| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 16:52:14
If you just want to point me to where to find the answers, that's okay, but if you're willing to just straight out answer, that's even better. 
1) In 3E Manshoon has the mask, in 2E he doesn't. What's the story there?
2) In 2E it talks about how the 10+ level VIPs (Fzoul, Manshoon, Sememnon) don't age. It gives possible theories, but no real answer. Is that somewhere else? |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 23:22:15
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Any idea when the vampire Manshoon was first made? DR Year wise.
1346. It's on page 48 of Cloak & Dagger. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 19:20:56
The Vampire-thing screwing up the mix makes a whole lot of sense.
The clone spell is triggered by 'death'. What you have there is basically a binary system - the gate is either 'open' (dead) or 'closed' (alive), which allows the next one in-line to activate (and closing the loop again).
A condition of 'undeath' got the switch stuck in the middle, and all sorts of weirdness resulted.
Something similar happened on Buffy - forgive me... it was only one of three episodes I ever watched; A new 'Slayer' is activated at the moment of another's death, but because of modern technology, Buffy was revived after dying, and after another Slayer was activated, thus providing the world with two living Slayers at the same time (and because I dislike Buffy, I enjoyed the episode, because it showed how pathetic Buffy really is - the new one was WAY better).
Hmph...
Thats just plain sad... I'm using Buffy:The Vampire Slayer as a precedent for the Forgotten Realms. Someone hit me with a blunt object, quick...
At least they had the 'vampire' theme in common...  |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 18:37:57
Any idea when the vampire Manshoon was first made? DR Year wise. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 24 Jan 2009 : 23:47:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Damian, your thoughts are VERY close to the no-longer-so-well-hidden truth. 
Not that I dare say more . . .
love,
THO
I have home-made chocolate truffles and ice-cream to hand - would that persuade you to say more?   
Just wondering
Damian |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 24 Jan 2009 : 17:00:08
Damian, your thoughts are VERY close to the no-longer-so-well-hidden truth.
Not that I dare say more . . .
love,
THO |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 24 Jan 2009 : 12:45:35
Re Mystra's intervention. In previous discussions I mused this might be the case, as it fits her desire to make magic more widespread, and what better way than to let the wizardly world know that Manshoon has some sort of 'super clone' spell that allows multiples of him to be active at the same time (therefore encouraging other archmages to get working on something similar very quickly to prolong their own lifespan and protect themselves from rivals etc), as well as distributing cached magics back into the world with 40+ Manshoons running around plundering magical caches. It also allows some of his underlings the opportunity to move up and out of his shadow and so they promote magic by becoming more powerful. Plus it draws others wizards into the fray as they defend themselves against the rampaging Manshoon's and/or seek to take advantage of what is happening, therefore more wizardly might being hurled around the Realms as mages go to and fro in search of Art.
Re Sage: BINGO! I think that the watcher is the actual Manshoon (the 'super-prime' if you want). He who sits in his extra-dimensional space as the puppet master pulling the strings of the (assumed) Manshoon prime who runs the Zhentarim. I would say the watcher is the one who set up the Brotherhood all those years ago, but soon realised that to have any real chance of making the changes to the the Realms to benefit himself, he had to disappear from public view and let a 'lesser' clone be the target of his enemies and also do all the drudge work (daily running of the Zhentarim) for him. Thus allowing the real Manshoon the opportunity to work on magics to further increase his Art, his abilities and work towards longevity/immortality without being interuppted every other tenday or so by a Thayan archmage/harper agent/troublesome priest of Bane trying to stop him/take over etc.
As I postulated in other threads, it wouldn't suprise me if Manshoon let loose his army of clones in an attempt to permantly stop Fzoul (and Xvim) from completely subverting the Zhentarim from his grasp and making them a religious group rather than one that answers to Manshoon. So he lets a few dozen clones free at the same time to blast at Fzoul and his allies, whilst he watches from his safehold and sees who supports Fzoul, who he and Orgauth run to after the fray, who in the ranks (priestly and magely) side with them/against them, what other external enemies attempt to take advantage of the fray etc etc etc. Plus it shows the world that if you go after Manshoon then you will be facing dozens of him not just one, which should make those ambitious wizards who want to replace/destroy him think again.
I would say that after Manshoon let loose his clones, then Mystra/Azuth or their agents manipulated his plan which resulted in the clones becoming free-willed, much to the suprise of Manshoon  , with the resultant chaos of clones running aroundplundering magics and fighting themselves and others etc So this forces Manshoon to rebuild his strength and work on better Art to ensure that next time he keeps control of his clones (therefore doing Mystra's will by expanding upon the Art).
Just my thoughts
Damian
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Jan 2009 : 01:29:00
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always assumed it was Khelben, since it looks like Khelben.
I always thought that too until, some years ago, I actually zoomed in on the image using some photoshop software in an effort to determine just who it might be. From that closer inspection I noticed that there's apparently some close physical similarities between the visual structure of the wizard's face and that of the vampire-like image in the right-most crystal ball.
Granted, the wizard's white-stripe in his beard suggests that it might be Khelben, but the visual similarities I referenced above also make me think that the wizard might be "a" Manshoon as well.
I wonder whether Steven and/or Eric have any thoughts on this?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jan 2009 : 00:19:04
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My theory is that the nature of the stasis clone spell basically creates a link between the caster and all the clones, and that having a vampire in this arcane matrix (if you will) caused some weird issues (perhaps a resonance issue, of some sort).
As Wooly said, this has been discussed in numerous threads, just do a search for Manshoon and see what comes up, its all great fun and a real shame that 3E kicked this plotline into touch.
Of course if you do have access to Cloak and Dagger, you will notice on the cover that there is an older looking wizard watching over three active Manshoon clones via crystal balls, hmmmm I wonder who the older wizard is
I don't think the awakening of 40+ clones was an accident
Cheers
Damian
I've always assumed it was Khelben, since it looks like Khelben.
Though... One of the results of the Manshoon Wars is that Manshoon's extensive caches of magic got split up 40 ways... That does spread magic around more, which is one of Mystra's goals. It's an interesting thing to think about. It seems a bit overt for Mystra, though, and too intricate to be a plot on someone else's part. I think that it was, in fact, an accident. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 23:56:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My theory is that the nature of the stasis clone spell basically creates a link between the caster and all the clones, and that having a vampire in this arcane matrix (if you will) caused some weird issues (perhaps a resonance issue, of some sort).
As Wooly said, this has been discussed in numerous threads, just do a search for Manshoon and see what comes up, its all great fun and a real shame that 3E kicked this plotline into touch.
Of course if you do have access to Cloak and Dagger, you will notice on the cover that there is an older looking wizard watching over three active Manshoon clones via crystal balls, hmmmm I wonder who the older wizard is
I don't think the awakening of 40+ clones was an accident
Cheers
Damian |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 23:21:52
And here's a bit from Ed on the Manshoon clones and their respective powers/levels and other specifc clone-related details:-
"With respect, folks, some of the discussion here is founded on incomplete understandings. The lower levels of various Manshoon clones aren't "mistakes." Manshoon's clones aren't created by the PHB clone spell, but rather by Manshoon's stasis clone spell (which has been detailed by Ed in 2nd Ed sources, and remember: FR lore isn't trumped by rules edition changes, so just because 3e and 3.5e have come along since then, it DOESN'T mean there isn't still a "stasis clone" spell used by Manshoon. Several scenes in Ed's novels detail the "awakening" of Manshoon's clones, which normally occurred only when the "previous" Manshoon died. The multiple clones, hidden all over the Realms (El has threatened Manshoon in published Realmslore that he knows where they all are), each have the levels, memories, etc. they had when created . . . so some of them are of FAR less power than 'more modern' Manshoons (so killing Manshoon DOES harm him). Manshoon adds new clones from time to time, but what happened with the Manshoon Wars was that all (or almost all) of the clones were awakened at once. Hence all the different levels, etc. To reiterate: there is no "transfer" of existing spells, memories, etc. to a newly awakened clone.
And yes, Manshoon IS the ultimate puppet master among non-liches and non-zulkirs, although there's something going on with Hesperdan that Ed hasn't revealed to us all, yet.
Not trying to rain on the parade here, just to correct things before too many assumptions in reasoning are made based on the wrong clone spell.
love,
THO" |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 23:18:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of us don't like the way the Manshoon Wars were so abruptly ended... We know that by the time the original commotion died down, there were at least 9 of the original 40+ left (we know of 9 that sought sanctuary with various powerful mages; more could have been doing stuff elsewhere). This was in the last 2E product. By the beginning of 3E, the Manshoon Wars were a footnote, and there were officially 3 left (Ed all but openly said that almost a dozen survived, though we don't know how, where, or -- most importantly -- in what form). And the Shattered Realms apparently only has 1... One of the best potential plots ever, and they kicked it to the curb... 
Well, the FRCG mentioned that the Manshoon clone that was hiding out in Undermountain was destroyed during the Spellplague. There was the other clone that remained with the Zhentarim too -- of which we know nothing. So, along with the clone as the Night King, we know there are/were three "official" Manshoon clones running around. And, as Ed did say, there were actually more than the "official three" Manshoon clones still at large as of 3e. What happened to them in the post-Spellplague period remains to be seen, if at all.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 23:13:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Disregard the 3E artwork. Some of it was... creative, to say the least.
Kuje has addressed this point, so I'll leave it at that.
quote:
As for Semmy and Manshoon... The 2E boxed set Ruins of Zhentil Keep detailed a spell Manshoon used (at least, he used to use it; after the Manshoon Wars, I don't know if he continues to use it, though I think he would) called stasis clone.
He probably would. Ed has said in the past that Manshoon liked to add new clones from time to time.
quote:
He's also cast the spell for Sememmon more than once; I believe either Krash or Sage Schend commented that the current Sememmon was clone number 6 for him. Whether or not he's got a copy of that spell hasn't been discussed that I can recall, though I think it likely he has a copy.
Indeed. His body is a clone created by Manshoon and is in fact the sixth one that this evil archmage has bestowed upon Sememmon in their long association.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 20:30:55
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Which could very well have caused the problem.
I don't think the additional active Manshoon would be an issue, since he's apparently been active for quite some time. Since Manshoon has been doing this routine for a while, if that was going to be a factor, it should have happened before. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 19:30:52
Re: Fzoul
The Chosen of Bane template has the line 'immune to aging', same as Chosen of Mystra. So that explains his youthful good looks and vitality. |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 19:25:19
Which could very well have caused the problem. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 18:52:25
Or it could have been a thing where the undead nature of the vampire caused some resonance, and instead of just one Manshoon waking up, this resonance caused that wake-up signal to fracture and go to all of them.
Another thought just occurred to me. The other clones should not have known what happened to the then-active one... Mayhaps Manshoon, realizing that Fzoul and Orgauth planned to simply kill each clone as it showed up, attempted to forcibly effect a transfer of conciousness to a clone, and this caused -- or was another factor in -- the multiple awakening.
As an aside, Ed has implied more than once that there's an earlier clone active, too -- an additional active Manshoon, that was hiding in the background when the known one was slain by Fzoul and Orgauth did their thing. |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 18:44:42
Interesting...
Muahahaha!
*runs to laboratory, cackling all the way* |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 18:20:48
That makes a lot of sense to me, especially if the vampire clone was out there first. As long as manshoon (prime) was alive, the manshoon B (vampire) wouldn't screw things up, but when he died, the "is manshoon alive?" checking part of the spell would be thrown into a loop.
Manshoon (prime) is alive, spell checks in and sees 1 living clone, 1 undead clone, reads the undead as if it's just another dead clone (all the clones leading up to prime). Does not awaken new clone.
Manshoon (prime) dies, spell checks in and sees prime is dead, assigns new prime, in error, to the undead manshoon.
Spell checks in and sees prime is dead, awakens new clone, attempts to reassign prime, but undead clone doesn't release prime status.
Spell checks in and sees prime is dead, awakens new clone, attempts to reassign prime, but undead clone doesn't release prime status.
Spell checks in and sees prime is dead, awakens new clone, attempts to reassign prime, but undead clone doesn't release prime status.
Spell checks in and sees prime is dead, awakens new clone, attempts to reassign prime, but undead clone doesn't release prime status.
Spell checks in and sees prime is dead, awakens new clone, attempts to reassign prime, but undead clone doesn't release prime status.
... Yeah, got ourselves a loop. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 18:04:21
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
That's when the spell glitched and he got downloaded into all the clones, right? By 4E there's only one left, it has pointy teeth and it's in Westgate, right?
Yup, you've got the basics of the Manshoon Wars.
A lot of us don't like the way the Manshoon Wars were so abruptly ended... We know that by the time the original commotion died down, there were at least 9 of the original 40+ left (we know of 9 that sought sanctuary with various powerful mages; more could have been doing stuff elsewhere). This was in the last 2E product. By the beginning of 3E, the Manshoon Wars were a footnote, and there were officially 3 left (Ed all but openly said that almost a dozen survived, though we don't know how, where, or -- most importantly -- in what form). And the Shattered Realms apparently only has 1... One of the best potential plots ever, and they kicked it to the curb...
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
What caused the glitch?
Ah, now that is a question! It's never been revealed... There are a couple of interesting points, though... The knowledge of the clones was only updated by physical contact with the original -- but somehow, all 40+ clones knew upon waking that Fzoul and Lord Orgauth were responsible for the previous Manshoon being slain. Another interesting item (possibly just a misprint, though) is that on the timeline in Cloak & Dagger, the awakening of the vampire clone is listed before -- and separate from -- the Manshoon Wars.
My theory is that the nature of the stasis clone spell basically creates a link between the caster and all the clones, and that having a vampire in this arcane matrix (if you will) caused some weird issues (perhaps a resonance issue, of some sort). It's also possible that something about the combination of spells used to slay the then-active Manshoon was also a factor. Either way, my theory is that the vampire and its undead energies being in the mix caused a sort of fracturing effect, and that's why all the Manshoons woke up. |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 17:27:51
That's when the spell glitched and he got downloaded into all the clones, right? By 4E there's only one left, it has pointy teeth and it's in Westgate, right?
What caused the glitch?
In Ruins of Zhentil Keep it mentions that they always appear the same age. So, assuming Sem and Manshoon are clone hopping and using change self and that Fzoul is chosen of bane, I guess it all makes sense. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 17:24:35
Pretty much and on May 23rd, 2004's reply, Ed implied that it could be a look for one of Manshoon's clones but the original doesn't usually wear a mask.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
1) In 3E Manshoon has the mask, in 2E he doesn't. What's the story there?
Most likely just artistic license.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 17:17:59
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
If you just want to point me to where to find the answers, that's okay, but if you're willing to just straight out answer, that's even better.
1) In 3E Manshoon has the mask, in 2E he doesn't. What's the story there?
2) In 2E it talks about how the 10+ level VIPs (Fzoul, Manshoon, Sememnon) don't age. It gives possible theories, but no real answer. Is that somewhere else?
Disregard the 3E artwork. Some of it was... creative, to say the least.
I don't know about Fzoul not aging, though it's possible that he's either found some longevity magics, or it's a gift from Bane.
As for Semmy and Manshoon... The 2E boxed set Ruins of Zhentil Keep detailed a spell Manshoon used (at least, he used to use it; after the Manshoon Wars, I don't know if he continues to use it, though I think he would) called stasis clone. To sum up that spell: it creates an exact physical and mental duplicate of a person (not necessarily the caster). That clone is in stasis, so the "trying to kill the original" thing from the regular clone spell isn't a factor. After the spell is cast, the original person can physically touch the clone, and the clone's memories and experience (including XP and levels) are updated to the same as the original. When the original later dies, the clone activates.
So Manshoon doesn't seem to age because he creates his clones while physically younger, and then when the current body gets too old, he lets it die in spellbattle so a physically younger clone activates. This also means he's more willing to do crazy stuff in battle, since he knows that win or lose, he's still going to be around.
He's also cast the spell for Sememmon more than once; I believe either Krash or Sage Schend commented that the current Sememmon was clone number 6 for him. Whether or not he's got a copy of that spell hasn't been discussed that I can recall, though I think it likely he has a copy.
I trust you are familiar with the Manshoon Wars? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 17:06:39
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
1) In 3E Manshoon has the mask, in 2E he doesn't. What's the story there?
Most likely just artistic license. |
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