| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 15:42:09
I was reading Faiths and Avatars and in a sidebar there was a reference to the Shadevari. Powerful entities that came into existance before Selune and Shar. Presumably after Ao created the realms space.
Has anything been written about these beings?
Or can anyone speculate on their nature? |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 15:56:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, I see Sage has had similar thoughts as me - I was going to make them out to be powerful beings from the Plane of Shadow, who left Realmspace when the sun was created (there could be any number of reasons why they were there in the first place, from Shar to them just being bored and wanting to watch a world get created). Eventually, when all their extra-planer 'research' was done, they decided to build a Realm of their own within the Shadowfel - the Land of Mists. However, they didn't have enough power (or perhaps they were just lazy or uncreative), and decided to build there realm out of pieces of others. Ravenloft may not be the first realm they took, but it is the first one recorded, and became the basis for the largest landmass in their little 'world'.
Of course, another theory I had was that the shadevari are/were proto-Dark Powers, or whatever was left over from the essence of the Dark Powers when they created the Realm of Dread. Not satisfied with such a "flawed" creation, the shadevari moved on through the Plane of Shadow, whereupon they encountered the "timeless nothingness" that was the infant Realmspace, and found it ripe for the type of domain they wished to create.
This is, naturally, assuming the baernaloths weren't responsible for the creation of RAVENLOFT, as I've speculated about previously here at Candlekeep and at the 'Fraternity of Shadows' website. 
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| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 15:36:20
I was going to do the 'multi-quote thingy', but I got lazy...
From their write-up in that sidebar, I would have to go along with Brimstone - according to 4e rules, Primordials "existed before the gods" - that sounds just like the Shadevari to me.
Also, I see Sage has had similar thoughts as me - I was going to make them out to be powerful beings from the Plane of Shadow, who left Realmspace when the sun was created (there could be any number of reasons why they were there in the first place, from Shar to them just being bored and wanting to watch a world get created). Eventually, when all their extra-planer 'research' was done, they decided to build a Realm of their own within the Shadowfel - the Land of Mists. However, they didn't have enough power (or perhaps they were just lazy or uncreative), and decided to build there realm out of pieces of others. Ravenloft may not be the first realm they took, but it is the first one recorded, and became the basis for the largest landmass in their little 'world'.
That was the basic premise, just going by the sidebar, of where I wanted to go with them (and then I was going to connect each of them to another shadowy being, like Mask, or Erebus).
Unfortunately, that VL entry makes them out to be just another reptillian monster - MOST disappointing.
Still... rectifiable with my original idea, and I can thank Wooly for that. 
If these curious, enigmatic beings were completely amoral and intent on learning all they could about other beings, it stands to reason that part of their 'research' would have been to mate with (or just do some magical gene-splicing) other species, just to see what would result - thus producing 'lesser Shadevari'. The ones in the VL MM entry would be ones that resulted from experimenting with Sarrukh (in 3e, take a Sarrukh and slap on the Shade template, and then add-in the other abilites - including the lack of eyes).
Then I can take my other idea - that all those beings represented in the Fane of Shadows - are just offspring of the original 13 and other Outsiders (which may include gods, but would also be heavy with celestials and fiends - which are really just the divine 'farm team', IMHO). Then Mask himself could just be the result of a Shadevari and Shar.... ummmm... experimenting.
That way, I not only work around the original number (which was posing a problem for me with the Fane of Shadows), but I can reconcile those monsters with the original concept in F&A.
The simplest way to do the 'children' would be to apply both the fiendish and Shade templates to a base creature, and then add-in a couple of random abilites (each of these beings would be unique).
Any Thoughs? |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 15:15:43
Shame on you Wooly.   |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 12:26:47
Yeah, I found the reference after I typed that, but before I posted. I meant to go back and remove it, but I obviously got sidetracked.  |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 09:11:40
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't recall them being described as pre-dating Shar...
It's noted in the "Sisters of Light and Darkness" sidebar on pg. 141 in Faiths & Avatars.
Cheers I was just about to go check the reference for Wooly. |
| Marc |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 07:19:03
there is a different version in one of the polyhedrons, more xp I think
the sarrukh origin would be better cause of their appearance |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 06:52:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would personally think that the shadevari come from somewhere beyond Realmspace.
The sidebar I referenced above suggests that the 13 lords of shadow may have come from elsewhere. Or were simply derived from the substance of the misty realm they once occupied.
quote:
However... Maybe the legends are wrong. Maybe the shadevari aren't that old... (Why would they choose to wander around a universe with nothing in it?) They could be former sarrukh, I think. Perhaps a group of sarrukh stumbled upon shadow magic, and delved very deeply into it. They went so deep into it that their very forms changed (perhaps this was voluntary, perhaps it wasn't) into the form shadevari now have. Because of their power and ambition, they were imprisoned by a larger group of sarrukh.
I've speculated in the past that they were extra-planar travellers -- possibly from what would later become the Dread Domains -- who may simply have found the primordial "time of nothingness" after the creation of Realmspace to their liking and made it their home for a time. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 06:44:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't recall them being described as pre-dating Shar...
It's noted in the "Sisters of Light and Darkness" sidebar on pg. 141 in Faiths & Avatars. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 06:20:25
I don't recall them being described as pre-dating Shar... But then, I don't recall much lore about them beyond what I just re-read in Villains' Lorebook (which is free on the Wizards downloads page).
I've not read the novels in years... I don't recall actively disliking the novels as much as not being impressed by them. And it was the names that bothered me more than anything else. Caledan Caldorian and Mari Al-Marien. Two much intra-name repetition there. Hating the names and feeling "eh" about the story leads to an overall negative opinion. As with so much else, YMMV. As I've pointed out before, some novels I've hated or been indifferent to are quite well-liked by a large number of other people.
Back on topic...
I would personally think that the shadevari come from somewhere beyond Realmspace.
However... Maybe the legends are wrong. Maybe the shadevari aren't that old... (Why would they choose to wander around a universe with nothing in it?) They could be former sarrukh, I think. Perhaps a group of sarrukh stumbled upon shadow magic, and delved very deeply into it. They went so deep into it that their very forms changed (perhaps this was voluntary, perhaps it wasn't) into the form shadevari now have. Because of their power and ambition, they were imprisoned by a larger group of sarrukh. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 06:04:13
From Paul:- "The Sojourner (Vhostym) is a creature that I've called a githvyrik, another offshoot of the gith split. In my conception, the githvyrik numbered vastly fewer than either the githzerai or the githyanki, and while those races took to a single plane and established their societies and culture, the more powerful individualists among them at the time of the split did their own thing, travelling worlds and planes (like the Sojourner), taking up residence in the underdark, etc. In fact, calling the githvyrik a race is somewhat of a misnomer. I regard each of them as unique -- powerful and very old spellcasters, yes; derived from the same genetic stock as the other gith, yes; but otherwise quite different. For all intents and purposes, Vhostym might as well be solitary and, in fact, almost all githvyrik are."
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| Brimstone |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 05:23:40
-According to Paul Kemp The Sojurner was a Gith From BEFORE the racial split (Githyanki/Githzeai(sp)). Thus he was alive around the time of their rebellion from the Mind Flayers. Maybe alittle after. Still that was one old fart Cale gutted. 
-Now on topic, I have no clue. Maybe in 4E they would be Primordials? 
BRIMSTONE |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 20:36:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are people that really enjoyed those novels. I am not among their number.
Very... politic... way of putting it.
Anyhow, I was putting together some lore for those beings just a week or so ago - I hadn't realized they were used somewhere. Obviously they could NOT have been human, having pre-existed Shar and just about everyone else. Did those novels make them out to be human? 
Also, I think the Sojourner would have made a cool one of these, because of his power-level, but then I realized he wanted to "walk in the sun", which would be a little bizarre (although it would have fit his physical limitations to a tee). Was it ever revealed just what the heck he was?
The lore I was developing was a sort-of 2e/4e hybrid, and involved making them out to be the 'Dark Powers' behind Ravenloft (there are some fairly easy connections to make, and the CBoN alludes to there being 'Dark Powers' in FR as well - probably the same ones as RL). If they've been used in canon, though, then I'm glad I never got anywhere with that.
I also think Mask could have been one of these, but got a 'promotion' at some point (along with the rest of the beings those statues in the Fane of Shadows represent). Haven't read the second Cale trilogy yet, but according to Wiki, that fits with his gaining a piece of Shar at some point.
I guess it's time for me to check the Villain's Lorebook.
Edit: Cool! There's even a write-up for the Shadevari in there! |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 18:18:05
I remember liking them, but I don't remember how much solid information can be found on the Shadevari in them. I remember that the Shadevari were stalking heirs of the Shadow King, but I don't remember how they were able to do that, having been imprisoned by Azuth with the Shadowstar. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 17:55:45
My memory banks aren't accessing those particular files at the moment, so I cannot say (at the moment) whether or not I enjoyed them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 17:50:51
There are people that really enjoyed those novels. I am not among their number. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 17:38:40
Crypt of the Shadowking novel
Curse of the Shadowmage novel.
These novels are also sumerized in Heroes and Villan's Lorebooks.
Basically, they are the original users of shadow magic, which uses the Weave. It isn't the same as Shadow Weave magic. :) |
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