| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dinnin |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 07:53:25
Hey Guys
Just a question, ive had it come up a few times with other party memebers. Do paladins need to be good? They Worship a specific diety so if its a LE one then that should still work right? Thats my arguemnt, the other people say that they have to be LG |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 16:12:46
Yes well 4ed... everyone can cast magic Dont realy care for 4 ed rules! |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 18 Jun 2010 : 17:38:11
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
It is still my firm oppinion that the word Paladin is linked to being good aligned.
But what about the Paladins of Fzoul???
Just messin' with ya.
With 4e rules you can easily tweak the class to be more appropriate for an evil god's unholy servant by changing the flavor of the powers. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 18 Jun 2010 : 16:53:15
It is still my firm oppinion that the word Paladin is linked to being good aligned. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 18 Jun 2010 : 16:52:46
It is still my firm oppinion that the word Paladin is linked to being good aligned. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 03:38:41
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
A paladin is per difinition a holy warrior, and since the term "holy" is per difinition "good", then per difinition a paladin is a holy, good warrior of good church!!!
If you want an evil version of a paladin well then Black Guard or Fallen Paladin is the choise for you.
But having a neutral or evil paladin is per difinition NOT possible!!!
For the record, 'holy' translates directly as 'separated' and means roughly 'that which is set apart from worldly things'. In a fantasy world such as the Realms where all the spectra of alignment have representative deities, one *could* be 'holy for Bane'. Not trying to be snippy, but as Wooly said, it isgood to be precise in use of language.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jun 2010 : 02:43:14
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
What does it say about holy then?
Uh... I've already quoted the relevant bits. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 13:37:06
What does it say about holy then?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 12:58:28
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
As long as anything is called "Holy" then it is not possible to be anything but "good". One could ofc have an unholy warrior with the same abilities as a paladin but it would then not be a paladin.
If one is holy and evil its called UN-holy. So...
If a Paladin is a "Holy" man/warrior/dude... then he can only and I repeat ONLY be of good allignment!!!
The dictionary does not agree with you, at least with regards to the definition of holy. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 12:26:20
As long as anything is called "Holy" then it is not possible to be anything but "good". One could ofc have an unholy warrior with the same abilities as a paladin but it would then not be a paladin.
If one is holy and evil its called UN-holy. So...
If a Paladin is a "Holy" man/warrior/dude... then he can only and I repeat ONLY be of good allignment!!!
|
| Joran Nobleheart |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 02:20:24
quote:
Originally posted by froglegg
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Just what Sian said.
However, in 3.5, not counting any alt rules, Paladins can worship Sune. One of the few gods that allow that.
As a divine caster, Paladins need to worship patron deity. Seeing as Paladins need to be LG by class, that only leaves NG, LG, LN gods. However, like I said above, Sune allows them in her fold.
Unless I am wrong, Sune's paladins could also be CG as well.
John
I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding of this, actually. The way I think it is, Sune is the only CG deity that allows paladins, who are LG. She is the exception to the one-step rule. I guess she figures she's cute enough to get away with it, and no one will complain. |
| froglegg |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 01:11:01
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Just what Sian said.
However, in 3.5, not counting any alt rules, Paladins can worship Sune. One of the few gods that allow that.
As a divine caster, Paladins need to worship patron deity. Seeing as Paladins need to be LG by class, that only leaves NG, LG, LN gods. However, like I said above, Sune allows them in her fold.
Unless I am wrong, Sune's paladins could also be CG as well.
John |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 01:10:10
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
A paladin is per difinition a holy warrior, and since the term "holy" is per difinition "good", then per difinition a paladin is a holy, good warrior of good church!!!
This stance does, however, allow for the possibility of CG or NG paladins.
However...
Holy is generally accepted to mean good, particularly in D&D. That is not the dictionary definition, though. From dictionary.com:
quote:
1. specially recognized as or declared sacred by religious use or authority; consecrated: holy ground.
2. dedicated or devoted to the service of god, the church, or religion: a holy man.
Therefore...
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But having a neutral or evil paladin is per difinition NOT possible!!!
By defining a paladin as a holy warrior, a neutral or evil paladin is by definition possible.
Granted, I do -- as I've stated before -- feel that only LG types should be called paladin, and others should get another title. But I also think that if we play the dictionary card, we need to make sure we're using the word correctly.  |
| Cleric Generic |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 00:38:38
Indeed. Divine or godly instead of holy then. You get the idea nevertheless. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 00:35:32
A paladin is per difinition a holy warrior, and since the term "holy" is per difinition "good", then per difinition a paladin is a holy, good warrior of good church!!!
If you want an evil version of a paladin well then Black Guard or Fallen Paladin is the choise for you.
But having a neutral or evil paladin is per difinition NOT possible!!! |
| Cleric Generic |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 08:22:08
The 4e paladin class is less of a classic paladin and more of a generic holy warrior. So you could have a 'paladin' of Gruumsh, as in a divinely inspired warrior thereof, as much as a 'proper' paladin of Torm or Moradin, etc. |
| Talwyn |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 08:05:33
quote:
Originally posted by Dinnin
Hey Guys
Just a question, ive had it come up a few times with other party memebers. Do paladins need to be good? They Worship a specific diety so if its a LE one then that should still work right? Thats my arguemnt, the other people say that they have to be LG
It depends on which edition of D&D you're playing.
Ed's 1 & 2 clearly stated [except for those that worship Sune in FR] that Paladins MUST be Lawful Good.
In 3e & 3.5 the alignment requirements relaxed a little bit.
As for 4e, I don't know as I don't play that system
Ultimately what it comes down to is what the DM of your campaign decides is the ruling. The rule books are there to give you a framework in which you can play a game: you don't have to follow them to the letter if you so choose. Numerous campaigns have "house rules" as DM's & players alter the rules so as to make the game experience more fun for them.
The only limits are what your imagination and creativity can come up with ;)
|
| woodwwad |
Posted - 11 Jun 2010 : 04:26:25
I really like the idea of each extreme alignment having a paladine as the Unearthed Arcana discribes.
I do not like the idea of LG paladine of Sune, not a good idea. CG paladines are the way to go there. |
| Fingal |
Posted - 03 Jun 2010 : 12:23:02
I've always been a fan of allowing paladins for evil gods - a long as it makes sense. Bane would perhaps be the obvious one.
I've never really liked paladins as a base class though. They seem much better suited as a Prc. Does anyone have any experience running them thus? |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 19:16:03
Although it is probably not too relevant anymore, under 1E, there were eight NPC "paladin" classes, published in two early issues of Dragon Magazine: the anit-paladin (CE, #39), and seven more paladin-like NPC classes (#106): Myrikan (NG), Garath (CG), Lyan (LN), Paramander (N), Fantra (CN), Illrigger (LE), and Arrikan (NE). |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 19:12:07
One could use the Crusader class from the deities books as a model for various holy warriors, but ( I could be wrong here, its been years since I looked at the class) I seem to remember them being seriously over-powered. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 15:19:55
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
There's nothing wrong with having evil champions of the gods or "black Knights", but using the term Paladin seems wrong to me. Champion yes, but not Paladin. The whole archetype is tied to the idea of the valorous chivalric knights of good. I am not a fan of the class in the first place, especially in the Realms as I think it fits in a world with a clearer positioning of "good" and "evil", but the whole idea of the class is to much tied to the idea of a warrior and protector of what's seen as right to be modified in my opinion.
Agreed, all the way across. I've also advocated using a term like Champion to describe a divinely souped up warrior-type. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 09:49:38
There's nothing wrong with having evil champions of the gods or "black Knights", but using the term Paladin seems wrong to me. Champion yes, but not Paladin. The whole archetype is tied to the idea of the valorous chivalric knights of good. I am not a fan of the class in the first place, especially in the Realms as I think it fits in a world with a clearer positioning of "good" and "evil", but the whole idea of the class is to much tied to the idea of a warrior and protector of what's seen as right to be modified in my opinion. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 20:58:25
Thank you, Jakk, for those issue #'s. I think it was the one in #349- is that the one with the two chicks in slit skirts with swords on the cover? Or was that #323? I remember it had articles on Barbarian, Ranger, and Rogue combos, a great article on Monk variants, and a few small PrC's. They did another one like it for spellcasting classes the very next issue. (I loved the bard variants, especially the Green Ear!) |
| Dracons |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 11:13:28
quote:
Originally posted by Katans
A Paladin's alignment is in no way linked to his or her deity's. The "one step" restriction that applies to Clerics does not apply to paladins.
It is in Forgotten Realms.
Look under the Paladin description in Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.
All Paladins are devotted to a patron deity, chosen at the start of their career as paladins. The paladin's deity must be lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good. The only exception is for Sune. Under the Choosing a Patron it goes on to state that all divine casters, even druids, rangers and such, must be within one step of their deity alignment. |
| Katans |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 08:32:23
3.X pallys are usually LG, however, there are a bunch of variants for different alignments. See Unearthed Arcana and various Dragon Magazines.
A Paladin's alignment is in no way linked to his or her deity's. The "one step" restriction that applies to Clerics does not apply to paladins. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 05:44:09
I made a bunch of Paladins for various Greater Gods. Each of them had their own special powers and abilites based on such greater god. Have yet to put it in play. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 05:23:02
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
That book mentioned other ways to create variants, as I recall, and there was a write-up in a 3.5 era Warriors-themed issue of Dragon. (forget which #- I have it, but not at hand at the moment) It had several variants (the original version of the Unearthed Arcana materail, i believe) and ideas for creating new ones, as well.
DragonDex is a beautiful thing...
Paladins, Variant:
"Not Your Father's Do-Gooder" Mike McArtor #323(p.104)
"Law and Chaos" Jonathan Drain #349(p.92)
I'm pretty sure the first article is the one you're thinking of, Alystra.
Edit: In my campaigns, we allow paladins of almost any deity, and therefore almost any alignment; the only restriction is that the paladin never sway from the alignment of his or her deity. Deities of nature don't have paladins; they have rangers for that kind of thing. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 05:04:41
Paladins are seen more as having strong belief in their ideals, so the usually don't fall into any neutralities regarding alignment. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 04:42:01
Is there no LN paladin? |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 21:05:17
That book mentioned other ways to create variants, as I recall, and there was a write-up in a 3.5 era Warriors-themed issue of Dragon. (forget which #- I have it, but not at hand at the moment) It had several variants (the original version of the Unearthed Arcana materail, i believe) and ideas for creating new ones, as well. |
