| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 10:12:57
I have been looking at lycanthropes and I am trying to decide what the exact purpose of the monstrous hit dice game mechanic attached to were creatures.
How in the description of creating a were-character you are suppose to add the base creatures hd to the characters hd. I won't repeat all the game mechanic here as I assume you are all familiar with the specifics.
I can only assume that this is designed so that low level races or characters that take the lycanthropic template are actually more powerful than the creature they are emulating. This makes sense as it would be embarrasing to be a were-bear with only 2 hd. The knock effect of this ruling though is that if a 7th level character become a were-bear he would have to take both the bears hd and the +2 la. This will massively boost his effective level and he will gain no more abilities for many levels.
Does this not seem a little unbalanced? adding 6 hd to a 1st level character is not the same as adding 6 hd to a 9th level character. Also a 9th level fighter gaining 6 levels of a monstrous creature will be significantly disadvantaged by the time he reaches 15th level, compared to a stright 15th fighter.
There is a system in the unearthed arcane for reducing level adjusts but this has no effect, and I suppose shouldn't have, on creature hd. Also there is no system similar to the savage species monstrous race rules that could turn lycantropic templates or any other template into a progressive raceial class.
I get off point a little.
The point of this is to discuss the reason for the hd.
So, as I see it if the purpose of hd is to create creatures of appropriate level and combat ability does the hd need to be applied to higher level characters? Would it not be reasonable to just apply level adjust to higher level characters? And then does that mean if you use the unearthed arcane rules then potentially not even that need be applied?
The mechanism I am considering is that if a pc's hd is equal or greater than the base creatures hd then it seems unnessecary to apply monstrous hd to that pc. The level adjust shoudl still be applied but with the option to buy it off as in the unearthed arcane.
Would this create a game imbalance? Is there a greater reason for applying the hd?
I have found precedent for this approach in the Faiths and Pantheons in which a 15th level druid were has only got 15hd. 
The next thing that occured to me was that different creatures have different hd and stat adjusts. The larger the creature the more the hd and the greater the stat adjusts, so I suppose this adds additional effective level adjust to the character to balance the stat adjusts. If this is the case then some other game mechanic is needed as the +2 LA for being a were-wolf is not the same as +2 LA for being a were-bear. So should I apply different LA for different races or everyone will want to be bitten by a were-dire polar bear, not those tiny were-boars. 
A lot of questions in this post I know, but the relative benefit of stat adjusts and a were-forms natural combat abilities are reduced every level the pc's go up so they can't really be considered a game constant can they? 
I shall stop writing now, much to your relief I am sure  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 13:13:21
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Since we are talking about MMF here is a question:
How often do you think a DM will allow you to turn into a Dragon before a real Dragon thinks your muscling in on his territory and comes and rips you a new one. A Dragon I note that has breath weapons, spells, damage resistance and all the good stuff?
That would be an interesting twist to teach a PC a lesson. But in the end, it depends on two things: The type of dragon angered and the motive for the dragon transformation. i.e. a gold dragon probably won't get mad if you used a dragon shape to save a village from a horde of humanoids, but he certainly will if you used it to destroy it yourself.
As for the use of huge size, it is, of course, not always the best option. Otherwise, most power gamers would have enlarge person-permanency. But in my campaigns, tight spaces (dungeon, underdark, etc) tend to be not more than half of the environments used. So at least half the time, being huge would be a great advantage.
Well a Gold Dragon might let you off, but I doubt he will be impressed with your methods. They are a proud race after all. A Metallic Dragon is not above killing over a matter of honour.
And I dont suppose a Chromatic Dragon of any sort would can for your reasons for pretending to be a Dragon  |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 13:10:00
Well I am not suggesting my pc's live underground, and yes most of the time space is not an issue.
However when combat starts it is usually in a defined space with limitations. Most combat seems to occur not just in dungeons but also sewers, buildings, ruins and even alleyways. Should you be lucky enough to be in the wilderness being huge has problems with sneaking, cover and even ease of flanking.
Then you get a DM who annoyed at your constant giant abuse decides the trees are too close together and you will have to squeeze between them |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 12:58:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Since we are talking about MMF here is a question:
How often do you think a DM will allow you to turn into a Dragon before a real Dragon thinks your muscling in on his territory and comes and rips you a new one. A Dragon I note that has breath weapons, spells, damage resistance and all the good stuff?
That would be an interesting twist to teach a PC a lesson. But in the end, it depends on two things: The type of dragon angered and the motive for the dragon transformation. i.e. a gold dragon probably won't get mad if you used a dragon shape to save a village from a horde of humanoids, but he certainly will if you used it to destroy it yourself.
As for the use of huge size, it is, of course, not always the best option. Otherwise, most power gamers would have enlarge person-permanency. But in my campaigns, tight spaces (dungeon, underdark, etc) tend to be not more than half of the environments used. So at least half the time, being huge would be a great advantage. |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 09:15:26
Since we are talking about MMF here is a question:
When is being huge ever the answer?
Think of the hassle of being large in a gygaxian dungeon, you can just about cope with corridors, but a huge character would constantly be suffering form the squeezing penalties.
And another question:
How often do you think a DM will allow you to turn into a Dragon before a real Dragon thinks your muscling in on his territory and comes and rips you a new one. A Dragon I note that has breath weapons, spells, damage resistance and all the good stuff? |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 09:08:20
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Okay, one of my players is using the Master of Many Forms in our current game so I've had to do a LOT of research on it. It is a headache of a class since the player spends most of his time going through all five monster manuals trying to figure out what he wants to change into. But he did get around the items not changing with him by saving up and buying wilding clasps for his items.
Save yourself the headache and invoke the 'Only creatures you know well' clause of the wild shape ability. Then your pc will only have a small selection of creatures to pick from, and speed your game significantly. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 23:53:11
Okay, one of my players is using the Master of Many Forms in our current game so I've had to do a LOT of research on it. It is a headache of a class since the player spends most of his time going through all five monster manuals trying to figure out what he wants to change into. But he did get around the items not changing with him by saving up and buying wilding clasps for his items.
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| Hawkins |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 23:14:27
The quick fix I came up with (for races other than dragons, since they are well detailed in the Draconomicon) is to give you one hit die of your creature type (i.e. d12 for undead, d10 for magical beasts, d8 for humaniods, etc) per LA point and ignoring the addition of racial HD/levels/etc. For instance, Thri-Kreen (XPH, pgs 14-15) start with a +2 LA and two levels of monsterous humanoid. Using my method, you get all of the Thri-Keen racial abilities (+2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, 2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, 4 Charisma; Spd 40 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; et cetera) and 2d8 HD (+2 LA x d8), but not the BAB, SVs, or skills of having taken 2 levels of monsterous humanoid. This gives your character a starting ECL of 3 for a lvl 1 Thri-Kreen [whatever class] instead of an ECL of 5. I find it to be pretty balanced, but you would have to still run it past your DM. It may not work as well for creatures with a high LA, like mind flayers; but I would be interested if anyone tried it to see how it turned out. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 23:09:02
Brimstone, thank you, thank you very much. This is going straight to my wall. |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 23:05:44
So true and so amazingly put! |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 23:02:01
-For you veiwing pleasure:
The 10 Commandments of Optimization
I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels.
II. Wieldest thou thy two-handed weapon with alacrity; but two weapons shalt thou not wield, excepting that thou hast a source of bonus damage such as Sneak Attack.
III. Doubt not the power of the Druid, for he is mighty.
IV. Avoid ye the temptation of Gauntlets of True Strike, for they shall lead thee astray down the Path of Non-Rule Cheese.
V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice.
VI. Makest thou no build with an odd number of fighter levels, for such things are not pleasing to the Spirits of Optimization.
VII. The Rules of 3.5 are paramount; invoke not the rules of 3.0 if a newer version be available.
VIII. When beseeching the Bretheren of Optimization, come thou not empty handed, lest they smite thee; rather, bringest thou thine own build, that they may offer suggestions and guidance.
IX. Invoke not "common sense," for it is not common.
X. Thou shalt call no build "The Ultimate X" unless his name be Pun-Pun, or thou shalt see thine "Ultimate" build topped by the Bretheren within five minutes of posting.
Yea, verily.
BRIMSTONE |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 22:57:42
I never knew what people were refering to when they said CoDzilla. I like it! |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 22:35:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Just use a shifter. 
BRIMSTONE
If you're talking about the PrC presented in Masters of the Wild, that class was so broken that there would be even worse game imbalance. That's why they changed it into the Master of Many Forms and took away the unlimited shapeshifting ability.
I think Brimmy was referring to the shifter race from Eber-whatsit. They're like really stripped-down versions of werecritters.
-You are correct Wooly.
-Master of Many Forms SUCK.  The first commandment is Thall shalt not lose caster levels for any reason whatso ever. Just play CoDzilla (Cleric or Druidzilla, or Core Only Druidzilla)
BRIMSTONE |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 22:27:04
I didn't mention the hd limit did. Sorry. Yeah even though you can technically be gargantuan in practice you can't due to the hd limit. OK so you can get SR but a dragon without a breath weapon? Wheres the fun? The other thing is every time I found a clarification on how wild shape works it is worse than the last time. Oh and the exact wording is extraordinary special qualities, so technically you wouldn't get frightful presence as it is a special ability, but thats just perdantic |
| Rozarius Darkblade |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 22:14:06
i had a player used it once he hated it he said he'd rather just play a straight druid or just use the dragon pc rules from draconoimcon |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 21:42:50
oh and btw, a dragon's immunity, SR and frightful presence are Ex abilities, only the breath is Su. Check out the stats of an ancient gold dragon (gargantuan), and ask yourself if it's strong for a level 15. It is TOO strong IMO.
Edit: nvm, you can't wild shade in a form with a numder of HD that exceed for own, an ancient gold dragon is 32 HD.... oops, my bad |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 21:38:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
I know it looks pretty good to start with but when you start to build a character you realise it is flawed. The first problem is that you need the wild shape ability which means you have to take druid to 5th level, there is an alternate path but its much longer, which gives you access to a very poor selection of spells. But when you become a MMF you do not get to improve these spells as you would with a normal PrC. So very quickly these 5 levels just become wasted. Then the wild shape ability is broken in that you cant use any of your equipment and until you reach a high level you get no access to the powers of the creature you have shape changed into. And when you do get access to some powers they are only ex abilities. Unfortunatly all the good abilites are sp or su. So if you wild shaped into a troll you would never get the regeneration ability, or after waiting 15 levels you can turn into a large dragon but not get a breath weapon, spell resistance, etc. Finally you have to wait so long to get decent forms or sizes that you end up as a 12th level character turning yourself into an ogre, which being a CR3 monster is not very exciting especially when you are butt naked and suffering a -2 penalty for using missized weaponary. The list goes on but you get the idea.
Sorry if that seems a bit of a tirade
But at level 10, you can change into a Gargantuan dragon, with one of the highest damage output available (beside Colossal of course). It must mean something for a lvl 15, even without the breath. The AC and ST are great too, better than anything a level 15 could offer (that I can think of). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 21:34:10
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Just use a shifter.
BRIMSTONE
If you're talking about the PrC presented in Masters of the Wild, that class was so broken that there would be even worse game imbalance. That's why they changed it into the Master of Many Forms and took away the unlimited shapeshifting ability.
I think Brimmy was referring to the shifter race from Eber-whatsit. They're like really stripped-down versions of werecritters. |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 21:25:17
I know it looks pretty good to start with but when you start to build a character you realise it is flawed. The first problem is that you need the wild shape ability which means you have to take druid to 5th level, there is an alternate path but its much longer, which gives you access to a very poor selection of spells. But when you become a MMF you do not get to improve these spells as you would with a normal PrC. So very quickly these 5 levels just become wasted. Then the wild shape ability is broken in that you cant use any of your equipment and until you reach a high level you get no access to the powers of the creature you have shape changed into. And when you do get access to some powers they are only ex abilities. Unfortunatly all the good abilites are sp or su. So if you wild shaped into a troll you would never get the regeneration ability, or after waiting 15 levels you can turn into a large dragon but not get a breath weapon, spell resistance, etc. Finally you have to wait so long to get decent forms or sizes that you end up as a 12th level character turning yourself into an ogre, which being a CR3 monster is not very exciting especially when you are butt naked and suffering a -2 penalty for using missized weaponary. The list goes on but you get the idea.
Sorry if that seems a bit of a tirade |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 21:15:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Just use a shifter.
BRIMSTONE
If you're talking about the PrC presented in Masters of the Wild, that class was so broken that there would be even worse game imbalance. That's why they changed it into the Master of Many Forms and took away the unlimited shapeshifting ability.
I had a player who wanted to play a MMF but after a little research it turns out it is an absolute turkey of a PrC. It was broken and the fix made it pointless. A monkey with a Wand of Polymorph is more effective a pc than a Druid turned MMF. Wah....
MMF does not look bad at first glance. Care to elaborate? |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 21:03:28
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Just use a shifter.
BRIMSTONE
If you're talking about the PrC presented in Masters of the Wild, that class was so broken that there would be even worse game imbalance. That's why they changed it into the Master of Many Forms and took away the unlimited shapeshifting ability.
I had a player who wanted to play a MMF but after a little research it turns out it is an absolute turkey of a PrC. It was broken and the fix made it pointless. A monkey with a Wand of Polymorph is more effective a pc than a Druid turned MMF. Wah.... |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 20:58:03
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Just use a shifter.
BRIMSTONE
If you're talking about the PrC presented in Masters of the Wild, that class was so broken that there would be even worse game imbalance. That's why they changed it into the Master of Many Forms and took away the unlimited shapeshifting ability. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 20:36:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
So if I remove the hd element of lycanthropes but still use the level adjust, and hence do not include the extra feats, skills, bab, etc, and just assume the level adjust is associated with the actual abilities of being a lycanthrope, ie alternate form, curse, heightened senses, etc, is that reasonable? If so does there need to be an additional adjustment based on the stat adjusts from the base creature?
Curse, I forgot about that. That ability can mess up your campaign ALOT .Basicaly, what's keeping him from turning all the other PC in werecreature?, or building an army (which he would not control) or whatever. I never used (or witnessed) a PC lycanthrope, so I can't say more than I already did. I'd go with afflicted only, not natural (for the major DR difference). Then once all the abilities are set (including stats) then you can compare with the other PC to determine LA. My guess is it's gonna be around 2-3.
|
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 20:18:33
So if I remove the hd element of lycanthropes but still use the level adjust, and hence do not include the extra feats, skills, bab, etc, and just assume the level adjust is associated with the actual abilities of being a lycanthrope, ie alternate form, curse, heightened senses, etc, is that reasonable? If so does there need to be an additional adjustment based on the stat adjusts from the base creature? |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 20:16:18
-Just use a shifter.
BRIMSTONE |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 14:52:45
Look at SKR's Curse of the Moon. It's a $5 pdf, and it addresses all the broken rules around lycanthropic PCs. It's something I can't recommend highly enough. Sean presents a lot of alternate rules that are designed with keeping lycanthropes both in balance and giving some nifty options for them. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 14:43:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Remember, that as you gain the Hit Dice, you also gain the Feats and Skills that come along with that bump as well. And you do *not* have to choose the same as the base creature. Basically, you're taking class levels of 'Animal'.
Of course, I realise that, but skill point are not influencial (for determining ECL) at all compared to AC, BAB, DR, SR and ability scores. Feats should have been added to the list, thank you for pointing that out Ashe.
And yes, I'm at school, but my laptop never leaves me  . |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 13:30:33
Remember, that as you gain the Hit Dice, you also gain the Feats and Skills that come along with that bump as well. And you do *not* have to choose the same as the base creature. Basically, you're taking class levels of 'Animal'. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 13:23:21
Oh what the heck, while I'm at it, school can wait  . If he is gonna be a fighter type, the most important aspect of balance IMO is BAB. He should never have a BAB higher than his ECL. For example, a were-bear has a BAB +5, so if hes a 1rst level fighter, his ECL should be AT LEAST 6. Then compare with the other PCs, and adjust his LA accordingly.
Consider HP (yes HP, not HD, because if hes a barbarian with d12 or a rogue with d6, you might not evaluate the HD boost by the template the same manner), AC, ability bonus, and other special ability. I also highly recommend to drop the DR 10/silver to 5/silver. 10 is damn good, especially for low level, and you don't want 3/4 of the encounters to be with silver weapons (or casters). Man, even 5 is powerful, really.
Finally, consider what I said earlier, don't make powerful PC just to please his ego. It will ruin your game.
Now, time for school,  |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 13:08:19
I once ran a game that reached epic level and my PC was a psion mindflayer. According to the MM, illithids are LA +7 and +8 HD, we started at level at high level (in fact I joined at high level), so my lvl 4 psion had an ECL of 19, it is absurd. I tried it, no way it's equivalent. Also, according to the Expanded Psionic handbook, a basic illithid (0 class level) is considered a lvl 9 psion. Even then, it makes him a caster level 13, it is no match for any class lvl 19. Imagine, level 19, 8d8 + 4d4 + 48 HP, it was awful.
Mind blast? DC 14-16, even fighters makes their saves easily. Brain extract? No way, my tentacles doesn't hit anything now, since I'm a low BAB/low STR class. Super high SR? We use power resistance instead (as in, SR for psionics), so arcane/divine spells are not affected.
So, what I did, I flushed the +ECL for the HD, but I kept the HD. I reduced the natural psion level to 7. My level 12 psion was now ECL 19, caster level 19. Of course it would have been impossible to join in a game below level 8, since even with a single class level, my ECL would have been 8 AND my mind blast and extract ability much more devastating. I received significantly weaker magic items than what the other PCs had to make up for the actual useful abilities (natural telepathy, dominate, levitate etc). I swear, it was perfectly fair and balanced.
In any case, my advice, forget the rules for ECL, make the character of equal power the the other players. If necessary, give new magic items/ability to the others . I can understand that if the PC beside me had a uber-powerful werebear ECL 8 (but in reality 13+), then my legit monk level 8 would look boring and weak indeed. What is more important than actual ECL is the balance between your PCs. Then, you can adjust the CR of the monsters you send, if you consider everything 2 CR below the actual CR, the xp is halved for example, so you could send CR two point higher than normal without giving them half a level of xp.
BUT, I must warn you, don't make powerful template JUST to be powerful. When I played a mindflayer, the character was already part of the story, and the role-play was incredible. It did not excape my notice that the werebear is the most powerful werecreature. It that the only motive? If it is so, then don't do it. He just want to play a werecreature for the fun of it? Than there are many others much less powerful. He want to be good? No problem, Selūne grant selfcontrol to her werecreature follower (see Selūnite Lychanthrope class feature for the Silverstar PrC in F&P). He doesn't even need to take the PrC IMO, just give him the ability for free, or even better, as a first level feat.
Hope that helps
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| Sian |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 11:41:46
a were with 6 racial hd and a LA+2 and a level 1 barb is ECL 9 ... ie. the same as a human level 9 barb |
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