans with an event that would herald the resurgence of the Elves as a whole.
Perhaps a High Magic ritual that turns all humans into plant-life/trees or unleashing a monster like the 'elf-eater' to hunt them down....perhaps even another dracorage mythal that is aimed at humans thereby Destabilizing the human empires enough that the elven people can slowly repopulate faerun without fear of the humans stopping them.
Although I wouldn't put it past the victorious blades to be short-sighted enough to wipe all humans out in an instant without thought of the fallout...only to change their hatred to whatever race rises to replace humans.
-The biggest problem with that would be Elven High Magi using Elven High Magic to aid and abet the Eldreth Veluuthra. Elven High Magic is only promulgated in one place- Evermeet. Queen Amlauril has gone on the record as condemning the Eldreth Veluuthra. Sure, some of the more conservative Houses of Evermeet may dislike Humans, and other N'Tel'Quessir as much as generic Eldreth Veluuthra members, but I do not see them disobeying their queen, and providing assistance to the organization. Elven High Magic also requires the "approval" of Corellon Larethian (mechanically, in 3e, Elven High Magic [Epic Magic with the Elven High Magic subtype] does not have this quantifier, but in the lore, supposedly, it does). Since he, nor the rest of the Seldarine approve of their genocidal goals, theoretical Elven High Magic practitioners operating with the group would not be able to utilize their High Magic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 05:40:03
quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
I would imagine that the EV would try to coincide their eradication of humans with an event that would herald the resurgence of the Elves as a whole.
Perhaps a High Magic ritual that turns all humans into plant-life/trees or unleashing a monster like the 'elf-eater' to hunt them down....perhaps even another dracorage mythal that is aimed at humans thereby Destabilizing the human empires enough that the elven people can slowly repopulate faerun without fear of the humans stopping them.
Although I wouldn't put it past the victorious blades to be short-sighted enough to wipe all humans out in an instant without thought of the fallout...only to change their hatred to whatever race rises to replace humans.
It actually makes me think of what the Aragami were trying to pull in the anime Blue Seed... Using the power of a living god, these plant-based critters tried to turn all humans into plant-based critters. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 03:06:34
Lemur, that's a really good suggestion, actually. Doubly so if we posit that the disease only makes a sizable percentage of humans infertile, but is transmitted to the next generation. So that any human born has anywhere between a 20% and 50% chance of being able to breed (take your pick, probably dependent on how difficult the disease is to create). Then you'd get humans in a similar situation to the modern-day dwarves: a steadily declining race, but one that's still holding on in some areas.
This stops the forward tide of human expansion, but at the same time keeps the humans around as a bulwark for a few more centuries, giving the elves time to rebuild their numbers and their defenses. I like it.
The problem, of course, is that the humans have gods, and the gods aren't exactly likely to sit around and do nothing while they all wither and die from their followers going the way of the dodo. That's an awful lot of divine inspiration, not to mention the magical experimentation of hundreds or thousands of wizards, to reverse whatever was done. And it also means that everyone's going to be around to take vengeance, if anyone (god or mortal) figures out where the disease came from.
But despite those problems, it's still an elegant solution. Plus, it has potentials for an adventuring campaign, if you have it treated like any other disease: start it at Patient (or more likely Location) Zero, and watch it spread. Now you've got quarantines, hoarding, people panicking, etc. If it has some sort of additional symptom to alert someone they have the disease. If not, you can have a delayed realization (and delayed panic). |
| Eli the Tanner |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 01:16:45
I would imagine that the EV would try to coincide their eradication of humans with an event that would herald the resurgence of the Elves as a whole.
Perhaps a High Magic ritual that turns all humans into plant-life/trees or unleashing a monster like the 'elf-eater' to hunt them down....perhaps even another dracorage mythal that is aimed at humans thereby Destabilizing the human empires enough that the elven people can slowly repopulate faerun without fear of the humans stopping them.
Although I wouldn't put it past the victorious blades to be short-sighted enough to wipe all humans out in an instant without thought of the fallout...only to change their hatred to whatever race rises to replace humans. |
| Mystic Lemur |
Posted - 08 May 2011 : 01:54:41
Instead of killing off all the humans at once, why not create a disease that sterilizes women? Or men? Then they aren't all dying at once, and within one human lifetime the threat is all but gone.
There was a scifi book I read once that had a plague that killed only women. I think it was called White Plague.
As for after, I agree that the elves would pretty much be boned. Be careful what you wish for... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 08:33:44
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
And more wiser and civil elves understand that.
-Yes and no. Plenty "wise" and "civil" Elves dislike Humans immensely, and would rather they just disappear, but don't particularly dig the whole genocide schpiel that the Eldreth Veluuthra puts forward. If they toned things down a bit, they'd get a hell of a lot more mainstream support. Compare contemporary to various terror organizations that exist in our world (given that the Eldreth Veluuthra is a terror organization). Many ideological tenets are shared between any given mainstream population, and terror organizations, but it is the wanton violence, extreme measures, and whatnot that turn of the mainstream population from such organizations.
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
And if THAT was the issue, what about half-elves? This is one of many flaws in their philosophy. And what makes them not try to make genocide of some elves with part of human blood ancestry?
-The Eldreth Veluuthra sees Half-Elves as tainted by Human blood, and thus, abominations that are just as bad as Humans- perhaps even moreso, since they are the physical incarnations of Human and Elven intermingling, and represent Elvendom at it's most tainted form. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 07:03:40
Hoondatha, I believe in the end these actions corrupt the elves, no matter how noble their goals are. And more wiser and civil elves understand that. And if THAT was the issue, what about half-elves? This is one of many flaws in their philosophy. And what makes them not try to make genocide of some elves with part of human blood ancestry? Nope, EV is a candidate for something worse than Descent. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 18:16:22
Another potential issue with the EV killing all the humans at once: that creates much potential for undead to arise. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 13:19:32
Actually, their philosophy is sound. We're all humans, after all, so we shouldn't have any problem admitting that humans as a race, 1) breed like rabbits, 2) have problems accepting anything a particular group describes as "other," 3) are prone to warlike behavior and very, very good at it, and 4) have a history of affecting, if not out-right destroying, the environment.
All of those would be deeply concerning to a non-human neighbor, be it elves or any other race. It's a common enough concept in science fiction and fantasy, showing up in such diverse properties as Star Trek and Babylon 5, to the Predator movies, to Fred Saberhagen's Berserker novels and Tolkien's Silmarillion.
I think the Eldreth is entirely accurate in their diagnosis of who the human race is, and what it can do. And given all that, it's not surprising that they've come to the conclusion that they've got to take humans out before things get any worse. I think they'd be better served forming alliances with the humans and working to twist them toward the "good" end of the spectrum against the worse kind of human, but I absolutely understand why they're doing what they're doing. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 09:55:30
Actually that is barbaric. Only the most bloody bastards would do this.
For such things Dark elves were all turned to Drow and the whole clan was eliminated. There is no wonder NO ONE of Seldarine helps Eldreth Veluuthra. They are the same in methods with banished Dark elves, actually even worse, because Dark elves had no false ideology to hide behind. This behavior is insult to the traditions and history of Crown Wars. I see nothing worth of approval in their philosophy. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 20:57:03
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, a plague that killed millions would spawn other flavors of plague. Even if the elves were immune to this theoretical "humanbane" plague, having millions of dead bodies piled up everywhere and decomposing would spread all sorts of nasty diseases that elves wouldn't be immune to.
-I doubt that Elves who would be spreading a "Humanbane Plague" would be living anywhere near where all of the dead bodies would be piling up. The places where an Eldreth Veluuthra "chapter" might spring up, there aren't going to be Humans living in the area.
True, but decomposing bodies would still contaminate water supplies and such. |
| Thente Thunderspells |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 19:10:42
Well, you'd still have whole orders of Human Paladins left to deal with!
Plus, given that the Seldarine aren't going to condone the plague killing of millions of people, and the human gods (other than Talona/Beshaba/Shar) are going to have a big issue with letting their followers simply die in a plague, I think you might have some divine intervention for Eldreth Veluuthra to deal with as well. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 18:45:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, a plague that killed millions would spawn other flavors of plague. Even if the elves were immune to this theoretical "humanbane" plague, having millions of dead bodies piled up everywhere and decomposing would spread all sorts of nasty diseases that elves wouldn't be immune to.
-I doubt that Elves who would be spreading a "Humanbane Plague" would be living anywhere near where all of the dead bodies would be piling up. The places where an Eldreth Veluuthra "chapter" might spring up, there aren't going to be Humans living in the area. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 17:08:35
Also, a plague that killed millions would spawn other flavors of plague. Even if the elves were immune to this theoretical "humanbane" plague, having millions of dead bodies piled up everywhere and decomposing would spread all sorts of nasty diseases that elves wouldn't be immune to. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 15:23:09
Going back to the OP, I think that the sudden disappearance (assuming that most humans die off in less than a month or so) would be a disaster for the elves. They do not at this late date have the population strength to hold back the monsters. Orcs alone would spill down out of the Spine of the World and other ranges and rampage all over. Maybe six hundred years ago, when you had Cormanthor and Eaerlann and a couple other elven empires were around they could have done ok, but not today.
What I think would happen is that the elves would swiftly be backed into exactly the same defensible corners that they're in right now. If the disappearance of the humans for some reason triggered a drastic increase in elven birthrates, then perhaps in several hundred years they would have the numbers to actively contest for some parts of Faerun, but for the immediate future, they're going to be fighting desperately just to survive, and a number of the more isolated tribes are either going to have to either relocate or perish.
It's got some fabulous potential for a non-traditional "after the end" kind of campaign. Also, you have to ask how widely does this magical "plague" actually spread. Does it take out all humans on the entire planet? If not, where does it stop, and how do survivors outside the radius react?
For instance, if we nuke all of conventional Faerun, from Halruaa in the south all the way up to the Spine of the World/Ten Towns/Damarra, and then east far enough to include Thay, that still leaves everyone on an island in the Sea of Swords, as well as the barbarians in the Endless Wastes. We already know that the terrain as far west as Impiltur is conducive to horse nomads, so the Tuigen and other tribes could spread west in search of new grass. Island-dwellers could come back and re-settle some of the coastal cities, assuming that whatever killed off the people 1) doesn't linger, and 2) left buildings intact.
On the other hand, they could be absolutely terrified of catching whatever did in everyone else, and so move in the opposite direction. Which could lead to the Tuigan invading Shou Lung again, and the islanders heading for Anchorome and points west. Mass migration to Maztica, anyone?
Sounds fascinating. And that's not even touching the other demihuman races, or the Underdark races. |
| Lashaeral |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 04:45:18
First when I said "would the Seldarine be too moralistic to seize the opportunity" I mean AFTER the Plague had happened would they feel that encouraging the retaking of ancient elven lands, was legitimizing the massacare, or what?
Also think that the "Heretic of the Faith" feat has potential where their concerned? |
| Marc |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 21:33:29
it doesn't say who's behind the corrupting artifact, it's similar to the works of Moander during the Dawn Cataclysm
what if they worshipped Kanchelsis, he's a bit elvish |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 08:15:13
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
maybe it's some archfey that provides the spells
-Auril was turned from a "proper" goddess to an Archfey, wasn't she? There you go (in that Lossarwyn the Ice Lich is getting his Druid spells from her).
The lore describing Auril's fey origin is a new revelation [as of 4e].
Additional, from Brian James:-
"Long before humans started venerating the Frostmaiden, she was known as Aurilandür, the Frost Sprite Queen, a (mostly) benevolent winter fey with a seat on the Court of Stars. She was latter corrupted by a malign artifact, warred with her sister the Summer Queen, and was banished from the Feywild. Thereafter her name was stricken and she was referred to only as the Queen of Air and Darkness. At this time she garnered a human following and joined Talos-who-was-Gruumsh as one of the Gods of Fury. With the aid of Silvanus, the dark artifact’s hold over Auril was shattered during the Stormstar Requiem, and the Aurilandür of old has once again begun to peak through Auril’s icy, malevolent veneer."
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 06:34:13
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
maybe it's some archfey that provides the spells
-Auril was turned from a "proper" goddess to an Archfey, wasn't she? There you go (in that Lossarwyn the Ice Lich is getting his Druid spells from her). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 00:59:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
At the time that book was published, divine casters in FR had to have a patron deity -- so worshipping nature shouldn't have worked. It's been suggested by more than one person that Lolth, posing as Moander, was giving the EV their divine magic. That's an idea I find much potential in. 
Interestingly, we should also consider the following from Ed, from back in July '05:-
"In 2nd Edition, 1st and 2nd level spells could be gained or renewed without direct connection to any deity (and so were obtainable during a Godswar, as I suggested in DRAGON #54, and we later all saw in the Time of Troubles). As a general rule, divine spells should be granted by deities (or their servant creatures) only as a result of direct prayer: in other words, yes, divine casters must worship a specific deity and not a cause or broad aspect.
However (weasel time), there will be exceptions, because in the endless game of one-up-god-ship that Faerûnian deities play, subtly struggling for supremacy over each other, dominance over intelligent races and events that affect their societies, and defense of personal portfolios, gods (and their loyal servant creatures) will often grant spells to mortals “out of the blue,” or under false pretenses, or whatever - - just to try to influence those events and achieve some unknown-to-mortals aim or temporary victory in the ongoing godly struggle. As I’ve said before, there are secrets about the gods I can’t yet reveal, but all of this boils down to: MOST divine casters get their spells by praying directly to a deity and serving that deity adequately (serve poorly, and your prayers may not be answered at all; serve superbly, and you may even receive extra magic), but A FEW divine casters may, for indefinite periods, receive spells when venerating only a cause, broad aspect, or even a dead or “the wrong” god." |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 00:57:17
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
maybe it's some archfey that provides the spells
I've speculated on something similar in the past. Specifically, if the Seldarine do not grant the Eldreth Veluuthra divine spells, then perhaps the seelie/unseelie courts will. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 23:17:12
At the time that book was published, divine casters in FR had to have a patron deity -- so worshipping nature shouldn't have worked. It's been suggested by more than one person that Lolth, posing as Moander, was giving the EV their divine magic. That's an idea I find much potential in. |
| Quale |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 22:50:03
maybe it's some archfey that provides the spells |
| mensch |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 20:22:07
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion-Yes, the the very next sentence in Champions of Ruin that says that members of the Eldreth Veluuthra worship the Seldarine is, "The gods of the Elves do not, however, reciprocate those feelings. Therefore, no Clerics of the good-aligned Elven pantheon are members of the Eldreth Veluuthra..."
Ah yes, you're right. This is the full snippet regarding the worship of the pantheon among the ranks of the Eldreth Veluuthra:
quote:
"Because the Eldreth Veluuthra considers itself to be a group dedicated to the cause of good, its members continue to worship the traditional elven pantheon. The gods of the elves do not, however, reciprocate these feelings. Therefore, no clerics of the good-aligned elven pantheon are members of the Eldreth Veluuthra, and no member of the Eldreth Veluuthra would dare worship a nonelf or evil deity. The members are certain that one of their gods (most likely Corellon Larethian) will eventually recognize the merit of their position. For many years, they were forced to rely upon whatever healing potions they could purchase, find or steal. But of late, they have learned (through the instruction of the druid ice lich, Lossarwyn) to tap directly into the divine power of nature itself, granting power to druids and rangers."
CoR, Page 78
I like the idea of tapping into the raw power of nature somehow, but I'm not sure how clerics would accomplish this. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 17:06:42
quote:
Originally posted by mensch
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion-The Seldarine do not activley support the Eldreth Veluuthra. This is why they value magical items and Druids so much- they have no Clerics to grant them healing spells, and being fundamentalists and extremists , would never deign to worshiping deities other than the Seldarine themselves.
One of the 3.5 sourcebooks detailing the Eldreth Veluuthra, "Lords of Darkness" I think (or it could be "Champions of Ruin") states that most clerics worship Corellon Larethian, because he's believed to be the founding father of the elves.
This doesn't mesh well with Corellon's alignments for clerics which are either in the neutral or good spectrum, whereas the Eldreth Veluuthra are generally Lawful Evil. But the PHB states: "that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful–chaotic axis or the good–evil axis, but not both". So isn't it theoretically possible Corellon still grants spells to clerics of the Eldreth Veluuthra?
The members of the Eldreth Veluuthra are generally seen as misguided in their beliefs of what constitutes a "just cause", so your suggestion that their clerics get their powers from other evil aligned deities could also be a possibility, plotwise.
No. I don't recall the source, but one of them does state that the Seldarine does not give spells to the Eldreth Veluuthra. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 16:57:50
quote:
Originally posted by mensch
One of the 3.5 sourcebooks detailing the Eldreth Veluuthra, "Lords of Darkness" I think (or it could be "Champions of Ruin") states that most clerics worship Corellon Larethian, because he's believed to be the founding father of the elves.
This doesn't mesh well with Corellon's alignments for clerics which are either in the neutral or good spectrum, whereas the Eldreth Veluuthra are generally Lawful Evil. But the PHB states: "that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful–chaotic axis or the good–evil axis, but not both". So isn't it theoretically possible Corellon still grants spells to clerics of the Eldreth Veluuthra?
The members of the Eldreth Veluuthra are generally seen as misguided in their beliefs of what constitutes a "just cause", so your suggestion that their clerics get their powers from other evil aligned deities could also be a possibility, plotwise.
-Yes, the the very next sentence in Champions of Ruin that says that members of the Eldreth Veluuthra worship the Seldarine is, "The gods of the Elves do not, however, reciprocate those feelings. Therefore, no Clerics of the good-aligned Elven pantheon are members of the Eldreth Veluuthra..." |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 16:54:46
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
I think there was snippet nature gods do not approve of their actions either. So leader of theirs, ice lich, mastered a way to channel the energy to the druids of Eldreth Veluuthra. Or something like that.
-Or, the deities that were mentioned, such as Moander, or Auril, don't like Elves to begin with, and would have no qualms with their followers (and by proxy, their spells) going towards terrorism and such that, ultimately, could split the Elven race.
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
And Lolth? Seriously? You are talking about supremacists, not betrayers of their kind. They have twisted logic about good for their race or something. True, some of them have ideas of allying with drow, but they are rejected by majority for obvious reasons.
-Who said anything about allying with Drow? As was said, in the Forgotten Realms, a deity needs to be the genesis of any Divine spell. 'Nature' does not cut it, like it does in the generic rules, and other D&D settings. An individual in the setting need not know this, however. A Druid who worships nature can worship nature and receive spells, thinking that their love of nature and it's natural bounty are what are giving them their spells, when in fact that's not the case, and they're none the wiser. As for Lolth, the notion of providing for the Eldreth Veluuthra presses all of her buttons- chaos, intrigue, chaos, destruction, chaos... |
| mensch |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 13:26:09
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion-The Seldarine do not activley support the Eldreth Veluuthra. This is why they value magical items and Druids so much- they have no Clerics to grant them healing spells, and being fundamentalists and extremists , would never deign to worshiping deities other than the Seldarine themselves.
One of the 3.5 sourcebooks detailing the Eldreth Veluuthra, "Lords of Darkness" I think (or it could be "Champions of Ruin") states that most clerics worship Corellon Larethian, because he's believed to be the founding father of the elves.
This doesn't mesh well with Corellon's alignments for clerics which are either in the neutral or good spectrum, whereas the Eldreth Veluuthra are generally Lawful Evil. But the PHB states: "that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful–chaotic axis or the good–evil axis, but not both". So isn't it theoretically possible Corellon still grants spells to clerics of the Eldreth Veluuthra?
The members of the Eldreth Veluuthra are generally seen as misguided in their beliefs of what constitutes a "just cause", so your suggestion that their clerics get their powers from other evil aligned deities could also be a possibility, plotwise. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 13:08:40
You're asking for pretty grim thoughts, eh?
Wiping out the human population would need considerable effort on the elven races. An Elven High Magic ritual is likely to be the main and initial weapon of mass destruction, but curtailing a comeback of the rapidly growing human populations needs a considerably more hands on approuch over a long period of time. I think a seasonal "human hunt" is the most effective method that would be used. Spreading disease is a risky prospect for the weak bodied elven race, in case a strain emerges that is contaguous for the elven race aswell.
The spreading of forestland through terraforming and weather control spells may prove advantaguous for elves, especially when reclaiming areas previously heavily settled by humans. The ruins left by humans are not likely to be of use for elves for a long period of time, unless the elves manage to adapt the dwellings of human households to their liking. So ruins of human settlement are going to be needing heavy modification, which may take a few elven generations while being pestered by marauding races better suited for city life such as goblinoids. Cities are best removed by heavy use of elven high magic, putting an even greater strain on elven magical resources elsewhere.
Elves would need a great number of soldiers to accomplish a stable region under their own control on Fearuns mainland. That would mean they need a higher population somehow or they would need allies in their endeavor. For the first they'd need an extraplanar source of elves of somekind. For the latter I can't really see any allied race that the Eldreth Veluuthra would approve or realistically control after the jobs done.
All in all, I really don't think the Eldreth Veluuthra's ideas are sustainable on Fearun. |
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