| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lady Morbannaon |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 15:58:29
I know its been an age since I posted here last and I really should change that. So....
I've been running some sessions within Thay and the question on how the people of Thay particularly Kossuth followers would deal with werewolves has come up. Would they avoid/kill them or happily get turned to advance their powers?
I know at the end of the day its probably a personal preference sort of thing but overall how is lycanthropy seen in Thay and by Kossuth followers? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 08:57:56
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The ruling class in Thay are proud of their 'Mulan blood' - I can see Woodwwad's point. They seem to have a bit of the 'racial supremacist' attitude going on there. taking that a step further, any dilution of that blood could indeed be frowned upon.
However, the Raumvari commoners would probably think its a good thing - they have quite a few ties to nature and animal spirits. I can see a group of rebel-weres operating out of Thay. I believe a Lythari appeared in Rashemen in the Liriel trilogy, and a major group of them live just over the mountains in the Taan. True, not quite the same thing, but it is a precedent for Shapeshifters in the region, and of them being on good terms with people of Raumvari descent.
Every ruling class, no matter if its good, neutral, or evil, creates a counter-culture that's bent on either eradicating, neutralizing, or being a thorn in the established ruling class' side.
And then when you figure that one of Thay's main sources of thier prosperity is their participation in the slave trade, then a counterculture of werewolves operating within Thay becomes that much more a plausible scenario. Especially upon learning lore of their high magic resistance and regeneration coming among the greater wolfweres (2e).
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
So a wise and knowledgeable power-hungry person in Thay would think well of a highly developed werewolf, both as an asset and threat, and may think of a 'regular' werewolf or other lycanthrope as a challenge in a non-magic fight.
This.
As a DM, I'd ask myself what followers of Kossuth might hope to gain from the change into a Werewolf. About the only thing I can think of is that since followers of Kossuth are prone to extreme acts as proof of their devotion, maybe a high priest would command those of lower rank (or "terrace") to become infected on purpose.
Those "with pure faith in Kossuth" will find their faith can literally burn the affliction of lycanthropy out of them. Those that don't will of course be put down.
On average I'd think a typical Thayan and a typical follower of Kossuth would both see a werewolf (that is, one not already owned or controlled by someone else) as a menace to be eradicated.
Once again, I wasn't at all thinking about a werewolf among the established powers within Thay. I was thinking of a werewolf or werewolf pack seeking to be against those leading that country. 
When I wrote "So a wise and knowledgeable power-hungry person in Thay would think well of a highly developed werewolf, both as an asset and threat," yes I was referring to an established powerful person in Thay, but thinking in terms of how this established person may seek to profit from the werewolf. I didn't mean respecting the werewolf.
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| Mr_Miscellany |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 23:29:44
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
So a wise and knowledgeable power-hungry person in Thay would think well of a highly developed werewolf, both as an asset and threat, and may think of a 'regular' werewolf or other lycanthrope as a challenge in a non-magic fight.
This.
As a DM, I'd ask myself what followers of Kossuth might hope to gain from the change into a Werewolf. About the only thing I can think of is that since followers of Kossuth are prone to extreme acts as proof of their devotion, maybe a high priest would command those of lower rank (or "terrace") to become infected on purpose.
Those "with pure faith in Kossuth" will find their faith can literally burn the affliction of lycanthropy out of them. Those that don't will of course be put down.
On average I'd think a typical Thayan and a typical follower of Kossuth would both see a werewolf (that is, one not already owned or controlled by someone else) as a menace to be eradicated.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 21:56:28
The ruling class in Thay are proud of their 'Mulan blood' - I can see Woodwwad's point. They seem to have a bit of the 'racial supremacist' attitude going on there. taking that a step further, any dilution of that blood could indeed be frowned upon.
However, the Raumvari commoners would probably think its a good thing - they have quite a few ties to nature and animal spirits. I can see a group of rebel-weres operating out of Thay. I believe a Lythari appeared in Rashemen in the Liriel trilogy, and a major group of them live just over the mountains in the Taan. True, not quite the same thing, but it is a precedent for Shapeshifters in the region, and of them being on good terms with people of Raumvari descent. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 20:22:03
quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
I really think becoming any kind of were would be looked down on in Thay.
Why? No where in any of the sources says one way or another at all. I'm curious as to why you think that? |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 19:24:25
I really think becoming any kind of were would be looked down on in Thay. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 01:49:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which leads me to yet another conundrum - if the vampire would require a 'soul to burn' for the lich-ritual, could he use someone else, as a sacrifice?
---some little spoilers----
It had never been done by any lich. But it sounds interesting and possible. In The Haunted Lands trilogy, Malark sacrificed a soul to activate the imprisoning magic of Thakorsil's Seat. Though the purpose of lichdom is obviously not similar to TS's, they have have a binary relation: TS suppresses all magical abilities of its prisoner, no matter how powerful; while lichdom brings back to existence all magical abilities of the dead wizard seeking it. And since the former requires a soul-sacrifice, it is possible that a dead vampire wizard can sacrifice another soul to achieve lichdom.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 01:14:38
But since both are forms of 'undeath', I have to wonder if the ritual to turn into a lich requires a 'lifeforce', and therefore is impossible without one (over-looking the purely fluff thing about vampires not having souls, which they shouldn't, if the mirror-issues are canon).
Which leads me to yet another conundrum - if the vampire would require a 'soul to burn' for the lich-ritual, could he use someone else, as a sacrifice?
Would the life-force trapped in the phylactory be someone else's then, but otherwise work the same way?
I think that is very novel/module worthy - a friend is found dead, murdered, and the group cannot bring him back by 'Raise dead'. The High-Priest who fails at the spell tells the characters that their friend's spirit is trapped somehow - that it hasn't left the mortal realms, but is being held captive by some evil force.
I should get paid to think this s*** up... 
As for the Kossuth Lycanthropes, I would make them a 'DM's special' - make them some sort of 'flaming wolf' usually found only on the elemental planes. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 14:17:47
Strictly speaking from the rules of a vampire turning into a lich?
Yes. Vampires are still humaniod (Augmenated) which is the only requirment for a lich.
However people will likely state that a vampire has no soul, and thus cannot make the phylactery, which is another requirement for lich. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 11:29:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I wonder, if a mage becomes a Vampire, either willingly or unwillingly, could he later turn himself into a lich? 
I guess it all depends if the Vampire still has a soul - or something to be captured by the phylactory. I personally like to believe they become 'souless', which is why their alignment changes (kinda like how it worked in the Pet cemetary movies).
Can someone answer this question? Human vampire lich Red Wizard would make for an awesome opponent...
quote:
I know at the end of the day its probably a personal preference sort of thing but overall how is lycanthropy seen in Thay and by Kossuth followers?
I guess the Red Wizards would see it as a powerful, albeit a bit dangerous, tool/road to power. The ordinary folks would react like bladeinAmn said, and Kossuth's clergy would be a bit disgusted with the lycanthropes, being impure etc. |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 06:57:07
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
However, vampires can be repelled by a holy symbol where as Lich just shrugs and makes a remark that he's older then that god. Same with mirrors. Lichs scoff at them. Vampires fear them.
Indeed!
Besides, have you seen a vampire wizard enslaving a lich? It's always the opposite. Szass Tam himself has scores of them.
Ding!Ding!Ding! Looks like we have a winner here!
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Morbannaon
I know its been an age since I posted here last and I really should change that. So....
I've been running some sessions within Thay and the question on how the people of Thay particularly Kossuth followers would deal with werewolves has come up. Would they avoid/kill them or happily get turned to advance their powers?
I know at the end of the day its probably a personal preference sort of thing but overall how is lycanthropy seen in Thay and by Kossuth followers?
I think the everyday person in Thay would think its another foul magic.
I think the power-hungry but dumb people in Thay would think that all lycanthropes are all fools that are cut from the same cloth and are meant to be unique fodder in an army, enclave etc.
I think the wise and knowledgable among the power-hungry in Thay would recognize that if a werewolf gets too powerful, they then develop high magic resistance, move w/lots of speed, and regenerate VERY quickly. And the said werewolf could then develop into the type of threat that could take out entire battalions of undead servicemen in the Thayan army, and suffer little damage from a Red Wizard's spells due to both high magic resistance and high regeneration ability.
So a wise and knowledgable power-hungry person in Thay would think well of a highly developed werewolf, both as an asset and threat, and may think of a 'regular' werewolf or other lycanthrope as a challenge in a non-magic fight. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 03:23:22
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
However, vampires can be repelled by a holy symbol where as Lich just shrugs and makes a remark that he's older then that god. Same with mirrors. Lichs scoff at them. Vampires fear them.
Indeed!
Besides, have you seen a vampire wizard enslaving a lich? It's always the opposite. Szass Tam himself has scores of them.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 03:15:15
Sooooo....
Would 'Shades of Strahd' be a window-treatment, or some Shadovar that work for the guy? |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 02:54:30
Vampire and wizard. Shades of Strahd. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 01:43:56
Invitations are really quite simple to engender - Watch True Blood, just last week. 
Besides, D&D worlds (most of them) have Underdarks - there's a whole 'nother world down there where most of your weaknesses can be ignored.
I wonder, if a mage becomes a Vampire, either willingly or unwillingly, could he later turn himself into a lich?
I guess it all depends if the Vampire still has a soul - or something to be captured by the phylactory. I personally like to believe they become 'souless', which is why their alignment changes (kinda like how it worked in the Pet cemetary movies).
And I don't care about the weaknesses if I had either choice in the RW - having the ability to charm the pants off pretty maidens as opposed to being a rotting bag O' bones wins-out every time.
Screw sunlight - just become powerful-enough magically to pull a Sojourner :P |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 00:08:11
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Nope. Read the vampire description in SRD and in Monster Manual. Page 253, under repelling a vampire, second paragraph after crossing running water.
hmmm indeed, thanks for the info. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 23:02:36
I hate it when it doesn't update that I post...
Nope. Read the vampire description in SRD and in Monster Manual. Page 253, under repelling a vampire, second paragraph after crossing running water. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 22:26:16
Nope. Read the vampire description in SRD and in Monster Manual. Page 253, under repelling a vampire, second paragraph after crossing running water. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 22:08:40
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
And the biggest, BIGGEST weakeness of a vampire?
Sure. They may have dozens of vampire elite super soldier guards that do all their commands. They want an enemy destroyed, they'll just send them or even do it themselves.
Oh wait. They're in a home. Sorry. Sucks to be them, as the people laugh and moon the vampires, safe from any ranged attacks. Vampires cannot enter a home without invitation.
I thought the home-restriction thing was Buffy-lore, not Realm's. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 21:22:43
Blood thirst is fluff. Nowhere in the rules does it state that it needs to drink blood. Same with the whole sleeping in the coffin during the day. Vampires can be active during day. It does need it's coffin to restore HP when it's taken to zero though.
Also: Garlic. Vampires can't stand garlic. So it's a pretty safe thing to cover yourself up with, wear necklaces of it, hats of it. A giant robe of it.
Turn resistance is the same for both lich and Vampire. However, vampires can be repelled by a holy symbol where as Lich just shrugs and makes a remark that he's older then that god. Same with mirrors. Lichs scoff at them. Vampires fear them.
And the biggest, BIGGEST weakeness of a vampire?
Sure. They may have dozens of vampire elite super soldier guards that do all their commands. They want an enemy destroyed, they'll just send them or even do it themselves.
Oh wait. They're in a home. Sorry. Sucks to be them, as the people laugh and moon the vampires, safe from any ranged attacks. Vampires cannot enter a home without invitation.
Those are fluff ether, those are offical DnD rules.
Lichs on the other hand, just march right on it and blow it up. |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 21:16:46
Vampires also have more vulnerabilities and needs than liches. Sure a wizard planning to spend eternity on his magely works likely will not leave his home/base/tower often, but they might have to or want to without the vulnerability to sunlight.
While a Thayan does have plenty of slaves to quench his blood thirst, the fact that he needs to is a weakness, the drive for blood is stronger than the drive for food so most sources depict. This is not like a human mortal with a need for food. Say one day the Red Wizard loses his power base, thus his access to slaves. He's going to have to attack people to get his fix. For a weakened vampire-wizard with enemies, vulnerabilities, and unwilling food sources, the negatives add up fast.
The lichform has none of those weaknesses, plus the usefulness (insurance policy) of the phylactery. I believe the divine turning power needed to affect liches is higher than for vampires as well. The only thing they lose is flesh, which to a guy willing to spend eternity indoors (or 'in-dungeon') working on spells isn't all that attached to. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 21:06:26
Manshoon's status clone was bit while in status, that's how it became a vampire.
For the main reason though? Vampires have alot of weakness that Lichs don't. Can't cross running water. Sunlight kills you. (Sure, there are spells that protect you, and a feat too. But both are temp). Can only rapidly heal in your coffin, and if that's destroyed? Bye. You can't even hide it in other planes of existances ether. Lich on the other hand, can hide their phylacteries pretty much anywhere.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 20:41:53
Still, as a human, I can see how becoming a vampire would be desirable (I would actually consider it myself), but a rotting skeleton? Makes no sense to me. I understand the phylactory thing, but some good planning could easily duplicate that - just create a slew of stasis clones.
Find a co-operative vampire (Its THAY, after all), and after that you can churn them out like a factory. have that vampire bite some slave, and then have the slave bite the prospective 'customer' - easy to accomplish, just keep him hungry and let him smell some blood. Then, after he has drained enough to initiate the change, have minions (or the first vamp who is a willing participant) destroy the slave-vamp. Simple - there is no 'Vampire master' to deal with.
All you need is that first vampire, and lots of slaves to throw-away. that sounds like Thay to me. Oh... and have that slave bite all the clones, too.... or maybe just some of them....
WAIT! 
Sorry for the derail, but I just thought of something important! Would being turned into a vampire activate all the clones? 
THAT would be a damn good reason why so many Arch-mages don't go that route - can't have clones if you choose undeath. But then... that would be true for Liches as well... Hmmmm.... good question for Ed...
Sorry again for the side-tangent.  |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 20:13:47
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*I could never for the life of me understand why so many Wizards choose to spend all that time and coin researching Lichdom, when all they need to do is get bitten by a vamp to achieve the same damn end.
Probably because they don't want to end up as a slave to the vampire who has bitten them. Lichdom offers immortality AND freedom (at the cost of flesh and skin). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 20:04:55
At first I thought, "They'd jump at the chance of becoming vampires*, but Werewolves? Not really..."
I was in the same camp as Wooly on this one, BUT then Dracons posted this-
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
We're talking about the cleric and Thayans in general. Not all Thayans are Red Wizards. Matter of fact, Red Wizards are in the minority.
We often tend to forget that there is a LOT more to Thay then just Red Wizards.
Perhaps the 'common man' may find it useful to become a Lycanthrope (although not Kossuth worshippers - Malor has jurisdiction over Werewolves). I'm picturing an 'underground' of Werewolves and others that are trying (futilely) to break the Wizards strangle-hold on Thay. I know, I'm entering Underworld ground, but the Lycan/Vampire schism is nearly as old as the legends of both creatures themselves, and it's used in many settings (White Wolf built one around it). I've often toyed with the idea of bringing it into FR, but I was never quite sure how.
Now I know.
*I could never for the life of me understand why so many Wizards choose to spend all that time and coin researching Lichdom, when all they need to do is get bitten by a vamp to achieve the same damn end. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 19:07:58
True. But Clergy also have plenty of power too. Especally if they kill a couple of Red Wizards without getting caught, which can happen.
Red Wizards may act with impunity, but even they have standards to adhere too. After all, if a Red Wizard just randomly goes slaying, or doing whatever he wants, other Red Wizards make take him out. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 18:47:36
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
We're talking about the cleric and Thayans in general. Not all Thayans are Red Wizards. Matter of fact, Red Wizards are in the minority.
True, but they are the ones who make the decisions, as the true power in Thay. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 18:43:18
We're talking about the cleric and Thayans in general. Not all Thayans are Red Wizards. Matter of fact, Red Wizards are in the minority. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 18:23:28
I'd think at least some of the Red Wizards would be keen to use them against Rashemen, either on the front line of battle as a counter against the berserkers, or to sneak them into isolated villages to wreck havoc during their monthly changes. But there would likely be at least as many Red Wizards who would oppose that idea, worrying that if the Rashemaar could manage to control/master the lycanthropy, they would have given their foes one more weapon to use against Thay. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 17:40:11
Indeed. Thayans would consider them useful for slaves, or gladiators.
Rememeber, they love their pure race, considering Mulan the greatest species of all. You need to be pureblood to become a red mage.
HOWEVER.Both the Clergy (Kossuth) and Red Wizards both have that whole Thayan advantage. If you can control it, and use it to kill enemies, they will be for it. After all, better to slay their enemies and control their underlings. So while the majority would not do it, some of the smarter or more powerful ones would. Especally ones that have a control over silver. I'd be willing to bet if a clergy did become one, he'd set about controling any silver exports/imports to have an monopoly over his weakness. Likely start sprouting that Kossuth himself declares silver to be a impure weapon, unworthy of being smelted by flames. So it be difficult to get any silver weapons anywhere he has control of it. At least in Thay.
If, and here is the difference. Thayans love power. Especally |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 16:19:36
I'm not an expert, but I feel that thayvians would consider lycanthropy as vulgar, and I don't know, unpure (purity being important to Kossuth's followers). The red wizards probably would try to enslave them, and make them fight each others as gladiator for the entertainment of the people, while the church would prefer to burn them alive to purify them. I don't think, after consideration, that they would be used as weapons (slave-soldiers).
I certainly do not think that the majority would try to become one of them.
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