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 Question: Are black dragons born evil?

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Solan Vulutia Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 09:17:41
My friends and I recently got into debate on whether or not this is true. This does not necessarily just go for the black dragons themselves. Are all dragons inherently born into their alignment? Both sides made good points but it all comes down to the fact on whether or not the DM wants to make them that way. I would just like to hear other peoples opinions on the subject. Thanks!
15   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Alystra Illianniis Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 23:32:30
Actually, Council of wyrms answers that, too. Dargons are taught and spoken to long before they ever hatch. they are able to recognize their mothers- the "draca" by their voices. They learn language and history of their particular race even before they hatch, and thus they come out of the shell already having cetain beliefs ingrained into their minds. some of them even learn other languages and cultures while still in the egg. So, yes, they do already have an alignment.
Artemel Posted - 23 Jan 2010 : 01:40:12
Council of Wyrms answers this one with a resounding "Yes."

Why? Because even before birth, dragons are somewhat self-aware. From the moment they become strong enough to crack out of their shells, they are as intelligent and self-aware as most... teenagers. =p

They might even have knowledge of history or arcana like sages, because of information they absorb while still in their egg.
woodwwad Posted - 22 Jan 2010 : 04:10:22
In high school, I played in a game where my high level druid got ahold of some green dragon eggs and raised them into a good alignment. My pc was NG and we did it that the dragons were born evil and over time I and my followers were able to get the dragons to change to good alignment. But there is always that chance in the back of the your mind that these dragons will revert to evil one day.

Remember though, even in the wild not all dragons will be of the stated alignment. Even when alignment says always, it just mean the large majority of the time.
Bird844 Posted - 22 Jan 2010 : 02:01:31
I feel that it comes down to how they were raised. To quote a dragonlance book by douglas niles(I can't remember the name), a chromatic dragon would be raised to think that "Mercy is weakness. Weakness is death." A dragon who believes this would pass it on to its children/hatchlings.
Quale Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 12:44:23
They are born like Paul Atreides, fully aware, it's possible. I'd still pick Thauramarth's mention.

We only had one such situation, in Castle Perilous.
bladeinAmn Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 06:56:49
I know the original ?'tion of this thread was if black dragons are born evil or not, but I reckon that this is a good thread to begin a discussion of the nature vs. nurture argument, in that I think it applies heavily to dragons as well.

Given that dragons have a naturally much superior intelligence than humans do, and live for a lot longer (for a wisdom benefit to combine w/intelligence, if said dragon applies himself/herself to it) than humans, then one could safely infer that ALOT of thought goes through a dragon's mind and heart into determining what alignment it'd like to be. Even in the young stages of the dragon's life.

Thauramarth Posted - 27 Sep 2009 : 10:10:41
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

There still has to pass some time after birth that they develop full self-awareness, I guess, maybe they are unaligned.



Wooly - thanks for bringing to our attention that piece of SES lore. Priceless, as always. Goes straight into the ever-expanding FR Notebook.

Quale's reply triggered memories, so I went to have a look at an old Dragon Mag article (#50) - "Hatching Is Only the Beginning... Raising a Baby Dragon? Watch Out for Tantrums!" (The article was reprinted in one of the old "Best of Dragon Magazine" compilations.) The author suggests that a hatchling dragon will emulate the behavior (which includes alignment) of "Mother", i.e., the first creature the baby dragon sees after hatching. The article still assumes that dragons have "inborn" alignment tendencies - if the influence of "Mother" (or a reasonable surrogate) is removed, Baby D. will revert to the standard alignment for its race.
Quale Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 16:54:37
There still has to pass some time after birth that they develop full self-awareness, I guess, maybe they are unaligned.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 15:15:52
Garnet was a wholly unique dragon, and should not be considered for the purposes of this discussion -- because what came out of that egg was by no means a normal dragon. Here's the full skinny, from the pen of Steven Schend:

quote:
Yeah, I've lost my notes as to exactly which dragon/great wyrm it was that slew Sylvallitham; anyone know/remember if I'd placed him among the slaughtered dragons down among the Lands of Intrigue? (I've been rereading those areas recently and was astonished I'd left quite a few rather ancient dragons in place and slaughtered many more younger dragons.....) I can state unequivocally that Garnetallisor was not the slayer of his mentor.

As for those "arcing bolts of electrical fire," I wanted to underscore that this critter was something special. For visual purposes, think of it like silver fire--it looks and acts a bit like fire, but inherently it's something else entirely. What exactly has yet to be statted, and I'd just as soon let GMs handle that.

If you need my opinion, I'd say it's exactly as stated--electrical fire that burns and shocks; damage is standard dragon progression of 2d8/age category but it counts as both fire/lightning while bypassing defenses designed against either one. (In other words, you're only immune to/defended against his breath weapon if you're immune/resistant to BOTH fire and lightning.)


Garnet was a wholly unique creature unlike any to exist before or since. He was a chimera of dracoforms, and the only reason he was red in color and blue in shape was this: Saeval Ammath had many secrets never revealed to elves outside of his clan, and often only to a few select members of his immediate family. Saeval's grandfather--an exiled elf who was born outside of Cormtanthor and never trod its paths--was a half-dragon, born of a silver dragon mother. He was a great tracker and wizard of Ardeep (Sure hope I'm getting my dates/names right, but I'm winging it here from half-remembered notes that don't survive; George and Eric can correct me before this thread closes. ) and patriarch of a loyal and good branch of the Ammath clan in those western woods.

Saeval came to Myth Drannor to learn more magics but also to cure a great sorrow of his own--the silver dragon (long publicly a family friend but in truth his own great-grandmother) had died protecting him and others from battle-maddened Hlondathan mages scavenging for any magics they could find (and they also took their trade caravan to be smuggling weapons and magic to the Cormanthan elves, their enemies in the Crown and Scepter Wars). Saeval preserved the dragon's soul in a brand-new kiira, and spent the next 50 years or so trying to find a way to restore her to life. He studied under many of the great wizards of Myth Drannor and COrmanthor of all races and he wandered far and wide (rumor has it he venture far onto the Great Glacier and as far south as Chondath).

When he found a blue dragon's egg in his wanderings, he magically kept it from hatching or developing, and he spent a decade of casting to alter its form into something powerful enough to house the silver dragon's soul. While he managed to match the power of the red dragons inside the form of the blue dragon and make other changes to allow for the magical transfer, he either could not or did not change the dragon's gender within its shell.

When the egg finally hatched in 348, Garnet was unique. Physically, he had to relearn everything to adapt to this new form, but mentally, (s)he had all the knowledge of her previous life. Thus, even at hatchling stage, he had access to the special abilities of a very old silver dragon (except polymorph self, as the magics used to create his new form locked him into one shape; and damage reduction, which is a function of the physical body, not the mind).

Thus, even while Garnet is now physically a wyrm, (s)he's gone into epic levels for certain special abilities. Assuming, of course, that he still exists...

Hope this explains why Garnet isn't either evil or the start of a whole new race of dragons. While one could postulate that he could mate with either reds or blues and have offspring of that hue/form, it's far more sensible (given the origin and attendant problems) to state that Garnet, while healthy in all ways, was born sterile.

Whew.... Geez, Wooly....simple email and I expected it'd be a short response, but nooo.....

Hope these answers suit folks; if not, then they're just the ramblings and wild ideas of a fellow fan (which they are, in truth, as I've no official standing with this stuff other than to say what I meant / planned when I wrote this stuff 8 years ago).

Steven
Thauramarth Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 13:29:12
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

Well, the reputation of FOR 1 is somewhat mixed when Realms lore is concerned, so it should maybe be taken with a grain of salt. But I don't own the book, so I will watch my mouth here. But wasn't there a story about a good Red Dragon in Myth-Drannor?



Yes - Garnetallisar, aka Garnet, a red dragon hatched in 348 DR from an egg heavily enchanted by Saeval Ammath, is listed as being born with LG alignment.
Ayunken-vanzan Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 13:29:10
The dragons mentioned all appear in the roll call of Dragons of Faerun, so I consider this lore of the original draconomicon as valid canon.

The red dragon Garnetallisar of Myth Drannor was magically altered.

Yes, no more than a dozen dragons with abnormal alignment exist in the Realms, I think.
Jorkens Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 12:53:49
Well, the reputation of FOR 1 is somewhat mixed when Realms lore is concerned, so it should maybe be taken with a grain of salt. But I don't own the book, so I will watch my mouth here. But wasn't there a story about a good Red Dragon in Myth-Drannor?

Either way, I think an estimate of no more than a dozen dragons of unusual alignments at any given time in Faerun sounds about right doesn't it?
Ayunken-vanzan Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 12:42:34
We have a few examples for aberrant dragons: Aerosclughphalar "Gildenfire" in the High Forrest, N Gold Dragon (DoF), Aurus in Arabel, N Gold Dragon (orig. Drac, FOR 1), Lux in the Spine of the World, CN (tendency to good) Red Dragon (org. Drac, FOR 1), Pelath on the Nelanther Islands, N (tendency to chaotic) Bronze Dragon (orig. Drac, FOR 1). Especially the last seems to be born as neutral dragon, not LG.
Jorkens Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 12:23:53
I agree with Ayunken-vanzan, Dragons are born with a standard alignment. Exceptions to this should be extremely rare to say the least.
Ayunken-vanzan Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 09:20:47
Yes, they are born into their alignment. Of course, over the course of their lifes, their may be changes, and their might be even dragons which are born with another than their normal alignment, but the standard is that every dragon is born into its alignment.

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