| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Saxmilian |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 14:08:42
Ok I have a player that was just dying to play a warforged so his recently depareted soul was placed in the body and viola, warforged player. Now comes the debate of, of standing guard and spied by a wild animal would said animal atatck without provocation? Why would it, it wont be tempted to eat a humanoid of wood and stone.
The trap drops the warforged into a pool filled with piranha, do they even bother attacking? or would they just consider him a log that fell into the water? Any ideas or comments?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 18:29:13
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Warforged might have complex technological guts but still be powered by magic. Basically a golem full of moving parts (incidentally, golems aren't just carved or molded from a single large lump of clay/stone/metal, their "organs" and "muscles" and such are discretely formed parts which require great knowledge to assemble).
Since Warforged are a bit Steampunk inspired they likely do have recognizable mechanisms like gears, sprockets, pistons, screws, nuts and bolts. They might have external-combustion "steam-powered" metabolism, they might use energy stored in springs and pendulums and gyroscopes, they might use alchemically generated electrical batteries and motors and wiring, they might even use internal combustion engines modeled after organic systems. For that matter they might even use actual components taken from organic systems, like a dragon's stomach or reformatted elven neural tissue or whatever. <snip>
Unfortunately, D&D already have something like you describe - Effigies - created by the Effigy Master (Complete Arcane, pg.30)
Eberron's Warforged are supposed to be more like Golems, albeit far more advanced. They are NOT supposed to be like Automatons (However, there is such a thing as a clockwork Golem, which muddies the waters quite a bit). Ergo, I think there are purely magical versions of humaniform automatons (Golems), technological variants (androids), and an amalgam of the two (Steampunk Robots, or 'Steambots'). I'm pretty sure the Eberron Warforge are purely magical in nature (although they could have 'magical organs' and alchemical fluids running through them, which makes them borderline Steampunk... Magipunk?)
FR's Warforge are not clearly defined - we have a dozen different 'human-like', golem-ish creatures to chose from - just drop the self-aware trait (Awakened) on them and you are good to go (for instance, a Tomb-tapper relieved of its 'geas' to acquire all magic could make a viable character option). Probably the best (and most directly applicable use of Eberron's rules) would be the Bloodforged from the Utter East; they are magical constructs, just like Warforged, and appear to be human in form (from the Blood & Magic VG).
So in other words, unlike Eberron, we have far more freedom (for once) in picturing how we want FR Warforged to be like; each DM may make his own choices, and use the rules from the Eb books (the best of both worlds). I personally prefer a clockwork variant from ancient Imaskar, but that's just me - there's no clear-cut canon either way here. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 04:59:26
I think I'd be interested in a novel about a multidisciplinary "renaissance man" character (Leonardo da Vinci, Nadul DaRoni, Leonard of Quirm, whatever). I mean some kind of fantastic hybrid between The Modern Prometheus and Life and Work of Leonardo with a good dose of Longsaddle ... a tale involving his obliviously brilliant battle against society's refusal to accept his revolutionary inventions and his warforged "monster", though not styled as a dark Frankenstein/Ravenloft horror tale. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 04:44:25
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Hmm, I wasn't thinking of using advanced mechanics and physics- basic concepts would suffice. Hydraulic pistons is not really a new idea, it's been around for a while. Most of the ideas I'm talking about were at least conceived of by people like Gallileo and Da Vinci, so the mechanics and physics involved could still work in Fearun.
So, something like the Gondsman construct forged by Techsmiths [from the 3e Faiths & Pantheons tome], perhaps?
...
Actually, considering that Gondsman are crafted from both wood and metal, the basic make-up of their forms would seem to be very much like EBERRON's warforged.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 03:48:30
Hmm, I wasn't thinking of using advanced mechanics and physics- basic concepts would suffice. Hydraulic pistons is not really a new idea, it's been around for a while. Most of the ideas I'm talking about were at least conceived of by people like Gallileo and Da Vinci, so the mechanics and physics involved could still work in Fearun. Remember, although gunpowder doesn't work, oil lamps still do, as do distilleries and certain other tech-inventions. A Gondsman would probably have a good understanding of things like copper batteries, which date from ancient Egyptian times, from recent evidence. Ditto for light bulbs, so that's not as new as we'd like to think, and is thus fair game for a Realmsian invention that could be adapted for use in a Warforged. It doesn't require a lot of research to find RW ideas that could still work in FR. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 03:29:18
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Perhaps they have the magical/mechanical equivalents of organs, notably a heart and lungs. [...] Think of an artificial heart, with some sort of oil-based fluid for blood, maybe instead of a healer's kit, they could carry around a bunch of spare parts to replace damaged ones.
You're conception is on the mark, for the most part. Warforged possess vessel-like assemblages throughout their forms, which resembles the circulatory system of organic creatures like ourselves.
quote:
(Do Warforged even breathe?)
No, they don't. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 03:23:25
Uh ... magic. We already know the physics of the Realms (and most other D&D worlds) has quirks and fundamentals that differ from our own; things like our gunpowder, chemistry, biology, superalloys, and electronics don't work there (or if they do, their workings are based on magical, alchemical, divine, and fantastic principles).
Warforged might have complex technological guts but still be powered by magic. Basically a golem full of moving parts (incidentally, golems aren't just carved or molded from a single large lump of clay/stone/metal, their "organs" and "muscles" and such are discretely formed parts which require great knowledge to assemble).
Since warforged are a bit steampunk inspired they likely do have recognizable mechanisms like gears, sprockets, pistons, screws, nuts and bolts. They might have external-combustion "steam-powered" metabolism, they might use energy stored in springs and pendulums and gyroscopes, they might use alchemically generated electrical batteries and motors and wiring, they might even use internal combustion engines modelled after organic systems. For that matter they might even use actual components taken from organic systems, like a dragon's stomach or reformatted elven neural tissue or whatever.
Warforged might be made from components that we (a technological society) could easily understand, though inhabitants of the Realms (pre-industrial peasants) would find them incomprehensible; thus only the most brilliant inventors, engineers, mages, and sages might understand how to construct warforged. A warforged might have Realms equivalents of a microcontroller, firmware, disk drives, and servo motors — inconceivably complex machinery in Faerûn. Alternately, they could be built from nanotechnology, genetically engineered cyborg-clones, robotic AIs ... basically much the same thing as just saying "magic", and again, people of the Realms wouldn't really have any clue how warforged operate. Nor do we. Our laws of physics and thermal/mechanical engineering approaches don't apply.
It's conceivable that (like living things) warforged would have layered circulatory systems riddled with tubes, hoses, pipes, and conduits to deliver and remove all sorts of fluids (lubricants, coolants, fuel, compressed air, synthetic biofluids, brain serum, toxic goo, wiper fluid). They're apparently able to "magically" replenish themselves. They probably leak all over the place when damaged. They might even use human blood (possibly modified).
I'm under the impression that warforged are highly variable; basically no two are alike unless perhaps made by the same creator. Some of them look like walking clunky angular BattleMechs, others look like Commander Data. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 01:32:50
MT, I wasn't meaning that as a lubricant. (Hmmm, metal guys needing lubricant- anyone ELSE see the "wrong factor" in that? Nah, guess it's just me...) I was referring to them having some sort of "radiator" inside to keep their parts from being frozen in place. Guess that wasn't as clear as I'd have liked.
Perhaps they have the magical/mechanical equivalents of organs, notably a heart and lungs. (Do Warforged even breathe?) Think of an artificial heart, with some sort of oil-based fluid for blood, maybe instead of a healer's kit, they could carry around a bunch of spare parts to replace damaged ones. I don't know about gears, but I could see prosthetics as a possibility. Screws and bolts, fulcrum-type joints, maybe even a power-supply pack (I'm thinking of the crude batteries built by ancient Egyptians here). Or they could even use solar or motion-active power source (like those watches that are powered by movement). I could possibly even see something hydraulic-based for some parts. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 00:29:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Do warforged even have gears? I've always pictured them as they are illustrated -- solid forms, with few moving parts, magically animated. I see them as being much like golems, in that regard: you provide the shape, the magic makes it move.
They don't have what you'd assume to be gears in the classic sense or conception of contruct/clockwork beings.
To be honest, we've never been told completely what composes the innards of a warforged. Only how they are made. And that doesn't lend itself to the possibility of gears in a warforged's form, all that much. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 23:38:22
But his gears were made of iron (hypothetically).
@Alystra - Anti-Freeze does not lubricate (not entirely true - it helps to lubricate and anti-rust the radiator), it is a coolant.
So although I find it very funny, theoretically speaking a steam-powered 'robot' SHOULD need a large amount of coolant. Even Nuclear Reactors are water-cooled (which is why plants are almost always located on or near large bodies of water).
So although Warforged (or 'Bloodforged' in FR) are magical in nature, and do not rely on steam or other thermo-based tech, I would imagine that a certain amount of heat build-up must be present in ANY powered device, even if just caused by the friction of the joints (which lubricant WOULD help with).
The human body uses blood to maintain its temperature, so it would make sense if some other 'magical' fluid were present inside a Warforge, to take the place of blood (and act as a coolant).
I have to wonder if this sort of thing gets discussed on Eberron forums; there should be some sort of fluid that provides the 'life' to the creatures. In the movie Short Circuit (which also happens to be about a self-aware construct), the robot begins to 'die' because it is leaking battery fluid.
Any suggestions for a name for this theoretical alchemcial 'fluid of life'? Elixer vitae is already taken.
Although that would work.........  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 21:06:40
Tin doesn't rust. Grumblemumblegrog. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 20:45:16
I would picture them using it to keep gears or whatever from freezing up in cold weather. So they don't end up like the tin Man did in Wizard of Oz. Anybody got an oil can? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 20:21:42
Only if you want them to (Mine do - I'm a bit of a Steampunk fan). 
Although in Eberron Canon I do not believe they do. They have a techno-organic (Yay! another useful bit from Marvel comics!) metabolism, though, with some sort of semi-alive material in-use for stuff like muscles and what-not (they remind me a bit of Colossus from Marvel, in fact).
However, my own knowledge of the setting doesn't go far beyond the CS book. I did read the first Eberron novel, which I can't recall many details of (that's TELLING), but there was a Warforged in it. He reminded me of Data from ST, and someone else I can't quite put a finger on. He seemed resigned to his lot in life, IIRC. Since the story took place in THE city, there was nothing really pertaining to this thread in it.
As for Warforged having 'anti-freeze'... that's friggin' hilarious! 
I'm just picturing one having to "pull over" to the side of the trail because it is over-heating.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:07:33
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Alystra - you're right it IS antifreeze I was thinking of. I was envisioning, that the various gear lubricants would all get dissipated into the water around the warforged when he falls in. This does lend itself to the tasting and not biting idea. Though, if described right, I think the PC would be very much under the impression that the fish were coming right for him.
Do warforged even have gears? I've always pictured them as they are illustrated -- solid forms, with few moving parts, magically animated. I see them as being much like golems, in that regard: you provide the shape, the magic makes it move. |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 15:42:14
Alystra - you're right it IS antifreeze I was thinking of. I was envisioning, that the various gear lubricants would all get dissipated into the water around the warforged when he falls in. This does lend itself to the tasting and not biting idea. Though, if described right, I think the PC would be very much under the impression that the fish were coming right for him. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 06:22:57
Yes, but the OP was asking if an animal WOULD fight. I think he's looking for a more realistic reaction, in which case, the answers above are most applicable. And as for the "stupid animal" idea- the simple answer to that is: Stupid animals are DEAD animals. This is why most creatures that are less intelligent than others of their kind usually do not survive to pass on their genes. In nature, your first mistake is usually your last.... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 05:25:36
Actually this time I chose the correct wording. Animals are not stupid simply because they're nonsapient, indeed some animals can regularly outsmart humans in certain ways. But having said that ... some animals are less intelligent than others of their kind, ie: they're stupid. A stupid animal might decide to bite into a warforged or zombie whereas a smarter animal wouldn't need to make that mistake.
Yes, almost all land-based animals decide things based on scent and sight. Few can smell as well as a bloodhound, though fewer still are as scent-blind as humans. Warforged might ooze synthetic or processed chemical/alchemical substances or they might be impossibly sterile, but chances are they'd still have a unique (and probably distasteful) scent that would make most animals wary of them.
Sage summed it up best: animals in D&D have a tendency to be treated as encounters, ie: they'll usually fight because the author/DM says so (regardless of whether it makes much sense). |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 03:03:43
Arik, you may be confusing an animal's lack of sapience with stupidity. There IS a big difference there. An animal will not generally attack anything much larger than itself unless to protect itself, its young, or its territory. Or if it is cornered or inflicted with a disease such as rabies that impedes mental functions. Animals would smell the Warforged even before they see it, and would probably hear it, too, as it would smell unlike anything they are familiar with, and would (generally) make more noise than the typical human Animals pay FAR more attention to the senses of hearing and smell than to sight alone. If they don't know what it is, they will usually not approach, whether to attack or not.
The issue of lubricants would apply only if the Warforged in question had a leak (was wounded), and even then,the animal would probably not approach the Warforged itself, but might instead sniff/lick at the drops it left behind. Incidentally that only affects certain animals like dogs and cats, not all of them. I've never yet heard of a case of a skunk or rabbit being poisoned by antifreeze. (Which is the only liquid I know of like what you described, that they ever ingest, in any case. I doubt there is any antifreeze in the Realms, though.) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 00:10:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally would assume that animals would ignore warforged. I'm certainly not an expert on the Eber-whatsit setting, but what little I know didn't mention any issues betwixt warforged and natural critters.
Most EBERRON lore on the subject is entirely dependent upon the whims of the author/designer. Most of the gaming material doesn't really suggest this is the case, but I recall warforged encounters in the novels, where upon animals have struck out against the constructs. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 21:54:53
Nothing would stop a stupid animal from trying to taste a piece of warforged. |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 21:42:38
Aren't some lubricants sweet tasting, though? I thought some put animals at risk, because they'll drink it even though it's toxic. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 20:34:15
As you've said above, a lot depends on the animal itself. Animals don't just randomly attack things. The more capable predators don't hunt things that make poor eating or that are too risky to attack. Most animals (just like most people) will cautiously avoid placing themselves in proximity with threats, they'll basically back off and warily proceed about their business from a safer distance. Animals (including humans) will attack when starving, angered, threatened, cornered, insane/suicidal, defending their property or territory or each other. More predatory animals will attack isolated humans, but do so cautiously, using force or ambush or pack/swarming or chase strategies. A solitary zombie aimlessly shuffling about might seem like an easy kill, but closer examination (and a whiff of unnatural death/necromancy) might be enough to convince a predatory animal to pick an easier target.
You mention mechanical gears and oils being noxious to animals, and thus largely avoided by them. An aura of necromancy/undeath might carry a similar odour. Animals might even abandon attack when they smell thunder and frost on the fingertips of their wimpy sorcerer prey.
Warforged act like living things but are essentially large machines. Animals might react to warforged the same way they'd react to a motorcycle. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 20:07:57
What about when a necromancer animates a very fresh corpse?
Would ghouls go after a zombie in that case? Just some stuff to think about.
There was a very fun adventure in Dungeon magazine once that I wanted to run but never had the chance: It featured a summoned demon that was practically torn-apart by a pack of Velociraptors. The premise was that normal animals fear and avoid creatures with a palpable evil aura (like fiends), but Dinosaurs have no such qualms (and are used to trying to take down things bigger and tougher then them).
Normal animals (even the fantasy variety) should shy away from creatures with any type of 'abnormal' aura; psuedo-natural, magical, Fiendish or other outer-planer, etc... it just seems to make sense.
Magical beasts (or just 'Beasts' in the rules) shouldn't be restricted this way - they have a smattering more intelligence and can usually reason things out on a primitive level. This is how I have always handled encounters like this - normal animals avoid humans (unless they are predators), so why should it be any different for a non-human?
Except for Elves - I see them being like the Na'vi of the Avatar movie. Animals would probably approach an elf. I don't know why, but it just seems right. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 19:46:21
Zombies are often putrified, mildewy, rotten, spoiled, diseased, toxic. Probably avoided by even the least picky scavenger or carrion feeder.
But "fresh" zombies ... they might have an unnatural, unwholesome, necromantic presence. Not a definable thing, more of a feeling of queasiness, nausea, discomfort. An unseen zombie might still emanate a palpable field of dread and coldness, unattuned with the natural/living world, enough to subconsciously indicate something is wrong to humans, enough to make most animals keep their distance.
In this detail the undead are more of a Ravenloft-style roleplaying consideration than a rule crunch. Hardy adventurers might not be bothered by such necro-anxiety (or, quite the opposite, they might become instantly alarmed). Dark priests and necromancers wouldn't be bothered, it's kinda their thing after all. Paladins might be driven to distraction if they can't slay a nearby undead the way their instinct demands, almost like having stinging ants crawling under their armour. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 18:53:59
This is how I look at it: Warforged are unnatural, and would be treated as such by animals. In other words, they react the same way they would with a machine in the Real World.
So Piranha would probably ignore the Warforged (unless your version uses some 'fleshy bits'), but a village dog would probably bark like crazy at it and chase it for several blocks.
A squirrel might stop in the middle of the path and just freeze, and birds would probably swoop at it (or land on it if it were motionless, and do what they like to do best, which would be pretty funny).
If you go a more Steampunk route with it (with gears and oily smell), then animals would avoid it - they detest that odor and won't bother with non-living stuff.
On the other hand, you just made me wonder what happens with zombies when they are in a region infested with carrion-eaters (scavengers). Me thinks that is a great (and funny as hell) plot for a light-hearted scenario.
I am picturing a fairly 'fresh' zombie being terrorized by Hyenas (or whatever), and it turning to the party and asking "can I get some help here?" Right there is the perfect April 1st plothook, made-to-order.
Okay.. that went off-topic... but don't I always?
Still funny though........ |
| Bakra |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 18:51:54
quote:
Originally posted by Saxmilian
Ok I have a player that was just dying to play a warforged so his recently depareted soul was placed in the body and viola, warforged player. Now comes the debate of, of standing guard and spied by a wild animal would said animal atatck without provocation? Why would it, it wont be tempted to eat a humanoid of wood and stone.
The trap drops the warforged into a pool filled with piranha, do they even bother attacking? or would they just consider him a log that fell into the water? Any ideas or comments?
It would depend on the wild animal. I never seen a bobcat attack a car but I have seen a buffalo charge a jeep. And I don’t know if animals can sense a soul in your campaign but if they can then go with Rhewtanis' idea. When it comes to piranha they would scatter when it (the warforged) hits the water. But the moment it starts to move around they would probably go in for a nibble. Then after tasting the inorganic material( stone, admanantite, wood) and organic material (vegetable matter) they would probably ignore it. Unless it was covered in blood before being dropped then it would be a whole new ballgame.
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| Rhewtani |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 18:15:42
I'd go with 3 rounds of fish attacks. Other animals might attack because of the unnatural soul aspect of it all. Like wolves and such. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 18:13:52
I personally would assume that animals would ignore warforged. I'm certainly not an expert on the Eber-whatsit setting, but what little I know didn't mention any issues betwixt warforged and natural critters. |
| Quale |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 17:04:22
supposedly the warforged are alive like all other races, but I never did buy that |
| Diffan |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 16:29:47
I would say they'd attack, at least for a limited time (a few rounds at most) to kill the intruder. Once they realize that the intruder is made of inorganic material, they'd probably stop. Just my own feeling though.
What's even a stranger concept is Warforged turning into animals!! Can we say BEAST WARS!! |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 14:19:01
One of the PCs in my campaign is a warforged. Very fun character in the realms. Anyways, for the question, I would probably have them attack him due to the disturbance he creates, but someone more knowledgable of Warforged/Ebberon might know more about them and if this would make sense. |
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