| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Raith |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 17:04:30
Ugh, I really need to get caught up with my Nightserpent thread...I've fallen so far behind in the story that I'm now asking for help with something that I haven't even come -close- to chronicling yet! I have developed a great deal of sympathy for those web-comic authors I used to gripe about when they fell behind in updates...
SPOILERS FOR ANYONE WHO PLAYS IN MY CAMPAIGN! YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!
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The party will soon be going to Thay, and then to Zhentil Keep. If things go as they plan, they will be meeting Szass Tam and Manshoon.
This is happening during the Thayan Civil War, and I've decided that Tyrtarous is, thus far, the only Tharch presently aligned with Szass Tam. (This works out fairly well, as it is both the home city of one of the characters and run by a priest of Bane, the patron deity of another of my PCs.)
I plan to have there be an encounter in Thay where rival Red Wizards fight the party, preferably from griffin back, along with a gaggle of Gnolls/Blood Orcs/Whatever. Are there any premade stats for Red Wizard Griffin Calvary of at least level 15 or so floating around someplace? It's less likely that they'll come to harm in Zhentil Keep (Unless they do something that shatters past records for ridiculous ideas. Unlikely, as they've set the bar pretty high!), so I'm less concerned about that. But I'd love it if they could have a real serious scrap with some established big time FR Bad Guys, instead of the more-standard scrapes with Purple Dragons and Harpers.
Have any fellow DMs out there got some particularly memorable Red Wizard stories they'd like to share? Combat or otherwise, I'd be so grateful for inspiration. I'm a little nervous that my LE might start running together, when really Zhents and Thayans (Thayvians?) are very very different people. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| goatunit |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 16:19:20
My PCs have never been able to resist the lure of cheap magical items from Thayvian traders. And have never failed to be surprised when they turn those trusted items against Red Wizards later in the campaign and they don't work. |
| Raith |
Posted - 24 Jun 2009 : 18:12:45
Hey guys, just an update on how this turned out;
The campaign is all over now and I'll try to get caught up on the story I was writing, but as for the time in Thay...well, I think things went pretty okay! I scrapped the griffin idea after a little consideration though, and went for a sneaky betrayal instead.
The Red Wizard they met up with was named Zuthatra Tiervin, a former apprentice of Szass Tam and a cousin of the Red Wizard back in Waterdeep's enclave. (She got the party in touch with him after they told her they wanted to find a way to speak with Szass Tam) He was looking for a team to better his social standing in the wildly busy Tyrtarous Gladiator pits. He told the PCs that if they could unseat the team of his rival he'd be more than happy to bring them before the Zulkir of Necromancy. (Their names after all, were not exactly unknown.}
With the aid of the Spell Compendium and a week to prepare, they blew through the combat a lot easier than I'd hoped. (I guess thats what I get for lovingly crafting three opponents from the ground up. >_<) And afterward they all went to meet with Zuthatra. He was waiting in the back of the arena seated casually on a pile of crates. A dapper fellow, he carried himself and Staff of Necromancy quite calmly, scalp tattooed with symbols that denoted both his station and his favored school, and a pair of round "sunglasses" perched on his nose. (Actually lenses of Deathwatch. Teehee.)
He congratulated the party and hopped down, pulling off the tarp over the crates as on his way down...revealing a Symbol of Weakness! (Wizard 9, Red Wizard 10, Archmage 1)
His level 11 Gnoll fighters rushed forward with their mancatchers, intent on capturing this nifty new gladiatorial team that'd keep their master on top for a long time! (And them out of the pits to boot)
Half the party went down after the symbol, and Zuthatra won initiative. He cut loose with a Wave of Exhaustion and a quickened Ray of Enfeeblement at the Str 40 Dragon Disciple fellow. Gnolls began pinning people down and nobody could get past them to attack the mage. On his next turn it was another quickened Ray of Enfeeblement, followed by an Empowered Maximized Ray of Enfeeblement. (Thats -16 str, folks.) Everyone was down to str 1 or lower, and they told me they gave up.
I think they expected to lose at this point, figuring I was trying to railroad them into some sort of side story. After I told them that they were slaves now and the campaign would end, they reconsidered and the druid cast Shapechange on herself to become an Iron Golem.
Brilliant! She smashed through the gnolls and closed in on the Red Wizard (who was trying not to wet himself at this point), while the party leader made a huge intimidate check.
Having heard of the generally evil reputation of this particular party, Zuthatra didn't even bother trying to take hostages. He knew full well that Umolka the Golem would simply crush his poor soft brainmeats if he didn't do as told.
Once everyone was released he smilingly paid for all of their restorations and made them his guests for the evening. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 15:46:13
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
My character Kappelheim Gladdensnoot of Roundstone is a Gnome with psionic talent whose profession is that of a archeologist, linguist, historian, adventurer who is travelling all over Faerun. Imagine a 1 m large Indiana Jones without hat and whip, and you're not too far off the first impression.
Very cute. |
| tauster |
Posted - 10 May 2009 : 10:38:12
quote:
Originally posted by Raith
Have any fellow DMs out there got some particularly memorable Red Wizard stories they'd like to share? Combat or otherwise, I'd be so grateful for inspiration. I'm a little nervous that my LE might start running together, when really Zhents and Thayans (Thayvians?) are very very different people.
Here's a short story from a Moonshae campaign* I play in.
* 2e rules & the "Player's Options" series used, plus a fair amount of house rules
My character Kappelheim Gladdensnoot of Roundstone is a Gnome with psionic talent whose profession is that of a archeologist, linguist, historian, adventurer who is travelling all over Faerun. Imagine a 1 m large Indiana Jones without hat and whip, and you're not too far off the first impression.
Often - much too often - when Kappelheim makes an exciting new discovery, a Red Wizardess suddenly pops up (i.e. teleports in), beefed up by a too many henchmen (oftentimes lesser undead - which is awful for a Gnome who is deathly afraid of undead!), grabs whatever the poor guy just unearthed, gloats over his misfortune and dissapears, often leaving a teeth grinding gnome behind. She smokes some kind of fat cigars that she sometimes uses in her spells (mostly smoke or fire related magic, but also delayed explosive spells - which can be extremely bad when used underground!).
I know that there are many cliches used in both my PC and the Thayvian NPC, but both are fun in play. Perhaps that gives you some inspiration and a few new, evil ideas.
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| Raith |
Posted - 06 May 2009 : 16:31:19
D, I hadn't looked at this thread in awhile, sorry for not getting back sooner. Thats all very very cool advice, and I'm sure to use some of it! Thanks so much. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 05:43:37
I recall an encounter near Mistledale that our DM had devised (KnighErrantJR here). I believe it was a Zhentarim Skymage (see Lords of Darkness, page 102, easily adapted to the Red Wizards).
Basically, the griffon rider was meant as flying artillery. To use a simpler reference, think of them as the Dwarven Gryphonriders from Warcraft 2 or 3. They are fast, and are meant for surgical "bombings" of certain areas. I'd recommend (highly) burst spells. Yes, the save is what is difficult to swallow (less damage to the PC's is likely), but these guys will be at least 400 feet from the PC's (more likely 500 to 600 at level 15). Given that, it will be awfully difficult for the PC's to retaliate (fighters would have a very difficult time with a -8 penalty for their ranged attacks).
As to the choice between Gnolls and Orcs, I'd choose Gnolls as they are more common in Thay. The gnolls even help with some slaving operations, if I recall correctly.
As to other PrC's that may be applicable or adaptable: The Dragonrider from the Draconomicon is a great one, and if you adjust ever so slightly, you could have some gnolls riding griffons, doing all sorts of bad things using mounted archery/rideby attack, although they would get closer than the wizard.
If you were really mean, you could make the red wizard a conjurer, which would bring a number of extra "toys" to the battle. You could have a Red Wizard Conjurer (no Necromancy, Enchantment, or Transmutation?) who has access to several high level conjurations (thus, temporary threats), the gnolls as backup, and then run it as if it were a patrol. It really all depends on what you want to do.
Hope I helped.
/d |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 17:48:24
quote:
Originally posted by Raith
Yeah, Unclean was a good read. Real pity where the series leads though...
Knight, I really like the idea you pitched, it sounds really interesting and makes me wish my campaign had more to do with Red Wizards so I could implement it! But I'm slightly more sparing with the actual wearers of the Red in my campaign than with simple Thayan mages. Each member of that elite order (and the prestige class that goes along with it!) is a mini BBEG onto him or herself, so while I can see a "run of the mill" Thayan (Thayvian?) being a trifle unimaginative, the Reds would use the proper spell for the proper situation more often.
I think I'd likely go with:
Regular mage being very predictable, lightning bolt when fireball would be better style.
Lesser Red Wizard being generally better at his job and using the right spell for the job with a fair amount of regularity.
Higher ranking Reds get very clever as you said, and make good use of Archmage energy substitution.
I suppose doing it that way might take away some of the fun of a PC getting floored by a sonic lightning bolt after preparing for electricity damage, but I'd want the PCs to generally be nervous whenever combat with a Red Wizard seems imminent. To sort of preserve the mystique and image of power they've built up, bwahaha!
(Nobody mention Rasheman, kay?)
I also dig the idea of identifiable tattoos, but I'd probably require that a PC be able to either read draconic (as the language of magic) or require a decipher script check with a fairly low DC to pick up on the pattern.
Also, what does Candlekeep prefer, Thayan or Thayvian? I've been saying Thayan, but I like old things and think Thayvian sounds pretty cool too. Now that I'm getting loaded with 2nd Edition books (Thanks again Wooly!) I'm getting more and more inclined to do things the old way.
Anybody have any idea how Ed says it?
Thanks for the feedback Raith. I realized after posting that I'd referenced some pretty high-level action (probably b/c I'm running a high-level game as we speak) but you got the gist. The explanation is even easier at lower levels- it's not just that these folks are unimaginative- it's that their masters (the actual wearers of red) are too scared of being murdered by their students to give them a wide selection of spells to choose from. If an apprentice only knows fire spells, you can protect yourself from that apprentice pretty easily.
As far as the tattoos, I required a knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)-since the RWs are the equivalent of nobility- or Knowledge (local, Thay) to interpret the designs... though as I recall, the person who figured it out in that campaign was (of course) the Bard, using Bardic Knowledge. In explaining the tats, I simplified it- IMG, they were actually a base symbol (for Evokers, a set of concentric circles, symbolizing a fireball) which were modified to show which 'school' you had studied in... thus, there were 2 types of Evokers (I had 2 diff stat blocks) who used different base tactics and had slightly different tattoos- one was the circles wreathed in flame, the other the circles with the area between shaded very lightly- the 1st group were of the 'any problem can be solved with the application of enough high explosive' school of thought, the others were actually assassins, who used pinpoint spells, often silenced to whack an individual with just enough force to do the job (and often used quite a bit of Necro, too). It was cool to watch the PCs adjust to this- they made heavy use of scouting and scrying to see what sort of specialists they might encounter, then would have the right set of protective spells, potions, even formations to combat that individual's 'style'. Which, of course, was devastating to them when they ran into a lieutenant who totally eschewed the normal protocols. My logic here was that these were the ones who were intelligent and innovative enough to rise above their brethren to positions of authority, so they were far more capable of thinking outside the box and using seldom-seen spell combos... mostly to guard against their fellow Red Wizards, of course.
But for your game, since the (pre-Red) wizards are still largely specialists, there's no reason they couldn't use the tattoos, too... maybe just a less-stylized version, and far less likely to be magical
Good luck with the Campaign, and let us know how it goes! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 16:26:02
quote:
Originally posted by Raith
Also, what does Candlekeep prefer, Thayan or Thayvian? I've been saying Thayan, but I like old things and think Thayvian sounds pretty cool too.
[...]
Anybody have any idea how Ed says it?
Yes. Ed, through Code of the Harpers, tells us that both 'Thayan' and 'Thayvian' are correct terms, and both are in usage.
I've always used 'Thayvian,' just as I've always used 'Zhentilar' [which has thankfully returned, as noted in PoF].
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 16:24:31
quote:
Originally posted by Raith
Also, what does Candlekeep prefer, Thayan or Thayvian? I've been saying Thayan, but I like old things and think Thayvian sounds pretty cool too. Now that I'm getting loaded with 2nd Edition books (Thanks again Wooly!) I'm getting more and more inclined to do things the old way.
Anybody have any idea how Ed says it?
I have a file on things like that... But as I've mentioned recently, my computer died, and I'm currently on my wife's machine. Until the replacement comes in on Wednesday and I get it assembled and up and running, I can't access those files readily.  |
| Raith |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 16:08:46
Yeah, Unclean was a good read. Real pity where the series leads though...
Knight, I really like the idea you pitched, it sounds really interesting and makes me wish my campaign had more to do with Red Wizards so I could implement it! But I'm slightly more sparing with the actual wearers of the Red in my campaign than with simple Thayan mages. Each member of that elite order (and the prestige class that goes along with it!) is a mini BBEG onto him or herself, so while I can see a "run of the mill" Thayan (Thayvian?) being a trifle unimaginative, the Reds would use the proper spell for the proper situation more often.
I think I'd likely go with:
Regular mage being very predictable, lightning bolt when fireball would be better style.
Lesser Red Wizard being generally better at his job and using the right spell for the job with a fair amount of regularity.
Higher ranking Reds get very clever as you said, and make good use of Archmage energy substitution.
I suppose doing it that way might take away some of the fun of a PC getting floored by a sonic lightning bolt after preparing for electricity damage, but I'd want the PCs to generally be nervous whenever combat with a Red Wizard seems imminent. To sort of preserve the mystique and image of power they've built up, bwahaha!
(Nobody mention Rasheman, kay?)
I also dig the idea of identifiable tattoos, but I'd probably require that a PC be able to either read draconic (as the language of magic) or require a decipher script check with a fairly low DC to pick up on the pattern.
Also, what does Candlekeep prefer, Thayan or Thayvian? I've been saying Thayan, but I like old things and think Thayvian sounds pretty cool too. Now that I'm getting loaded with 2nd Edition books (Thanks again Wooly!) I'm getting more and more inclined to do things the old way.
Anybody have any idea how Ed says it? |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 03:48:13
I've never run IN Thay, but I have used Red Wizards. I like to set up the wizards as being somewhat predictable, inasmuch as members of the same school of specialization tend to exhibit very similar strategies. I.E., Thayan Evokers (of sufficient level) might display a very strong tendency to lead with a Quickened Lightning Bolt, followed by an Empowered lightning bolt. Every time. Even when a single Fireball might have been more effective. My rationale is that they were all taught in the same manner, often by the same teacher, and thus learn similar spells and tactics. (I should point out that IMG amongst the many facial/head tats used by the RW, are always tattoos marking their school of specialization- thus when the PCs eventually figure that out, they can know what sort of Wizard they're facing at a glance).
Now, having set up these 'hard and fast' rules of engagement for various specialists, I make sure that the higher-ranking Reds either ignore them entirely or use variations of them that will discomfit those who think they know what to expect: For example, using the evoker's tactics from above, the BBEG evoker might instead, cast the same two spells modified with the archmage energy substitution ability to make the lightning bolts sonic damage instead, so that elemental protections won't help, or using illusions or alter self to change his school tatoos so the PCs mis-identify him as an illusionist or a conjurer, so they use the incorrect counter-tactics.
I don't know how much that helps, but I'd certainly appreciate any feedback from you, Raith, or anyone else, for that matter. |
| Marquant Volker |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 01:02:16
Last week i finished the novel Unclean, it was a good read, its events takes place in Thay and it details the life, both for the Red wizzards and the commoners. The ever-plotting Wizzards, and their games of power may give you the inspiration you seek. |
| Raith |
Posted - 26 Apr 2009 : 18:54:39
No thanks Zuc, I firmly believe that it's much less fun for somebody to play through combat encounters that they've helped to build. Appreciate the offer though. |
| Zucrous |
Posted - 26 Apr 2009 : 10:36:42
no responses yet? -gulp- Well since your secret is out I can try and help you with anything you need. I highly suggest lots of the spell "horrid wilting" |
| Kuje |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 18:06:23
Oddly, I haven't used Thay that often but I did run one or two of the adventures from the Spellbound box set but it's been a long time since I've done that. The only other campaign I've used Thay in is when a PC was captured and became a slave for a Red Wizard but that email campaign fizzled out after only a few emails. |
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