| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Razz |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 05:01:37
Ok, the Bloodstone Lands of Vaasa and Damara are pretty new, over 350 years I believe, because the Great Glacier had receded that far at the time.
I believe before the Great Glacier, there was the giant empire, Ostoria, correct? I can't remember details, but I'm curious if anyone could tell me what inhabitants were in the area before the nations of Vaasa and Damara, and before the Great Glacier covered the land from Ulutiu's slumber. I know the dwarves were there before the humans, though I don't know if they were settling to mine or if there was actually a dwarven kingdom at some point. I know there're Underdark entrances, meaning there was probably at least a little interaction between the Underdark and the Cold Lands.
It'll help me with deciding what sorts of ancient ruins and cultures would be hidden/discovered in the area. Dwarven, few Human, and Giant ruins sound about right I believe? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 10 Dec 2010 : 21:49:08
Just in a few weeks I will be putting up a booklet on the area of The Ride. It will have a good deal of information regarding this thread. |
| coach |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 03:49:35
"""Personally, I think the Citadel of the Raven was the place the Kingkiller Star ritual was performed (and elves and humans were both involved in those events, although it was the Elves that actually performed the magic). Or it actually may have been in or near the lands controlled by Orchtrien (the dragon featured in that story in Realms of the Elves) - his lands were said to be NE of the High Forest, which was much greater in size back then (probably right up to the shores of the Narrow sea). It may have even been his capitol, Dawnfire, which would have been rebuilt several times over by whomever controlled it (it was said to be an immense city-sized castle... just like the Citadel of the Raven)."""
in the Rogue Dragon Trilogy and GHotR, this Kingkiller citadel is depicted as being WAY to the North, so Citadel of the Raven is probably out by being too far south
the first Ancient Elven citadel in the Rogue Dragon Trilogy is listed as being in the Novalurond Mts of the Great Glacier and that the party in that novel had to go even farther north to get to the Kingkiller citadel
GHotR lists the Kingkiller citadel as being located in the "northernmost reaches of Toril" which to me says a North Pole type area |
| coach |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 03:39:30
c. -4000 DR
Duergar carve out a kingdom in deep caverns below the Great Glacier
GHotR p26 |
| coach |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 20:30:11
don't know the source of this as it was deleted on my outline:
~ -2500 – The Dwarven clans from the mountains south and west of Mulhorand and Unther moved northward after their mines were exhausted and settled in the mountains between the Great Ice Sea and the Great Glacier and founded the Ice Kingdom of Dareth. Dareth’s first king was Orloebar Snowbeard |
| coach |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 19:52:55
re-posted from the Questions for George Krashos thread
quote:
The following timeline entries may be of assistance (all dates in DR):
-6850 The moon elves of the Yuirwood travel to the forest of Saerdath (Modern: Gray Forest), and establish the realm of Larlotha.
-2457 The Nar defeat the hobgoblin hordes in battle and force them west and south into the uninhabited lands of Caerthiilor where the hobgoblins establish the realm of Haekrukkha. The Nar humans settle the plains on the northern fringes of the Riildath.
c. -2440 The hobgoblins of Haekrukkha raid the forests of Larlotha for the first time, beginning over a century of skirmishes, attacks and invasions between the two realms.
-2287 In response to forest fires lit by the hobgoblins of Haekrukkha, the elves of Larlotha begin their final, genocidal war against the humanoids.
-2284 The dwarves of the Earthfast Mountains ally with the moon elves of Larlotha against the hobgoblins.
-2281 The hobgoblins of Haekrukkha are defeated and their realm is shattered by the combined forces of the dwarves and moon elves. The elves of Larlotha, led by their warrior-queen Eldratha, suffer grievously in the final battles losing almost a whole generation of young elves in the fighting. The few surviving hobgoblins flee to the sanctuary of the Giantspire Mountains.
-1335 The moon elves of Larlotha begin a Retreat to Cormanthyr with the marriage of their ruler and queen Ildranna “Starflowers” to Coronal Miirphys of that realm. Within fifty winters only small pockets of elves reside within the Gray Forest.
75 Year of Clinging Death
Several clans of moon elves from Rilithar in the Sword Coast North, arrive in the Gray Forest via a portal and establish the realm of Vedrymmell. They ally with the fugitive Crown Prince Baranth of Impiltur who in turn recognises their sovereignty over the woodlands.
77 Year of the Quivering Mountains
With the aid of the moon elves of Vedrymmell, Crown Prince Baranth defeats the treasonous Morlorn, “the Usurper King”, at the Battle of Ilithra’s Smile and is crowned king of Impiltur. The Obarskyrs are exiled from the realm.
As for the "end" of Vedrymmell as an elven realm, I haven't quite worked that out. That end has something to do with a lack of High Magic (see the High Magic chapter in the "Cormanthyr" accessory for an undetailed lore hook) and my feeling is that by 350 DR or so whatever disaster it is that brings this realm down, has occurred leaving a few small clans still resident there but no coherent elven realm.
-- George Krashos
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| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 19:34:30
Really not much - it just states what previous sources have - that Sulasspryn mining ran into Drow, which they defeated, and the Drow 'got even' by tunneling beneath parts of the city and caving it in.
I believed earlier sources said the entire city was plunged into the Underdark (IIRC), so all this did was refine that a bit. It appears that only the seat of government (palace or some-such) got tumbled all the way down - the rest were just sunk to various depths, most not being more the 20-50 feet down or so (enough to destroy the city, because the damage was fairly universal, but also not severe enough to leave nothing behind, which is how previous lore made it appear).
The ruins are quite extensive, and there are MANY Gargoyles and a Beholder (which controls most of them), and also many Undead, which are not controlled by the beholder (so you get different threats day & night). At least some of the Undead are controlled by a 'Lich King' from afar (somewhere in Thar, IIRC).
So what Rich has done is take the basics of the idea, and turned it into a monster-filled (ie, USABLE) ruin.
The only caveat I would have to apply to all of that (going back to the original lore, not just Rich Baker's) is that the Drow community must have been rather small and weak for humans to have so easily overpowered it from a relatively insignificant settlement (although it was apparently a city, and not just a town as I believe it formerly was made-out to be). The Drow handled their enemies in a sneaky fashion they normally only reserve for other Drow - ordinarily Drow tend to be much more 'up-front' in their confrontations with other races. This may have just been a matter of intelligence, though, then an actual weakness - it could be they are fighting wars on several fronts, giving the rather large number of Orcs in the Galenas and also a Dwarven Kingdom. They may have simply felt Sulasspryn was not worth the expenditure of additional resources.
Ergo, for a purely HB PoV, I would say that the Sulassprynites encountered a small party of Drow, who were also mining in the same area, and beat those, and only thought they had beaten 'The Drow'. When word got back to the main settlement (from the Drow 'mining operation'), that's when they decided to just cave the city in, rather then go to war (which, as I have said, is not their normal M.O.) |
| coach |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 19:07:33
"There is a little bit about the Galena Drow in Corsair, by Rich Baker. Not much - just some detail as to what they did to Sulasspryn" quote by Markus
if anyone can provide me this info it would be much appreciated, i am in the midst of a lifetime boycott of WotC anything post 3.5 and i think this trilogy is past that timeframe |
| Razz |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 18:11:50
Throughout all time periods, in fact, because I am just concerned with what sorts of ancient ruins one would find in the Cold Lands region if they were a group of historians/treasure hunters/archaeologists.
In other words, I'm not going to have the PCs find ancient elf ruins there if there was no word of elves living in those regions for a long period of time. Or I wouldn't put in, say, an ancient temple to a draconic deity if historically there were no dragons in the region to blatantly create a temple to one of the dragon deities in an area ruled by giants, for example (which is true anyway, most likely). |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 15:36:12
I can't find anything that links the Gur of the Western Heartlands with Netheril. "Races of Faerûn" makes it pretty clear that they left their ancient homeland in the east after the Great Conflagration - which sets the date at c. -150 DR.
As for what existed in the Coldlands before the creation of the Great Glacier, the OP might need to be a bit more specific as that period stretches from c. -25,000 DR to -2,550 DR.
I've always thought that in the Bloodstone Lands region, giants remained a significant presence, even after Ostoria fell as a kingdom - oh, and just for the record, I put no historical value on the 'historical' write-up provided by the "Giantcraft" accessory.
I've always thought that evil giants enslaved the local human tribes while good giants (especially storm giants) created small enclaves of more civilised humans who dwelt under their protection. That links in with my thoughts on the unnamed, powerful human kingdom that built the Citadel of the Raven. I've always thought that they were a human tribe or tribes that were protected and civilised by storm giants as another weapon in their fight against the evil dragons.
Of course, there were always groups of free, nomadic humans - those that likely had access to horses and could roam large areas, evading creatures or areas of danger. I'm sure that the Bloodstone Lands contained several of these, and that they were the parent human groupings that became in time the Nars.
GHotR provides my take on the elven presence in the region, and despite the lack of detail, there were dwarves there also.
This is a pretty big topic, so it might be useful to truncate the field of enquiry by date or racial grouping, to enable a more detailed response.
-- George Krashos
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| Quale |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 22:17:39
Shining South (3e), Serpent Kingdoms ? don't know
I first heard it [url"=http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14239"]here[/url] |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 22:02:17
(OT - which sources have "Indian" flavour in the Shaar?) |
| Quale |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 15:03:13
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It has more to do with my chart of racial migrations then just the coincidence of similar names. Also not that Vassa & Damara did not exist in Ed's Realms, ergo Narfell would have wrapped around and over the Moonsea region somewhat (below the glacier).
I am currently looking for the source that mentions the western Gur - its in a fairly early one, IIRC. Maybe George knows (he's never contradicted that point whenever I made it). The 'capitol' of Seventon was Gers, according to The Winds of Netheril, but that's not the same thing.
There's a Gur character in the King Pinch novel, that's in Ankhapur. The Shaar has some Indian flavor. Maybe their history is with the Durpari and Imaskar, then to Rashemen. Also the Rengarth barbarians were autonomous from the Netherese, not sure if they have the same origin.
But I've made my own migrations chart when I needed to introduce races from Golarion, so canon doesn't matter anymore. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 00:27:18
I need some time to provide a few detailed responses. That'll have to wait till the weekend.
-- George Krashos
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| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 22:56:35
There is a little bit about the Galena Drow in Corsair, by Rich Baker. Not much - just some detail as to what they did to Sulasspryn.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
You said this before, source?
And I didn't answer you the last time I think you asked. 
I don't know.... 
When I was doing all my racial research on the Realms I came across the fact (somewhere) that the Netherease were in fact descendants of barbarians (Gur) that settled Seventon. I wrote that bit down in my notes... unfortunately back then I did not write down sources when I found stuff like that. 
There is no canonical source linking the Gur of the Taan with the Gur that settled around the Narrow Sea - that was my own conjecture. Considering that two other groups related to the Netherease - The Ride {Eraka} and Tunlander Barbarians {Mir} - were Horseman, and that most of the Caucasian peoples of the northern wastes (Raumavari) were as well (Note the Narfelli), it stands to reason that as the oriental-type peoples of kara-Tur migrated into the Taan region, the ancient Raumvari peoples were displaced, many of whom migrated West (like the Rashemi peoples of Rashemen and Thay).
It has more to do with my chart of racial migrations then just the coincidence of similar names. Also not that Vassa & Damara did not exist in Ed's Realms, ergo Narfell would have wrapped around and over the Moonsea region somewhat (below the glacier).
I am currently looking for the source that mentions the western Gur - its in a fairly early one, IIRC. Maybe George knows (he's never contradicted that point whenever I made it). The 'capitol' of Seventon was Gers, according to The Winds of Netheril, but that's not the same thing. |
| coach |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 21:17:15
@razz:
yes the ancient dwarves are from the Kingdom of Dareth ... they occupied the mountain ranges that are in Sossal and their main Fortress was on Mount Sundabar known for their metalworks and constant wars with the white dragons in that area ... the current dwarves are the Hillsafar clan that came from the Sarphil(sp?) dwarves south of the Moonsea
other ancient entities include Hoarfaem, a white dragon kingdom that warred with the Dareth dwarves and were probably the cause of their demise
the dragons of Hoarfaem then warred with the avariel who have also built their aerie on Mt Sundabar
as far as Underdark you have a cult of the dragon cell of duergar led by a deep dragon named Plunge (but it's not ancient kingdom, just posting to show the evidence of underdark activity)
the drow were located in V'Eldrinnssharr which is listed as being below the Vaasa/galena Mts area
Deepearth is an underdark area made mention of from FR9 and H1-H4 sourcebooks/modules
Ostoria had a capital called Voninheim that was buried by the Glacier but I don't want to create a new discussion on that as there was a long thread on this not over a month or two ago
will post more in a bit
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 11:25:37
There are of course all sorts of divine/planar associations which involve particular pantheons and powers having certain affinities toward/against giants, or some special role of giants in planar/primordial/prophetic events of the cosmos. After all, giants are just little titans, and titans are just little gods.
Your Promethean Giants brew seems interesting, it seems to better explain cyclopes and the lot.
I do recall somewhere mentioning that giants have some association with Feywild or Elemental Earth or somesuch. If the latter then giant/genie elemental interaction seems less unlikely. I don't dislike it, exactly, because the "doesn't fit" strangeness is actually pretty intriguing in this particular instance.
I'll add Giantcraft to my lore-shopping list, it seems like an interesting read. |
| Quale |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 11:12:30
According to Giantcraft: '' Alchemists have discovered profound differences between the anatomies of giants and humans. For the most part, giants boast a heavier bone structure, boosting overall resilience but decreasing speed and cranial capacity. Some undertakers claim that giants possess a bizarre vestigial organ in their abdomens. Speculation on the purpose of this organ ranges from the mundane (it is somehow responsible for the giants great height) to the supernatural (the organ acts as a cage for Annam's spirit, allowing him to possess any of his progeny).''
I've expanded that for my games, combining the Promethean story and the race of destiny theme. With alchemy and similar secret lore humans can learn to manipulate the four elements that consist them and grow towards perfection, the finest form being a titan. Gods are threatened with this lore and there are many curses on this path.
As for the giants and genies, I don't like it cause it mixed Arabic and Norse mythology, there are plenty of other elemental spirits to take that role, Satrap of the Great Glacier? what's next the Pope of Sossal. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 10:07:13
On to giants for a moment. Comparing templates for (Medium-sized) Giants and Humanoids shows that Giants are a little bit stronger and tougher, presumably a little wider of girth and shoulder, but otherwise very much the same thing.
What is the distinction? |
| Quale |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:57:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Citadel of the Raven culture was TRULY Ancient (around -18,000DR) - as in 'pre-sundering'. I am tentatively considering attributing it to Ice Spire Ogres (Ogres seem to have dominated in lower Ostoria, and survived much longer after that realm fell). Unfortunately, I believe that in official sources it was said to have been built by humans, so it may have been built by my theoretical 'Pozi culture' on the pre-Sundered proto-continent, and then later inhabited by Ogres of Ostoria (since true giants wouldn't have fit).
yes, humans, I like it to be that polar civilization, except in my world humans can transform into giants, ogres are ''rednecks'' of that society
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Gur would have had to have migrated through that area as well, before the founding of Seventon.
You said this before, source?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Personally, I think the Citadel of the Raven was the place the Kingkiller Star ritual was performed
I think that was the avariel fortress in the Rogue Dragons trilogy, somewhere in the Great Glacier |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 06:55:45
Its not mine - I only did that estimate on the size of the glacier (the red print and blued-region) on the smaller map I posted first.
The rest of the map was a book - The Forgotten Realms Atlas, by the late Karen Wynn Fonstad - one of THE finest fantasy cartographers around. She also did one for Dragonlance (which I wish I had purchased).
I'm also not the guy who pasted them all together - I would never take my own book apart to do so (although I have though about it). That was done quite some time ago by 'an anonymous internet person' (and I suppose is technically illegal, although that copy on Angelfire has been there forever).
That's the map I am working off of, BTW, for my Nentir Vale conversion, and although I am certainly no Mrs. Fonstad, I have to say I'm very pleased thus-far with the results. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 02:37:29
Your full map is astounding, Markus - and takes a very long time to load. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 01:56:15
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Also, that link appears to be dead.
Did you mean the link to This Article? That's the portals one that discusses the giant survivor-state and the Djen.
It makes sense that they cooperate - they are both elemental beings at heart.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Where did you find that beautiful map?
I made that (the red and the blued-out region) from the Fonstad Map.
Someone pasted together all the individual maps from the FRA years ago - you can see the full map HERE. |
| Razz |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 00:28:12
Fascinating information! This is inspiring some good places for ancient sites in my campaign's Cold Lands. Personally, I'm trying to stick as close to lore as possible, and obviously winging what's blank. Good stuff, everyone! :D
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 22:54:44
Thanx Knight! (Disregard my last two above links; they are indexed here) |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 22:32:34
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20020626z
Try this. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 20:03:28
The link is broken, and I couldn't find a cached/archived copy (since I don't know the title or any search keywords). I did find this, this, this, this, and many references to Frostburn (whatever that is). |
| Mr_Miscellany |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 19:36:38
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Also, the giants ruled in close collaboration with a number of genies, so their ruins still dot the landscape as well.
This is cool! I didn’t know the giants and genies cooperated like this. The idea is very appealing to the DM in me.
Also, that link appears to be dead.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 19:23:30
Tyranthraxus was imprisoned in the pool of radiance until 1340DR (?). There's a lot of "old" references mentioning Tyranthraxus' activity (in a sometimes circumlocutive manner), mostly noted in lore written by/for the Church of Bane. So T was probably active in the area during the formative days of Bane's church (or at least during the early days of the church's influence within this region). Doesn't say much about the native population other than T using them as members of his army of darkness du jour.quote:
Markustay
Estimated ice Coverage of about 300-500 years ago
Where did you find that beautiful map? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 17:21:38
The Citadel of the Raven culture was TRULY Ancient (around -18,000DR) - as in 'pre-sundering'. I am tentatively considering attributing it to Ice Spire Ogres (Ogres seem to have dominated in lower Ostoria, and survived much longer after that realm fell). Unfortunately, I believe that in official sources it was said to have been built by humans, so it may have been built by my theoretical 'Pozi culture' on the pre-Sundered proto-continent, and then later inhabited by Ogres of Ostoria (since true giants wouldn't have fit).
I still haven't gotten my head fully wrapped around that entire region yet. The Gur would have had to have migrated through that area as well, before the founding of Seventon. We also have that article on Ironfang Keep, which I believe is now attributed to giants, originally. You'll also note the High Ice did not exist at the time of Netheril (at least not that far south), which means the Netherease had to have some means of warming the air that far north (else why did it 'revert' to ice after they were gone?) It may have been a natural thing, though - the warm currents of the Narrow sea may have kept the entire region habitable (and considering the sea itself was moved in primordial times, it stands to reason there would be a great deal of vulcanism beneath the sea bed, allowing for large Thermal vents to keep the waters - and therefor the air - warm).
Personally, I think the Citadel of the Raven was the place the Kingkiller Star ritual was performed (and elves and humans were both involved in those events, although it was the Elves that actually performed the magic). Or it actually may have been in or near the lands controlled by Orchtrien (the dragon featured in that story in Realms of the Elves) - his lands were said to be NE of the High Forest, which was much greater in size back then (probably right up to the shores of the Narrow sea). It may have even been his capitol, Dawnfire, which would have been rebuilt several times over by whomever controlled it (it was said to be an immense city-sized castle... just like the Citadel of the Raven).
Anyway, getting back to the Cold lands - going by some of Ed's earliest Realms descriptions, I think the great Glacier and the glacier above Anauroch were one and the same, and some of the distortion caused by all the shoe-horning resulted in an unrealistic situation in regards to the (High) Ice. If you look at this Fonstad Map, which was the closest any official map ever came to Ed's realms (according to him, in his thread), parts of the Great Glacier is supposed to be SOUTH of the High Forest! Icewind Dale is shown to be at the same latitude as northern Sossal! You'll also note the desert on that map doesn't contain a glacier of it's own. Pelvuria was magically created, and should sit well below the normal ice-line in the FAR north. If anything, when Vassa and Damara were added to the realms, a great chunk of the Great Glacier should have be removed to allow for Vassa... but it wasn't (which means that officially, the Glacier was even further south until just a few centuries ago). On newer FR maps, it also loses its round shape when you add the lands of Vassa in (which it should have, since it was projected outward from a magical source) - none of that was taken into consideration.
Now that I'm studying it, give me a little bit...
Estimated ice Coverage of about 300-500 years ago
Note that the mountain range central to the glacier appears crater-like, but elongated (as if an immensely powerful humanoid form was cast down to earth there).  |
| Quale |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 14:31:10
Additionally in Vaasa there should be some remains of the dragon realm of Tharkrixghontix, and of the Citadel of the Raven builders' culture |
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