| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kno |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 18:39:07
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast. Any ideas how the events from the book of Apocalypse could be worked into a campaign. I guess he is one of the ''heads''. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kno |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 15:13:05
Thank Hawkins, I will change the sequence of events. The scale will be smaller, covering the Old Empires. Horus-Re looks the obvious choice. Ship of the Gods volcano will play a part in the pollution of waters and darkness. |
| Quale |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 10:55:46
Don't have anything better, like I said Jhaamdath, Valigan Thirdborn as the Antichrist, Tyr's procession of justice, Helm as the Seer or Deneir the scribe, Malar and Nobanion, Garagos as War, make the city below Hlondeth serpentine, elves demons from the abyss. It's a stretch. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 15:19:23
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
That's kinda like the Wheel of Time, boring.
Since the OP was trying to form some sort of "Apocalypse Scenario" based on the events of the Book of Revelation, I was just trying to provide a background of the events recorded thereof for Kno to be able to use for this, and a way to maybe use it. I personally would never use it (or probably any other scenario from the Bible) for a Realms campaign, but it seemed to me that that is what Kno was asking for. If you have a spin on it that you think is better, please share it. |
| Quale |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 10:28:13
That's kinda like the Wheel of Time, boring. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 18:26:19
HERE is the sequence of events (basically in a timeline or outline form) of the book of Revelation. The "antichrist" could be the chosen of an evil deity, the spawn of an evil deity, or even the avatar of an evil deity who is born/released. Then you can replace "God" with the good-aligned Realms deity or pantheon of your choice. I would have the "First Seal" already broken, and the antagonist (either the "antichrist" or a minion thereof) trying to break the other six seals and therefore cause calamity. And then the PCs would be trying to stop him/her/them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 17:56:52
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
However I don't see how could the thousand-year kingdom from the Revelation work in a campaign.
Perhaps, guided by a prophecy similar to the book of Revelations, some major baddie is trying to forge his empire that will last for 1000 years or longer...
I vaguely remember the book, first there is a series of disasters, then a thousand year kingdom while the devil is locked away, then the second apocalypse. It would be difficult to have that long campaign.
I'd make this less religious and in the past, a historical allegory for the Roman-Jewish conflict, where possibly Jhaamdath takes the place of Romans, or involve the Dawn Cataclysm.
We don't need the religious aspects, or for it to have happened -- just a prophecy and a bad guy trying to make it happen. That gives the PCs something to fight against. |
| Quale |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 15:55:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
However I don't see how could the thousand-year kingdom from the Revelation work in a campaign.
Perhaps, guided by a prophecy similar to the book of Revelations, some major baddie is trying to forge his empire that will last for 1000 years or longer...
I vaguely remember the book, first there is a series of disasters, then a thousand year kingdom while the devil is locked away, then the second apocalypse. It would be difficult to have that long campaign.
I'd make this less religious and in the past, a historical allegory for the Roman-Jewish conflict, where possibly Jhaamdath takes the place of Romans, or involve the Dawn Cataclysm. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 19:51:32
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Szass Tam, working with/for Bane?
I'd go for someone else. Using Szass Tam is a bit cliched, to me. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 19:42:42
Szass Tam, working with/for Bane? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 18:03:24
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
However I don't see how could the thousand-year kingdom from the Revelation work in a campaign.
Perhaps, guided by a prophecy similar to the book of Revelations, some major baddie is trying to forge his empire that will last for 1000 years or longer... |
| Quale |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 13:27:35
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Bahamut really needs to be chaotic good for everything to work out. LG isn't really the opposite of LE (Tiamet).
Which two lawful powers were you referring to, Quale?
The ones from Guide to Hell, Ahriman and Jazirian. Possibility is that Merrshaulk is a projection of sleeping being, similar to Ahriman and Asmodeus.
Bahamut and Tiamat were poorly designed, I don't know where they got their sources.
Also Baphomet is one of the most obvious choices for the Beast.
However I don't see how could the thousand-year kingdom from the Revelation work in a campaign. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 00:21:02
-Jazirian certainly is a LG serpent of law. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 18:16:48
Bahamut really needs to be chaotic good for everything to work out. LG isn't really the opposite of LE (Tiamet).
Which two lawful powers were you referring to, Quale? |
| Quale |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 17:33:52
There was speculation that just as there are two serpents of law, Merrshaulk and an unnamed CG one are their opposites. |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 15:23:07
Speaking of 'Elder Evils', I'd suggested checking out the sourcebook of that very title, Kno, for at least giving signs for such an apocalyptic event coming. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 05:21:02
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Does Asmodeus have a demonic counterpart? (my lack of Planescape/fiend knowledge is showing here). Could it be 'The Abyss' itself?
-Lord of the Abyss, who is stronger than all other Demons enough that he/she can subjugate them (to the degree that Asmodeus actually 'subjugates' the eight other Lords of Hell)? Nope. That'd be way too lawful for such a chaotic place. There definitley are Demon Lords who are stronger than other Demon Lords, but when you literally have an infinite number of powerful Demon Lords (and occasional deities) ruling over their own layers, the field becomes too crowded to pick with any certainty one over everyone else. I guess you could say that, of all the ones we know about, Demogorgon is the most powerful, but he has strong competition with Orcus, Graz'zt, and Ob-ox-Ob. Miska the Wolf-Spider was another super powerful one but she's dead. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 20:50:12
If you say that 'the beast' is one aspect of Asmodeus (after all, his name is Legion  ) - 'the serpent' is another (that is discussed in the final, real issue of Dragon) - then you may be able to translate several evil deities into aspects of 'the beast', Malar just being one of them (Kazgoroth could be one, Kezef another).
In fact, if you want to throw-in the 'Elf-eater', you could theorize that Asmodeus created one aspect for each major mortal race (I won't even theorize about those - you guys figure it out). Unfortunately, I do not easily make a connection between 'the beast' and Asmodeus. in fact, I would say that 'the serpent' is the preferred vehicle for Asmodeus/Lawful Evil. Does Asmodeus have a demonic counterpart? (my lack of Planescape/fiend knowledge is showing here). Could it be 'The Abyss' itself?
Perhaps Asmodeus is 'the serpent', and something else is 'the beast', and although both have dozens of aspects themselves, they are both merely aspects of something even greater (PURE evil?) Maybe that is Ahriman.... who knows?
Anyhow, although I have included many aspects of the Judaeo-Christian mythos in my over-Cosmology, I think that the details of the Bible are also world-specific. Each Sphere/Solar System has its own set of rules, and pre-determined prophesies/fate, and the way things are supposed to work in the end-of-days for Earth isn't necessarily the same as what it would be in The Realms. Even ancient, 'Elder Evils' and 'Watching Gods' can't be everywhere at once (that would be self-defeating), so they pick-&-choose their battlegrounds and objectives on a world-by-world basis.
As an aside, I have begun to postulate beyond my proto-cosmology and into the elusive region of 'Armegeddon'. I think every world has one of these coming to it. What I think is going on (in D&D, not RW) is that all the worlds were once one - they are all just echoes of that 'True World' that once existed. With the 'death' of each sphere (the 'Apocalypse') the energies contained therein are released and re-absorbed by the remaining worlds.
And in the end, there can be only one.  |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 20:39:09
I don't see this concept as a lost cause, though the link to may be. From a campaign standpoint, I would do this (with a couple of canon twists).
Create triad of Lathander (Jesus), Tyr (God), and Mystra (Holy Spirit).
Have the rise of Amauntor worship taking place, with whoever the guy was in Power of Faerun who the worship envogue. He's actually your anti-christ. Daegeloth (sp?). Amauntor is, in fact, just a mask of Cyric used to divert worship away Lathander. Cyric got the idea from ... the ultimate beast ... Moander. It's a good match, because Moander is great at taking the long view, isn't a fan of Lathander, and Cyric is the god of "getting screwed in the end" and "coming up with worse plans than Bane."
Daegeloth should then also have the support of four men - chose of their gods (who are actually chosen of Cyric).
The Minister of Unity - Heads up an order of priests who are dedicated to routing out corruption within the fold. Essentially the head of an inquisitorial wing of Amaunator's church. He also commissions investigations into the dogmas and litanys of other faiths seeking to bring all worshippers of the "good" gods into one group.
The Minister of Peace - A Paladin of Tyr who protects the faithful with an order of templar knights who have all sworn vows of poverty.
The Minister of Renewal - A druid who heads up the arm of the church dedicated solely to the service of the poor. Not even an evangelical group at all, they grow crops and raise animals for sacrifice and distribution to the masses, be they worshippers or not.
The Minister of Life - A Cleric who tends to the sick, injured, and dying. Like the Minister of Renewal, his wing does not discriminate between believer and unbeliever. They provide healing and solace to anyone that comes their way.
And now you have the Four Horsemen. :)
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 17:10:30
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
You have convinced me
I give up
I'm just saying that I don't see a connection there. Your idea could still work; just tweak it to make the Christian elements workable in the Realms.
Unfortunately, I'm nothing approaching knowledgable about the Bible, so I can't offer any assistance on the conversion.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 15:37:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
#54, does not actually say that Malar is among them, but the title of Beastlord implies. quote:
''The collective title “Cults of the Beast” arises out of the ancient belief that all such doctrines are merely splinters of an old, decadent and forbidden religion which rejoiced in a return to the bestial (evil) side of man’s nature, worshipping “The Beast.” The belief is more instinc-tive than remembered now, but the name has stuck.
"The Beast" is a pretty generic phrase. I don't see the implication that Malar has anything to do with Christianity.
That's my thinking as well. Ed's work-up would seem to play upon the bestial aspect in mortals... than any truly divine component. |
| Kno |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 11:50:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
#54, does not actually say that Malar is among them, but the title of Beastlord implies. quote:
''The collective title “Cults of the Beast” arises out of the ancient belief that all such doctrines are merely splinters of an old, decadent and forbidden religion which rejoiced in a return to the bestial (evil) side of man’s nature, worshipping “The Beast.” The belief is more instinc-tive than remembered now, but the name has stuck.
"The Beast" is a pretty generic phrase. I don't see the implication that Malar has anything to do with Christianity.
You have convinced me
I give up |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 11:17:00
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
#54, does not actually say that Malar is among them, but the title of Beastlord implies. quote:
''The collective title “Cults of the Beast” arises out of the ancient belief that all such doctrines are merely splinters of an old, decadent and forbidden religion which rejoiced in a return to the bestial (evil) side of man’s nature, worshipping “The Beast.” The belief is more instinc-tive than remembered now, but the name has stuck.
"The Beast" is a pretty generic phrase. I don't see the implication that Malar has anything to do with Christianity. |
| Kno |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 10:55:29
I think I'll lower the stats of gods to be on the level with the stats of archfiends from Fiendish Codexes, Asmodeus is CR 27.
The trumpet archons that sound horns to break the seven seals would be just right.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So who is Gog, aside from some Elder Evil dwelling in his own domain of Magog?
Magog is a magocracy, Thay or corrupted Halruaa from Peleveran. |
| Kno |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 09:49:12
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Well, I guess you would be throwing Bane up against the Triad to get your concept more or less on (Tyr-God, Ilmater-Jesus, Torm-Holy Spirit). So that makes Fzoul or Cyric the Antichrist.
The Triad and Cyric are good, what if Amaunator takes Tyr's place.
I don't know who to pick for the Horsemen of Hunger. |
| Kno |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 09:36:41
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
#54, does not actually say that Malar is among them, but the title of Beastlord implies. quote:
''The collective title “Cults of the Beast” arises out of the ancient belief that all such doctrines are merely splinters of an old, decadent and forbidden religion which rejoiced in a return to the bestial (evil) side of man’s nature, worshipping “The Beast.” The belief is more instinc-tive than remembered now, but the name has stuck.
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 06:31:09
-Regarding Malar, I think Kno might be talking about 'The Beast' that appears in said Book of Revelation. This guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_%28Bible%29.
-Don't ever recall a DRAGON Magazine about it, but... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 05:05:08
Earthmother was a completely separate deity from that of Chauntea, that is, until TSR cast a "mighty retcon" upon the six 'Moonshae' novels.
You have to take this into consideration, otherwise parts of the plot from the novels doesn't make as much sense without it -- mostly because Earthmother dies and Chauntea then assumes her position until Earthmother returns and forces Chauntea out from the druids that focused instead on Chauntea worship.
I'll note also that Brian James was never actually happy with that retcon, which is why he didn't acknowledge it in his "Moonshae" article. In fact, he hinted pretty strongly that Earthmother may indeed be a fey goddess.
By not acknowledging the retcon, Brian seems to have re-established the singular Earthmother as a divine entity unto herself with regard to the Moonshaes.
Perhaps this fey Earthmother is merely "a partial aspect of the Land" [the Moonshaes] with respect to Chauntea's overall placement as THE land overall. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 04:32:04
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
The Sage
quote:
Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
Is "the Beast" Kazgoroth? I've never been clear whether he's Malar, Bhaal, Bane, Talos or some other deity (possibly even a collective or composite one involving them all). (I view the Moonshae Earth Goddess are a collective goddess formed mostly of Chauntea, Silvanus, Selűne, Mielikki, and Mystra. A not-uncommon occurrence in pagan-derived faiths.)
I've always assumed that that Kazzie is some near-divine minion of Malar.
As for the Earthmother, I believe it's been explained that she was an aspect of Chauntea that was split off long ago, and recently (per 3E) reabsorbed back into Chauntea. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 02:04:48
quote:
The Sage
quote:
Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
Is "the Beast" Kazgoroth? I've never been clear whether he's Malar, Bhaal, Bane, Talos or some other deity (possibly even a collective or composite one involving them all). (I view the Moonshae Earth Goddess are a collective goddess formed mostly of Chauntea, Silvanus, Selűne, Mielikki, and Mystra. A not-uncommon occurrence in pagan-derived faiths.) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 01:37:26
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me? |
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