| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Arzakon |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 15:46:23
I've recently read some pages about spellcasting in the 4rd Edition. Even if most people disagree on the new spellcasting method, that kind of "Ritual" spellcasting was, more or less, already present in Quintessential Wizard (Moongoose), featuring a nice system of rituals, which could be used with (or without) the traditional casting system of 3rd Edition. This rituals were not like the 4rd edition ones, but anyway the idea of casting magic through complicated rituals which didn't use any spell slot was there.
The main idea about this post is about the end of the Weave and if some of the new forms of magic could be used before de Spellplague. I'm still playing in 1372-74 CV, so the Spellplague didn't hit my world yet. Anyway, the end of the Weave brought some ideas to me that I want to discuss.
As far as I know, spell levelled system was some sort of "magics made easy" system used by Mystra, through the Weave, to help spellcasters throughout the world. With Mystra's ban, however, high magic could only be accessed through Epic Spellcasting, a quite different magic system. Epic spells, as I understand them, manipulate raw magic without the Weave, as Dead Magic zones does not affect them the same way as "normal" magic. So I assume there are ways, even before de Spellplague, to cast spells without Mystra's help.
On the other hand, access to the Weave may be severed by Mystra if a spellcaster doesn't fit with the goddess (for example, a guy tearing the weave with his own magic). Shar may do the same with the Shadow Weave. And finally, the question. If 4rd edition has brought a spellcasting system without the Weave and there are enough evidences in 3rd edition and pre-Spellplague Forgotten about magic using without the weave, could it be possible to design some kind of "crossover" ritual spellcasting system for magic users which do not have access to the Weave or the Shadow Weave?
I'm fine with 3rd edition magic system, but the end of the Weave gave me some ideas about possible "outcast" mages trying to develop new methods of spellcasting, which could be somewhat similar to those used in 4rd edition.
I know the Weave has existed for millenia, and even evil magic users are comfortable using the Weave or the Shadow Weave, so there is no reason to believe there have been any magic users throught the Realms' history which developed other spellcasting systems, but I think that an outcast mage, forbidden to use any magic and isolated for years, could be a nice idea for a great adventure. Of course, the numbers of these "outcast" mages should be very low, or even non-existent, but I just think about the possibility of this kind of things happening.
I'm sorry for any mistakes, misunderstandings or anything unclear, because I'm brainstorming in a foreing language after all, but I think the main idea is clear enough. Is it possible to develop an alternate system of spellcasting without the weave before the Spellplague?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Quale |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 12:51:25
Right, I don't know then why they say that elves are creatures of the Weave and the high magic is not. |
| Arzakon |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 10:35:50
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Epic magic is also a part of the Weave, the difference is that epic/high/circle magic was not recorded on the Nether Scrolls, such magic originates from the fey creator race, and the Imaskari got it from them.
That doesn't make any sense to me. I do not recall the quote exactly, but AFAIK, epic magic has no limit, just like old netherese magic. Moreover, you can make epic spells similar or equal to some powerful spells made before Mystra's ban. So, if you can make spells which bypass Mystra's ban, I would argue that you're actually working with raw magic, something the godess cannot limit; the weave helps spellcasters because it makes magic easier, but it also limits the power of spells, to prevent things like Karsus Avatar and some other wondrous and terrible magic.
I think I read it somewhere... I'll have to search for it. |
| Quale |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 09:16:24
Epic magic is also a part of the Weave, the difference is that epic/high/circle magic was not recorded on the Nether Scrolls, such magic originates from the fey creator race, and the Imaskari got it from them. |
| Arzakon |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 06:57:33
Anyway, regarding Imaskar, as I said on the beginning of this thread, epic magic, as far as I know, is not practiced within the Weave; its very rules are different, and its potential is bigger than normal magic. Even if they were spellcasters using the weave (I assume they are, because the creator races disappeared nearly -30.000 DR), their blockade against gods must be non weave magic.
On the other hand, most epic spells resemble those made by netherese arcanist, so we could assume Imaskari artificers, as pre-karsus' folly spellcasters, could make this kind of magic within the Weave... but I think that Mystryl, even if she was Chaotic Neutral, wouldn't have approved a magical blockade against the very gods themselves. Furthermore, nethereres had, for some time, the Nether Scrolls helping them, and they were "watched" by the Terraseer. Imaskar didn't have any nether scrolls (nothing have been said about it), neither did they have a sarrukh lich taking care of them.
Finally, there's one more thing regarding the barrier of Imaskar Empire. It wasn't until ToT it was disabled by Ao himself, as the mulhorandi and untheric gods, who managed to infiltrate within the area of the spell, were not able to destroy it, and they were stuck over Faerūn. Such powerful magic, IMO, cannot be subject to the Weave, and may fit better with the "raw magic manipulating" scheme.
So, the Imaskari would have probably used the Weave, why not, but their most powerful spells, for sure, were made "over" the weave, at least from my point of view.
Netherese arcanists, though, made constant use of high level spells, but always within the weave. Except for Karsus Avatar, I do not recall any spell as powerful as the imaskari barrier. Even their floating cities relied upon mythallars. Overall, I consider netherese spellcasters as... well, traditional spellcasters bound to the Weave, more or less. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 00:59:54
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
yes, but that still doest explaine why or how the Imakarkari cast they powerful spells... did they use thee weave to block out gods?
I've always assumed that this was at least partially due to the Imaskari having such mastery of dimensional magicks. Who knows exactly the extent of what they were able to achieve -- at least from an arcane perspective -- when the laws governing planes and dimensions were theirs to bend. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 23:15:22
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
yes, but that still doest explaine why or how the Imakarkari cast they powerful spells... did they use thee weave to block out gods?
Uh... How do the Imaskari even fit into this mix? I'm not seeing the connection betwixt Imaskari and mythallars...
But all that aside, I don't see anything that indicates the Imaskari didn't use the Weave. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 21:07:41
yes, but that still doest explaine why or how the Imakarkari cast they powerful spells... did they use thee weave to block out gods? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 17:10:17
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
It is simply not possible that I am wrong ... but...
If the weave existed before Mystra 1.0, then why was is a nessesity to create the Mythalar for the Netherese people. The magic at that time, was to my knowledge raw and unfiltered, and it was the first Mystra who created this filter. Also peole here at candle keep have said that there are magics that do not use the weave or shadow weave. If its not possible to pre-date the weave on toril, how then can magic not use the weave???
And also... some magic still exist in Dead or Anti magic zones? How is this possible ???
Mythallars were giant batteries, and they were necessary for things like keeping the enclaves afloat. Using mythallars to power quasi-magical items meant it was far easier and cheaper to craft such items, as opposed to making full-on magical items. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 17:03:16
It is simply not possible that I am wrong... but...
If the weave existed before Mystra 1.0, then why was is a nessesity to create the Mythalar for the Netherese people. The magic at that time, was to my knowledge raw and unfiltered, and it was the first Mystra who created this filter. Also peole here at candle keep have said that there are magics that do not use the weave or shadow weave. If its not possible to pre-date the weave on toril, how then can magic not use the weave???
And also... some magic still exist in Dead or Anti magic zones? How is this possible ???
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| Arzakon |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 11:03:06
So, may I ask a final question? Is there any reference of when did Mystra create the Weave exactly? That would be very helpful. As the scribes above said, it was created during the War of Light and Darkness, and the Creator Races were there before that war. When did that war begin? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 05:08:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Just a quick post from little me...
The weave was first introdused by Mystra 1.0 after the fall of netherill... get hold of some ancient Pre-weave magic like the Sarrukh liches used to create the Nether Scrolls, or something like that. Then you would have magic that not only worked in dead or anti magic zones but also magic that transcended any for of weave based protection spells!!!
Happy gaming!
No, the Weave existed pre-Netheril. We have plenty of references to that fact.
Indeed. One need only read Ed's numerous replies on the subject, also. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 04:33:08
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Just a quick post from little me...
The weave was first introdused by Mystra 1.0 after the fall of netherill... get hold of some ancient Pre-weave magic like the Sarrukh liches used to create the Nether Scrolls, or something like that. Then you would have magic that not only worked in dead or anti magic zones but also magic that transcended any for of weave based protection spells!!!
Happy gaming!
No, the Weave existed pre-Netheril. We have plenty of references to that fact. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 19:18:38
Just a quick post from little me...
The weave was first introdused by Mystra 1.0 after the fall of netherill... get hold of some ancient Pre-weave magic like the Sarrukh liches used to create the Nether Scrolls, or something like that. Then you would have magic that not only worked in dead or anti magic zones but also magic that transcended any for of weave based protection spells!!!
Happy gaming! |
| Diffan |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 19:30:29
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
Wow, man, that page rules! I even found an "incantation" magic system in d20srd which doesn't completely fit with what I have in mind but provides quite useful information regarding rules for ritual spellcasting. Thanks!
No prob. There was another one, a data-base for all the WotC material on Crystal Keep but the information got pulled as requested by WotC  . Still, Pathfinder has the same d20 info, just Google Pathfinderd20 and you should get a page very similar but uses their ruleset (pretty much D&D v3.75). |
| Arzakon |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 01:15:08
Wow, man, that page rules! I even found an "incantation" magic system in d20srd which doesn't completely fit with what I have in mind but provides quite useful information regarding rules for ritual spellcasting. Thanks! |
| Diffan |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 17:03:28
OGL means Open Gaming License. Basically the free will to utilize anything that's supported by the System Reference Document or SRD found here---> d20srd. If the product is OGL then it follows the SRD rules and format. |
| Arzakon |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 13:59:33
Erm... may I ask something? What does OGL mean? :P.
Anyway, I've been looking on wikis all over the internet and there is some information regarding the Artificers, and even some homebrew ritual systems. I may use a thing or two. You all have been quite helpful on the matter :), by the way. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 20:39:22
The question is if it's possible to cast spells without being able to touch the Weave? And the answer is Yes, from Markus's lengthy explination  /
Now the question is, how does one incorporate that "alternative" spellcasting using the v3.5/OGL/d20 rule set and how to keep it balanced while still maintaining it's own flavor?
By using Ritual magic, one might be able to utilize magic but not in the practical, easy way that most spellcasters do. This is why I've pointed to the Artificer since it uses infusions and not spells. These infusions can take some time to cast, usually a few minutes but it's effects last hours instead of minutes. One just need to re-word and re-work the class to be less tech-savvy and more magical and vöila.
As I also mentioned, one can use the Wheel of Time method and strand "weaves" of magic together to create spell effects. This would also mean another class system altogether, but if that's cool with the OP, then I don't see a problem. And it's OGL so it's compatible with v3.5 material.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 18:18:39
The Shadow Weave is all the proof you need that magic systems beyond Mystra's Weave exist. The arrival of Shade certainly predates and foreshadows SP/4E revisions to magic (pun intended).
Were mythals constructed/maintained through Weave magic? What of phaerimm defiler-style life/magic drain? Finally: do the Nether Scrolls describe fundamental magic as it's always exists, regardless of whether the Weave (or even Shadow Weave) exists? (Remember that each race or even each reader studying these scrolls learns magic in a slightly different way; it's conceivable that the scrolls somehow put their contents in a "true context" that is always consistent with what the reader can comprehend and with the local laws of magic.) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 17:29:24
I haven't read through the thread, only the OP, so fogive me if I am repeating anyone.
The Weave (and Mystryl) was created during the War of Light and Darkness. We know from 4e (and early 1e sources) that the Creator races pre-existed the War and the sundering. The Creator Races not only cast spells, but they created artifacts and magics that exceed much of what could be accomplished in 1e/2e/3e.
What this means is that the situation after the Spellplague is very close (but not identical) to the way the world worked pre-WoL&D and pre-Sundering. Magic is much more potent, but also harder to wield (which translates into the rules as a magic-user having less variety of magic at-hand, but being able to cast the same magics over and over). Rituals ALWAYS existed - the only difference between pre- and post-plague is that now the Rituals must be performed at the time the magic is to be called upon. The same rituals were performed in 1e/2e/3e, but they were performed during the memorization process, and worked in much the same way as Ed describes 'Hanging Spells'. The ritual was performed in advance and readied for use during an adventure. Yes, I realize their are some differences, but they are mechanical, and we need not address this from a meta-gaming perspective.
I could go out on a limb here and say that the Weave almost acted like a 'storage area' for readied spells, one that was easy to use and also acted as a filter to block some of the more harmful affects of certain types of magic (which is canon, but never really detailed). Considering the odd nature of deific magic pre-palgue, I would even suppose that divine spells were also stored within the weave (which is how Mystra was able to block divine magic in certain, specific situations). Ergo, Gods granted spells directly (which Mystra had no control over), but they were stored - under the old system(s) - within the Weave for ready use by the priests. That could explain much.
But I've veered off topic yet again. 
The point is, magic pre-existed the Weave, existed after the Weave collapsed, and also existed in various forms (Pluma & Hishna magic, Runes, etc...) DURING the Weave, without any connection to the Weave.
As for Epic/High magic, I would say those are merely 'modern' names for what is actually pre-weave methods of casting magic, which is what the Creator Races used. Note that the Elves in Evermeet used a High Magic Ritual before coming to Toril, which means that High Magic is NOT reliant upon the Weave at all. As of 3e, we know that High magic is just an Elf-specific form of Epic magic, so epic (non-weave) magic is precisely what the Creator Races (including the Elven forebears - the Fey) would have been using.
The Weave was NOT 'all magic' - that was just the spin Mystra's priests put upon it. We do not know how much 'truth' her priesthood and Chosen knew, but we do know for a fact that other forms of magic existed, thus proving the lie of their dogma.
The simple answer is YES, other forms of spellcasting were always possible, but most folks took the 'easy solution'. Just like modern humans go to a market for their food, rather then hunting and gathering for themselves. The simpler method, historically, will become the dominant one, always. That doesn't mean we couldn't hunt and grow our own food, but most of us don't. This is how it works with magic and spellcasting. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 15:09:23
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
I've never read anything about Eberron, and I don't own any book related to it. Is there any kind of legal online resource for that "Artificers" you told me? The only Artificers I know are those from Imaskar :P. There's even a homebrew Artificer prestige class on D&D Wiki.
Hmmm....I'm sure you can find the v3.5 Eberron Campaign Setting book online @ Amazon.com or something similar. And I'm sure if you Google Eberron Campaign Setting PDFs they'll be ways of downloading it. I'm pretty sure this isn't the best way to go about it, however.
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
Seriously, I've never heard anything about Wheel of Time RPG. This is the first time :/. These kind of replies make me feel like there's a lot of wonderful games I'm missing while I play on the Realms :P. I'll look for it also. I'm really interested in any other d20 spellcasting system so I can add it to my games whenever I find it suitable for my needs. Thanks a lot.
WotC did quite a few campaign settings with other party publishers, such as the World of Warcraft campaign setting with Sword and Sorcery and even Dragonlance. These, however, never really caught on and didn't produce many supplements. Warcraft had a few books, but nothing as significan as Eberron or Forgotten Realms. Again, I'd check Amazon for the Wheel of Time books as well. |
| Arzakon |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 12:12:51
I've never read anything about Eberron, and I don't own any book related to it. Is there any kind of legal online resource for that "Artificers" you told me? The only Artificers I know are those from Imaskar :P. There's even a homebrew Artificer prestige class on D&D Wiki.
Seriously, I've never heard anything about Wheel of Time RPG. This is the first time :/. These kind of replies make me feel like there's a lot of wonderful games I'm missing while I play on the Realms :P. I'll look for it also. I'm really interested in any other d20 spellcasting system so I can add it to my games whenever I find it suitable for my needs. Thanks a lot. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 11:16:11
Ahhh, now I understand it. What you want is an alternative route to spellcasting that doesn't fit the normal way of the traditional wizard or cleric. This would be designed for someone who's been "cut off" from the Weave and thus rendered powerless. Much like how in the Wheel of Time novels the Aes Sedi can cut others from the True Source. Now I understand why you didn't want to create a whole new class or PrC to utilize this style of magic.
Hmmm, well I've never recalled where a mage was severed from the magical conduit of the Weave in any Forgotten Realms novel save one, The Bladesinger. He was a Reshemi 'Old One' who tried to use too much power at once and was burned out, magic now eludes him and he cannot cast spells. So while I think it's an extreamly rare case, it's possible.
If you really want an alternate style of spellcasting, I'm suggesting you look at already created sources and add them into your current game. The first and easiest one would be Artificers from Eberron. Now, the flavor of the class might not be what your looking for, but I'm just talking about mechanics here. Using that class as a foundation to take the Infusion spell-list, many of which require minutes to cast for longer duration, and apply that style to something different. This class is also designed to infuse and create magical items with little difficulty. I'd check that out before trying to create a whole new sub-division of magic.
Another way is to steal straight from the Wheel of Time RPG that Wizrds produced a few years ago. They deal with the "Weaves" and their spellcasting system is different, yet balanced using the OGL/d20 rules. This would give you a different feel altogether and might help explain how magic users who're 'burnt out' can still take strands of Mystra's weave to do magic. |
| Arzakon |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 20:13:13
Mmmm... first of all, thanks for your time :P.
That feat looks like what I was thinking about. Still, I'll work anyway on the Seed Spellcasting system, and maybe I'll made it necessary to have the feat to make that kind of magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Are you using the Rituals with a non-weave Faerūn? If so, I still think Rituals would work just fine, just utilizing the Raw magical power. Make it more about flavor than mechanics for this point. Additionaly, you really don't need spell slots for these rituals since they take so much time. Have them be inscribed in a ritual book, usable at all times but the spellcasting time would be lenghty, again in terms of Minutes or Hours for casting.
In fact, I'm still using the Weave; that's why I insisted so much on the fact that there would be few, or none, spellcasters which would actually use the ritual spellcasting opposed to the level system. Such a waste of time when anyone can just learn the traditional ways of magic? My idea is to make it possible just to add the possibility of outcast, banned mages whose magic talents were lost due to... well, anything. I don't think severing the Weave would be only available to Mystra, maybe an epic malfunctioning spell, or the rage of Shar.... there are a lot of possibilites. What I want is to make an alternate but coexistent magic system. About the time, it's fine, I think rituals should take a lot of time. That would prevent mages from using fireballs, magic missiles and so on, but who cares? Longer time, longer effects. The mage concept of 4rd edition, a mage who needs time to cast long time effect rituals and prepare before a battle, a mage whose powers are not spontaneous... that kind of mage is just wonderful.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Magical items with stored magical energy work without the weave. Wands of magic missile from pre-spellplague work just fine in a post-spellplague Realms. As far as not utilizing the weave, there is still magic in the Realms, as presented in all the 4E-FR work so there's no problem there. And magical items are still imbued using magic, just no longer required for a wizard to add his "life-force" anymore (in the form of XP).
I didn't know that. That changes everything. So I assume you could just create magic items without the Weave, but then again, there is a question: those items would not be affected by Dead Magic zones, so they would have a clear advantage over their "cousins". I would rather consider creating non-weave magical items more difficult as they're not attuned to the Weave or the Shadow Weave.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
When I get a chance, I'll delve into my PHB's for the rituals and convert some in the style your looking for. Maybe it'll work out that way?
I'd really appreciate that. I'm not used to 4th edition anyway (omg, I was writing 4rd instead of 4th, my apologies :P), because I'm still playing 3rd edition and I don't want to start over again. I just read some pages, but not the whole system.
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| Diffan |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 19:42:13
I'm going to point/counter-point your post, hope that's cool with you.
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
Well, actually I didn't think about the possibility of non-spellcasting classes to perform rituals, neither did I think about merging arcane and divine magic. That's an issue I didn't take into account; after all, even divine magic is magic, but D&D has always banned arcanists from using healing and restoration magic. At the moment, I think I'd rather let ritual casting only for spellcasting classes, and with the traditional split between divine and arcane magic. Maybe later I'd consider changing some of these issues, but my main concern is about creating a rational and balanced ritual casting system somewhat limited to the traditional boundaries of magic in 3rd edition.
Honestly, it's not a big deal. Making it only accessable to spellcasting classes makes it more balanced. The Ritual Caster feat would probably have some sort of spellcasting prerequisite, it could look like this:
Ritual Caster [General]
You've learned the intricate process that allows a caster to perform unique and difficult rituals.
Prerequisite: Must be able to cast 1st level arcane or divine spells, Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks.
Benefit: You can perform ritual magic. The highest ritual spell you can cast is equal to the highest level spell that you can cast using arcane or divine magic. If you can cast both arcane and divine magic, you must choose one when you select this feat.
Special: You may seletct this feat multiple times. Each time you do, you can cast ritual spells of another power source, either Arcane or Divine.
While this opens the door to multiclassing, any class wishing to utilize higher Rituals would require greater ranks in either Knowledge and more levels in a spellcasting class.
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
My main concerns are these:
Balanced ritual system: Moongoose system (I still have to read more on 4rd edition) just requires longer times for spellcasting. With balanced I mean that magic without the Weave should be quite difficult, adding not only time, but other things. I know I just cannot change the whole spell level system because it would require a lot of time, but I think that these kind of magic should not be only a way to be a mage without "spell slots".
Are you using the Rituals with a non-weave Faerūn? If so, I still think Rituals would work just fine, just utilizing the Raw magical power. Make it more about flavor than mechanics for this point. Additionaly, you really don't need spell slots for these rituals since they take so much time. Have them be inscribed in a ritual book, usable at all times but the spellcasting time would be lenghty, again in terms of Minutes or Hours for casting.
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
Spellcasting classes: I'm not thinking about creating a new 20 level class, or even a prestige class; I'd rather use the main spellcasting classes as templates. For example, the mage could learn to perform ritual magic without the Weave and he will still advance as the normal mage; I'd only change the casting system. Even if the idea of a Warrior making a tiny but useful ritual sounds interesting, I want to keep magic a "special" thing, limited to traditional strong spellcasting classes. Maybe a feat that would ban the access to the spell level system and open the new one for spellcasting classes, but I'm not sure.
Again, utilize the feat above and you should be fine. Don't limit the ritual casting to one class, but make it accessable to all spellcasting classes.
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
Skills: Just as you've suggested, the use of skills would be necessary for spellcasting. This would add some flavor to the "knowledgeable" magician; I've always loved the old librarian/magician theme.
I agree, as I've seen most people just use their Knowledge checks to gain some info on Monsters they fight. This allows them to utilize that skill way more often and have it be worth putting lots of ranks into.
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
Magic Items: Just how would someone create magic items without the Weave? As the books suggest, magic items, Weave or Shadow Weave, need them to work properly. Artifacts, on the other hand, seem to work even without the weave, so creating magical items without the Weave should be possible, but, again, it should be quite difficult, even more than ritual spellcasting, or even impossible (only gods may create magic items, for example). It reminds me on the Mythallar; the Weave will work for magical items like the Mythallar for pseudo magical items.
Magical items with stored magical energy work without the weave. Wands of magic missile from pre-spellplague work just fine in a post-spellplague Realms. As far as not utilizing the weave, there is still magic in the Realms, as presented in all the 4E-FR work so there's no problem there. And magical items are still imbued using magic, just no longer required for a wizard to add his "life-force" anymore (in the form of XP).
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
And that's all, I think. Anyway, I think the "reduced" Epic Spellcasting is a good idea, and I'll take it into account. That would make it possible to play a mage in a quite interesting way. Wizards of the Coast forgive me, but it reminds me somehow of the Sphere system in World of Darkness. The mage would actually need to create new rituals, which he could perform after the research, using basic magic seeds as with the Epic Spellcasting system. The mage could advance in his class learning new seeds and making them more powerful as he gains new levels. Anyway, I'll take a look at 4rd edition books, just to read a little more and see if I can get new ideas from them. By the way, thanks for your reply.
When I get a chance, I'll delve into my PHB's for the rituals and convert some in the style your looking for. Maybe it'll work out that way? |
| Arzakon |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 18:54:20
Well, actually I didn't think about the possibility of non-spellcasting classes to perform rituals, neither did I think about merging arcane and divine magic. That's an issue I didn't take into account; after all, even divine magic is magic, but D&D has always banned arcanists from using healing and restoration magic. At the moment, I think I'd rather let ritual casting only for spellcasting classes, and with the traditional split between divine and arcane magic. Maybe later I'd consider changing some of these issues, but my main concern is about creating a rational and balanced ritual casting system somewhat limited to the traditional boundaries of magic in 3rd edition.
My main concerns are these:
Balanced ritual system: Moongoose system (I still have to read more on 4rd edition) just requires longer times for spellcasting. With balanced I mean that magic without the Weave should be quite difficult, adding not only time, but other things. I know I just cannot change the whole spell level system because it would require a lot of time, but I think that these kind of magic should not be only a way to be a mage without "spell slots".
Spellcasting classes: I'm not thinking about creating a new 20 level class, or even a prestige class; I'd rather use the main spellcasting classes as templates. For example, the mage could learn to perform ritual magic without the Weave and he will still advance as the normal mage; I'd only change the casting system. Even if the idea of a Warrior making a tiny but useful ritual sounds interesting, I want to keep magic a "special" thing, limited to traditional strong spellcasting classes. Maybe a feat that would ban the access to the spell level system and open the new one for spellcasting classes, but I'm not sure.
Skills: Just as you've suggested, the use of skills would be necessary for spellcasting. This would add some flavor to the "knowledgeable" magician; I've always loved the old librarian/magician theme.
Magic Items: Just how would someone create magic items without the Weave? As the books suggest, magic items, Weave or Shadow Weave, need them to work properly. Artifacts, on the other hand, seem to work even without the weave, so creating magical items without the Weave should be possible, but, again, it should be quite difficult, even more than ritual spellcasting, or even impossible (only gods may create magic items, for example). It reminds me on the Mythallar; the Weave will work for magical items like the Mythallar for pseudo magical items.
And that's all, I think. Anyway, I think the "reduced" Epic Spellcasting is a good idea, and I'll take it into account. That would make it possible to play a mage in a quite interesting way. Wizards of the Coast forgive me, but it reminds me somehow of the Sphere system in World of Darkness. The mage would actually need to create new rituals, which he could perform after the research, using basic magic seeds as with the Epic Spellcasting system. The mage could advance in his class learning new seeds and making them more powerful as he gains new levels. Anyway, I'll take a look at 4rd edition books, just to read a little more and see if I can get new ideas from them. By the way, thanks for your reply. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 18:04:10
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
I never meant to say that 4rd Edition system can't handle the Weave :P. Moreover, I think this system is actually quite interesting for roleplaying purposes regarding magic using. That's why I want people to post their ideas on how to handle a good ritual casting system for 3rd edition.
The question about the Weave was just about providing enough evidence about the possibility to use magic without the spellcasting system of 3rd edition; it wasn't an attack on 4rd edition at all :).
It's all good. I didn't mean for my post to come off sounding passive-aggressive or super defensive. Just stating an opinion about the differences in magics through the editions.
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
Anyway, the idea behind this post is not to tell people I'm going to use Moongoose ritual spellcasting on my games for outcast mages who angered Shar and Mystra (who would do that? :P), because I don't need to make a post to do that; I just want people to give some kind of advice on how to make a nice crossover with 4rd edition system, because, after all, Moongoose system still relies on the levelled system, and it's more an addition than an alternate way.
Hmm....well how about still using the rules for Epic Spellcasting, just turning down the Spellcraft DCs, gp amount for the ritual, and changing the numeric effect/duration to minutes or Hours?
The concerns I'm seeing with the conversion is that 4E converted 3E spells that weren't necessarily "combative" and put those into rituals. You want to keep the style of 4E's rituals yet revert them back to 3e? Doing this would require you to exclude all the spells normally found in v3.5-turned-4E ritual from the 3e classes' spells lists. Another delemma would be restriction to said rituals. In 4E, all rituals can be access through the Ritual Casting feat. This allows any and all classes to obtain rituals, so would you limit rituals to specific classes or keep it as is?
Since I'm AFB at the moment, I can't give you an accurate example, but from my memory take the Raise Dead spell/ritual. By making it a ritual, you're allowing other, non-divine classes and even non-spellcasting classes access to this spell. Answer these questions first, then move into how you want to level said spells.
I think you should keep it simple in regards to spell-level of rituals. Spell-casting classes that obtain the Ritual Caster feat use their CL for determining the highest level of ritual they can cast. Non-spellcasting classes that take the Ritual Caster feat can only use 1/2 character level for determining the highest level of ritual they can cast. When they take levels in spell-casting classes, these classes stack for determining the highest level ritual you can cast. For example, a fighter 6/wizard 3 that takes the Ritual Caster feat would qualify for 3rd level rituals (1/2 fighter=3 + wizard 3 = CL 6th). This is alot like the Book of Nine Swords approach to the Martial Disciplines.
As for the level of the rituals themselves, an easy way would be to use their old v3.5 level. A Raise Dead ritual would be 4th level and you would need a be a Caster Level 7th to perform this ritual. Taking the Skills checks and all from 4E, you can use Knowledge (Arcane) and Knowledge (Divine) for the appropriate skill checks. |
| Arzakon |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 16:47:06
I never meant to say that 4rd Edition system can't handle the Weave :P. Moreover, I think this system is actually quite interesting for roleplaying purposes regarding magic using. That's why I want people to post their ideas on how to handle a good ritual casting system for 3rd edition.
The question about the Weave was just about providing enough evidence about the possibility to use magic without the spellcasting system of 3rd edition; it wasn't an attack on 4rd edition at all :).
Anyway, the idea behind this post is not to tell people I'm going to use Moongoose ritual spellcasting on my games for outcast mages who angered Shar and Mystra (who would do that? :P), because I don't need to make a post to do that; I just want people to give some kind of advice on how to make a nice crossover with 4rd edition system, because, after all, Moongoose system still relies on the levelled system, and it's more an addition than an alternate way. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 16:34:39
I actually prefer the 4E magic system to the 3e/v3.5 one mainly because it doesn't hamper spellcasters early in their career. But aside from that, why not use the system you detailed above?
It really depends on what the ritual does to figure out what level it is, or even what would be required to cast it. Keep in mind that these rituals are always done outside of combat, so their casting time would be measured in minutes or hours. I think this is honestly how non-combative Divination spells should've been handled in v3.5 vs. willy nilly casting, like Clariaudience/Clairvoyance for example, all the time.
But what I also find frustrating is the thought that 4E's spellcasting system can't handle the weave. I just don't think that's true at all. In fact, theres little to no canonical evidence that says wizards in Faerūn only cast X amount of 3rd level spells in regards to pre-spellplage Realms. 4E spellcasting can just as easily be supported by the weave as any prior edition. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 15:52:47
quote:
Is it possible to develop an alternate system of spellcasting without the weave before the Spellplague?
Anything is possible. For which D&D edition?
You've also already answered your own question in your first paragraph. |
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