| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| HelldoG |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 23:50:30
Like in the title.
And BTW: Is that bit about Lurue being the true/primary magic diety just an trivia and non-canon or is there some truth in it? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zireael |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 10:55:20
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Okay, I'm confused now. Shar and Lolth are the same? Where was that? I've not read any post/4th ed books, not even novels, so I haven't run across that. Could someone clarify?
Umm... wasn't it mentioned in 3e too? Don't recall the book though.
And there was an even better heresy mentioned in Power of Faerun - one that venerates Shar and Selune at the same time! Isn't it grand? |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 02:40:02
Their not. It's a heresy. Some people believe it. But it's not true. Or is it... |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 02:16:28
Okay, I'm confused now. Shar and Lolth are the same? Where was that? I've not read any post/4th ed books, not even novels, so I haven't run across that. Could someone clarify? |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 00:19:08
Just realized that Brian James did bring back Lurue in 4e as an archfey in his Sarifal Article here:
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/2009june
Hmmm... While I think she does work fine as an archfey (it certainly fits her) I am not sure if that can be harmonized with the theory that she is an aspect/fragment of Mystryl.
I guess if I were going to try to make the Mystryl theory work with established lore, I would assume she is only an archfey at present. Maybe when the human Mystryl died, the Lurue aspect died as well and invested her own essence in a (mortal) unicorn. Alternatively, this could have happened at the time of the Spellplague. That unicorn could have escaped to the Feywild during the Spellplague and, though she lost her god status, she may have risen to archfey status in the intervening century. Or something along those lines.
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 08:28:22
I like that take Wooly as it folds neatly with various heretical thoughts I have regarding the gods. Gods have many, many faces in my Realms but yet aren't quite as different as they think they are.
-- George Krashos
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| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 07:31:20
Well, we are basically saying the same thing - that Lurue and Mystra are really two sides of the same coin. There actually was no 'first', if both are aspects if the Weave. All of that would just be the dogma of the religion/cult/heresy involved (and we fall back on the Ed-ism of "the truth of the gods is unknowable").
In essence, this bit actually becomes easier to swallow in the wake of the '4e revelations' about the gods. Having one more pair revealed to be 'the same' - a pair that always had some sort of connection anyway - is no big deal these days. It paved the way for any other 'secrets' to be uncovered (in other words, making it less of a 'retcon', and more along the lines of 'new lore').
As long as we are playing with the Unicorn, it would also be fun to work-in Earth-Mother's other two children as aspects of proto-gods (deities that existed before human worship) - I'm nowhere near any sources ATM, but I remember one was Leviathan, IIRC.
Then again, Leviathan is supposedly Tiamet, according to some (non-D&D) sources.
Still, if Lurue = magic, then we could probably come-up with 3 'primal forces' represented by the Earth Mother's children - Forces required for a world to sustain life.
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| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 05:43:08
My take is that Mystryl and Lurue were fragments of the same goddess of magic. Lurue was the fragment as worshiped in the Fey pantheon (Fey creator race). While Mystryl was the human conception of her. Originally they may have just been two faces of the same goddess, each an alias, or an avatar. But eventually they split off from each other into separate entities.
According to the rules regarding separate pantheons/geographic spheres of influence, Lurue and Mystryl could both be the goddess of magic, and could have been equally powerful, because their spheres of influence did not overlap. If anything, Lurue was probably more powerful than her Mystryl fragment during the time that the Fey were ascendant, back when humans were very primitive.
This is reflected in the name for Mystryl's divine dominion: Dweomertor. A tor is a rocky hill. It probably started out as nothing more than that. A rocky hill, probably surmounted by a ring of standing stones. It started as a tiny, neolithic plot of territory, suitable to a primitive human goddess of magic. Only much later did Dweomertor grow into the magic metropolis that came to be known as Dweomerheart, the Heart of the Weave.
As Mystryl grew in power with the spread and rise of humans as a power, so did Lurue diminish as the Fey retreated to Faerie and the Leshay were largely eradicated in a magical catastrophe.
Lurue was still venerated in the sylvan areas of Faerûn, especially in the North, where what was left of the Fey pantheon were venerated by humans and Lurue became incorporated into the human pantheon of the North.
As the Northern pantheon began to merge with the Talfiric pantheon and later with the greater Faerûnian pantheon, following the Chondathan diaspora, Lurue and Mystryl (or Mystra, depending on the chronology) were now part of the same pantheonic sphere.
According to the rules established by Ao, no two gods may hold the same portfolio within the same pantheon. Mystryl and Lurue had come into conflict, and so Lurue relinquished any remaining power she had over magic and the weave and became (or remained) patron of magical beasts.
While I suppose that in the post-Spellplague era, Lurue could conceivably reclaim her former portfolio and reestablish herself as the goddess of magic, the only problems with that, as I see it, is that 1) people seem to have forgotten that she ever was the goddess of magic. I think there would have to be some sort of critical mass of belief, a heresy (if you will) that grows into common knowledge in order for Lurue to claim the portfolio as her own. 2) Also, since the Weave was destroyed, she may not be able to claim that as a portfolio, not sure the Weave can ever be reconstituted as it was, but maybe the portfolio of "magic" is up for grabs. 3) Lastly, I'm not sure Lurue is even still around... I can't find a mention of her in 4e lore (unless I missed it). It is possible that, even having given up her portfolio to Mystryl, she still had some sort of powerful connection to the Weave that may well have destroyed her along with the Weave.
Of course, I could see her escaping to the Feywild to avoid the effects of the Spellplague; or to nurse her wounds and recover after the fact; or even as a guardian of the Feywild to help hold that plane together or minimize the ravages that the Spellplague would have effected upon Faerie. Maybe Lurue will return someday in a more powerful incarnation as a renewed version of the goddess of magic that she used to be.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 01:08:06
How about taking Markus's idea in a slightly different direction? Mystryl was formed, per canon -- but was originally a unicorn. She focused on more than just magic, including -- among other things -- intelligent animals. As waves of mortals arrived in the Realms and began worshipping her, magic became her dominant focus. As such, she took on more of a mortal seeming (in other words, her worshippers saw her as being human or demihuman, not unicorn, so she shifted to match their expectations).
Not wanting to hang intelligent animals out to dry -- and as a way of limiting her power, which we know Mystra voluntarily did -- she spun off her original, unicorn aspect into a new deity: Lurue the Unicorn.
That only bends canon lore, which is how I prefer to play.  |
| HelldoG |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 21:09:08
@ Zireael
Yes, it's me, Helldog from Polter Forum. :D You didn't knew it was me?
@ Markustay
Very, very, VERY interesting. Do you have any ideas HOW could followers of Lurue manage to make their diety the true magic diety? And i mean in a peaceful manner, without war and dirty tricks. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 18:29:02
'If' I were to 'fix' the Realms (which may be happening right now, we can only hope), I would say that Lurue was the original embodiment of the weave, but her non-human (inhuman?) nature became counter-productive after a time. in other words, while the elves who worshipped Corellon in this regard may have respected Lurue (and paid her lip-service) upon their initial arrival, humans (and others) may have not been so open towards her.
Ergo, she merged a part of her divine essence with a mortal, who became the first Mystryl (there probably have been several we don't know about), so as to better mesh her magic-wielding aspect with the mortals who would be using that portion of her portfolio.
So Lurue (who's other name could be Mystryl, to make the creation-story of Toril still work), periodically 'upgrades' her 'sofware' (her magic-using aspect). The Lurue we know from canon is the original, unblemished (pure) version of the weave's sentience... a 'template', if you will.
Everything after - the Mytryl and Mystras we know, and probably a few we don't - have all been a separate aspect of the original goddess that had been broken-off the original and merged with mortals, so as to 'keep up with the times'. In that way, every time the weave collapses (or comes close), she is like the backup-drive so that the Weave can be re-booted, after adding yet-another 'Mystra (mortal) patch'.
So while Mystra represents the human Weave-using aspect of Toril's 'magical web', Lurue represents the actual weave itself, and hence her less-then-human (or 'more-then') representation in the form of a Unicorn (which traditionally represents 'all things magical').
Not canon, with a lot of Ed-enhanced conjecture, but what that does is not only explain the subtle difference between the two, but also marries Ed's original to the canon version, and allows her eventual return.
Because she IS coming back, you know, in one form or another. I'd bet my last dollar on that one. And if I'm wrong, I just gave yet-another way for folks to bring her back into their Realms, regardless.
Hmmmm... Mystryl... Mystra... Mortal... there's definitely some linguistic possibilities there I would use. If Lurue was commanded to split herself, or even if she chose to, there should be a way of working all that in to the original myths. 'The Lurue' could be some deific term for magic itself, and Mystryl could have been applied just to her Weave-using aspect (not sure where'd they get a mortal back then, though - perhaps from another world?)
This would also help to explain Jergal - earlier aspects of Gods need to be 'upgraded' to work with an ever-evolving world, but some deities may chose to voluntarily surrender their portfolios, rather then become merged with some Mortal.
So in this way, we get Inhuman aspects of forces like Magic and Death (opposites?), but they need to work or merge with mortals in order to be accepted and receive mana through worship.
A bit convoluted, but lore-patching sometimes requires a juggling act.
Edit: I almost forgot! This whole tangent was meant to apply to the OP's question. This would definitely be considered a 'heresy' by both Mystra's and Lurue's churches, even if it did prove to be true (as the Lathander/Amaunator one did). This would be similar to the heresy involving Shar and Lolth - that the two are actually two aspects of one. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 10:42:58
I don't know about Lurue heresies, but in 4e she got upped a lot, if I remember correctly.
And I love that part about putting Lurue in Mystra's place...
BTW HelldoG, are you Polish or is your nick just a coincidence?
EDIT: I just got the message in pig latin and it makes me want to roll on the floor with laughter. Good one!
No, I do not know of any. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 09:34:11
Hey, I am an American!
Does 'pig latin' count as another language?
So any other heresies? Aybemay anfay ademay eresieshay?
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| HelldoG |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 02:07:40
If the language barrier allows, then I wouldn't mind to post them, Sage. :) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 02:04:34
Interesting.
If you ever plan to detail such events, I wouldn't mind an opportunity to read about them. |
| HelldoG |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 01:57:45
In my Realms it's 1387 but the Sellplague didn't hit (yet :P). So I could use that plot to off Mystra and put Lurue in her place. That would be wonderful.
Even better, I would somehow make my players to do the dirty job. :) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 01:46:32
In terms of the official Realms, I wouldn't say it's very likely. There's simply been too much time and development focused on the position of the Goddess of Magic in the published Realmslore, that it would be somewhat difficult for designers to enact such a plan. Especially now, given the impact and fallout of the Spellplague.
If you can find a way to work it into your Realms though, I say have at it!  |
| HelldoG |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 01:40:21
NICE! So it's not far from impossible that Lurue could "take back" her rightful place as the Godess of Magic? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 01:25:39
So long as it came from Ed's campaign, then it's canon. And since it really hasn't been denied in published Realmslore, it's still largely valid for the official Realms also.
"Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave." -- so, she occupied a place similar to that of Mystryl, Mystra I, and II. |
| HelldoG |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 01:16:06
Yeah, that bit I was mentioning. That is canon? Not "only-in-Ed's-campaign-and-realms"?
I mean: Lurue WAS the diety of magic before Mystryl/Mystra or she was THE MAGIC? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 00:56:56
quote:
Originally posted by HelldoG
And BTW: Is that bit about Lurue being the true/primary magic diety just an trivia and non-canon or is there some truth in it?
It's directly from Ed.
quote:
Well met again, all. Your Lady Hooded One returns (thank you for that naming, Wooly Rupert!), with Ed’s latest:
Hi, Wooly Rupert. Well, now: Nobanion and Lurue are, of course, the Lion and the Unicorn of British nursery rhyme fame (with all the meanings that go with that, too; they are among other things the supporters of the royal coat of arms for that country, and in many other coats of arms associated with England).
Yet they’re also MUCH more than that. For me, I have to be able to imagine a deity with some awe, and I often do it by attaching to them emotions evoked by other fiction. So, the Lion is also Aslan the Lion in The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis (Christian allegorical fantasy classics soon to appear in a Disney movie that * might * turn out to be okay, and already on film in any number of BBC adaptations down the years, some of them superb). The Narnia books are hated by some, loved by others, but chock-full of little heart-wrenching scenes regardless, and are among the top-selling English-language fiction books of all time.
I didn’t mean my lion-god to BE Aslan, of course; as you saw in that DRAGON article, a lot of names were placeholders at the time, waiting for Mr. Gygax to round out the “official” (Greyhawk) pantheon. Aslan has that name because he has evoke that “awe” for me. The name “Aslan” is Indian in origin (India, not native North American), and the lion is of course a Christian symbol for ‘the King’ from way back, hence its lavish use in royal heraldry.
So “Aslan” went away the moment TSR decided to publish the Realms (mustn’t lift central characters from other authors, even in homage, though I did unwittingly [i.e. I’d forgotten] sneak one direct homage into the Realms [Aglarond, for Tolkien], and beat another well-known fantasy author to a name by coincidence, coining the name “Ashaba” for the river that runs through Shadowdale years before David Eddings used it in his Malloreon books).
Lurue is my own invented name, but it started almost as the deity’s ‘private’ name, with “Silverymoon” being her popular one (and, yes, the city of the same name was originally envisaged as the root and center of her faith). Not only is Lurue the Unicorn of “the Lion and the Unicorn,” she’s also the mysterious, eponymous unicorn from the children’s book THE LITTLE WHITE HORSE by Elizabeth Goudge, AND she’s also meant to evoke the Unicorn of Amber, in Roger Zelazny’s classic Amber books (where the Unicorn inspires awe even among the jaded royal family who use her as their badge). She was always meant to be mysterious, and there’s very little about her that didn’t go into POWERS & PANTHEONS that doesn’t now contradict the published Realms.
Originally, Lurue WAS magic—before Julia Martin added the name “Weave” to my GenCon explanations of ‘the great web of magic that’s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,’ Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. As such, she could teleport without error or limit, through all barriers and spells, was immune to all known magical [and psionic] effects, could raise dead, heal, regenerate and restore with the touch of her horn—and also spew silver fire from it—and so on. Her very proximity dispels illusions and curses, purifies and neutralizes poisons and taints, and purges diseases. And on and on. [To the usual chorus of “Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!” I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she’s also whimsical. We can’t understand why she does what she does, so she can’t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be.] She tended to be as curious as a newborn babe, utterly fearless, and kind to injured creatures. And yes, I tucked in the “patron of virgins, but can also make barren wombs bear” folklore, too. Only virgins could ride her, and those who did got that silver hair the Chosen who are Mystra’s daughters all share, and ‘wild talent’ innate magical abilities, and were marked for special tasks and achievements all their lives.
The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now.
Now, as for the Knights of the Unicorn, I do have more, but dare not pass it on right now for fear of trampling on something another creative person is already working on, in the Realms. That’s one rule I’m going to be very careful not to break, no matter how much we all want to delve into lore and secrets of the Realms. So: sorry, and I hope you’ll understand.
So saith Ed. Thy Hooded One can add this much: we Knights met Lurue once, in the High Forest, on the banks of the Unicorn Run. She was dancing on her hind legs on empty air, about forty feet off the ground, in full silvery moonlight -- and we all grovelled. She LOOKED into our eyes, each of us -- and Ed had written out long, detailed notes for each of us for the dream-visions we received then. When we awakened, we were all reinvigorated, healed of all hurts, had maximum charges in all of our magic items, and so on. The one virgin among us (no, I’m not going to name her, but it wasn’t my character, all you guessers) had been touched by Lurue’s horn, and her eyes were two flames of silver fire. Also, her hair had gone silver and moved constantly by itself, as if waves of wind were passing through it. She gained feather fall and water walk innate abilities on the spot, and ironguard as long as the silver fire was in her. It remained with her as we travelled, until we had to fight a certain archdevil in Myth Drannor.
In that encounter, we were overwhelmed by devils and were going down, just being buried in numbers. The archdevil saw the silver fire and went straight for the particular Knight, and after they’d started to fight and the character was being badly mauled, the player (thank whatever gods there be) REMEMBERED Ed’s notes of her dream-vision, and what she had to do. She fled onto the altar beside the devil (that was also a gate into the Nine Hells), and when the archdevil attacked her there, she embraced it and let it slay her.
And her silver fire went BLAM and took out altar, gate, archdevil, and all the other devils within a MILE, leaving all of us Knights lying dazed, unscathed, and alive . . . except she who’d sacrificed herself. She was gone forever.
And at that moment, far away in Shadowdale, Storm Silverhand was helping a farm wife give birth to her first child, a girl—and it came out stillborn. Storm raised the tiny body to make absolutely sure before she wrapped it and turned to comfort the mother . . . and its eyes opened, and they were silver and knowing, and the mind of our lost Knight was in the now-living child and wondering how by Lurue to tell Storm who she was.
Hmm. I’m crying again, just remembering it.
Another of Ed’s beautiful little moments, that will make me treasure our Realmsplay forever.
Ladies and gentlesirs, I give you: the Realms!
The Hooded One
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