| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jimbobx |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 13:13:20
I need some rough travelling times. Just something to read from a signpost if the PC's ask me.
How far from:
Mirabar to Xantharls keep along the long road?
Mirabar to Grunwald along the long road?
Mirabar to Waterdeep " "?
Also would it be mentioned in miles or days travel on a sign post?
Cheers folks.
p.s playing 3.5. |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 18:38:31
Here's an additional data point on travel speeds. I'm currently reading The Middle Ages by Morris Bishop. I just came across the following quote:
quote:
A mounted convoy or a good walker would cover from twenty to twenty-four miles a day, and travelers in a hurry could go twice as fast. In 1188 a courier brought a bull from Rome to Canterbury, covering about 1,200 miles, with twenty-five days to cross the Channel, and in 1316 news of Pope John XXII's election was carried over 800 miles, from Lyons to York, in ten days.
The courier in 1188 averaged 48 miles per day. I think it's safe to assume that, as a courier, he would have been traveling on horseback, except during the Channel crossing, and changing horses regularly.
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| ErskineF |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 20:08:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Can you suggest a good map of Cormyr? 
The one that came with the Cormyr accessory is probably your best bet, but I don't know. The map with the Dalelands accessory had a lot of errors on it. I've never examined the Cormyr map to see how accurate it is. It would be a good start, though. You could check it against the maps in the box set and the ones in VGtC. |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 19:05:45
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Yeah its a 3rd ed book, but since when does an illustration have a scale? 
Since it's an illustration of a map? 
Seriously, I've never tried to use those maps for determining distances, but I'm not surprised that they're not to scale. Third edition gave short shrift to maps, just as they did to lore.
 OK good one 
Can you suggest a good map of Cormyr? |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 16:45:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Yeah its a 3rd ed book, but since when does an illustration have a scale?
Since it's an illustration of a map?
Seriously, I've never tried to use those maps for determining distances, but I'm not surprised that they're not to scale. Third edition gave short shrift to maps, just as they did to lore. |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:41:55
Yeah its a 3rd ed book, but since when does an illustration have a scale? |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:29:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Has anyone else noticed a significant variance in the scales on different maps? I tried to work out the distances in Cormyr and the Dales from the large map with the FRCS and on the smaller specific map inside.
Are you talking about third edition? Those aren't maps, they're illustrations. :/ |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:18:18
Has anyone else noticed a significant variance in the scales on different maps? I tried to work out the distances in Cormyr and the Dales from the large map with the FRCS and on the smaller specific map inside. |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 10:34:59
Don't forget load carriage factors into all that walking too. A person with little more than a 2 lb napsack and a walking stick will travel much faster and be much fresher than the same person in greaves, a chain hauberk and carrying a pack, a sword and a shield. |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 07:26:33
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
It's worthwhile to do the math to see into how many miles per hour (or kilometers per xyz vibrations of a quartz crystal in a vacuum) the "speed" of 3rd edition D&D characters and critters translate.
Three miles per hour is about right, especially when averaged out over a full day of walking. Go to trailjournals.com and see how far people generally hike in a day. Twenty miles is considered very good. Thirty is stupendous.
quote:
It took many, many decades of bodily wear and tear for me to come to walk as slowly as super-buff ("able-bodied") D&D adventurers (and their horses or riding dogs).
Buffness doesn't matter as much as length of stride. If you're tall, your stride is longer and you'll cover more ground with each step. I'm not in nearly as good a shape as I was when I was twenty, but I can still cover about the same distance in an hour. (I would just be a lot more tired and sore after a full day of hiking.)
quote:
Of course, it's possible that I'm just a barbarian (oops -- I'm literate, so there goes that theory), but it's more likely that no one ever did the math before the books were published to see just how ridiculously slow D&D characters (and their mounts) move in time periods greater than six seconds.
It's also possible that you're an outlier, and not a basis for establishing an average number. From Wikipedia:
quote:
An average walking speed is about 4 to 5 km/h (2 to 3 mph), although this depends heavily on factors such as height, weight, age, terrain, surface, load, culture, and fitness.
Congrats. :)
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| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 05:31:03
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
No, not "miles" except perhaps post-Spellplague.
According to Ed's notes, speaking of the Heartlands and the Sword Coast North and Moonsea North:
Signposts are rare and few, and almost always express a distance in terms of so many days of travel. For an able-bodied traveler afoot, ...
(snip)
So saith Ed. If you'd like to quiz him more directly on such matters, post questions in his thread in the Chamber of Sages and I'll relay them to him.
love,
THO
HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH "WAYSTONES:"
It's worthwhile to do the math to see into how many miles per hour (or kilometers per xyz vibrations of a quartz crystal in a vacuum) the "speed" of 3rd edition D&D characters and critters translate. It took many, many decades of bodily wear and tear for me to come to walk as slowly as super-buff ("able-bodied") D&D adventurers (and their horses or riding dogs). Of course, it's possible that I'm just a barbarian (oops -- I'm literate, so there goes that theory), but it's more likely that no one ever did the math before the books were published to see just how ridiculously slow D&D characters (and their mounts) move in time periods greater than six seconds.
Wizards did, however, do the math on missile weapon ranges (and sent me a nasty e-mail when I pointed out how short those ranges were -- if 3rd edition missile ranges applied in the real world, the English would have lost -- badly! -- at Crecy and Agincourt). I use AD&D ranges for almost all missile weapons in my game, and that change makes for some exciting battles. Doubling the number of feet per round that characters and critters move would probably also soup up combats. The chart of daily distances that characters and critters can move to which I refer in my prior post on Tito's Trading Post is fairly accurate based on historical examples, because not taken into consideration in most D&D overland distance calculations are the hours needed to seek out and make and break camp every day, feed and water mounts, etc. Fortunately for adventurers, Elminster has told Ed Greenwood about a world which has inns and taverns a "day" or so apart on major trails and roads.
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| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 04:30:45
Tito's Trading Post, for the Conan RPG, has several VERY useful pages (18-21) on travel speeds, how much horses eat, drink and poop, etc. There are some errors in the text (theoretically a horse traveling full speed needs to spend about 22 hours per day eating, drinking and pooping, with the other two hours presumably reserved for walking and sleeping), but they are still very useful. The Conan RPG is an OGL game, but I am not going to weed out what is and what ain't open game content from those four pages and type them up here; I'll just say they are worth a look-see.
(Apropos of open game content, it is possible to buy a "Calishite lamp" from Tito, but there's no explanation as to how he obtained them since the Conan RPG is set on Earth, and Calimshan is, of course, on Toril!)
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| scererar |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 22:00:27
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
No, not "miles" except perhaps post-Spellplague.
According to Ed's notes, speaking of the Heartlands and the Sword Coast North and Moonsea North:
Signposts are rare and few, and almost always express a distance in terms of so many days of travel. For an able-bodied traveler afoot, or a heavily-laden wagon drawn by mules. So, about twenty miles on a good road and gentlly-rolling or flat terrain, down to about twelve miles for mountain passes or heavy forest with many fords.
Stated distances such as "half a day" and "more than a half-day" appear for nearby places, but if a destination is four and a half days away, the signpost will generally say five. (People feel good if they arrive early, displeased if they are "slow" compared to the signage.)
By the way, wooden signs are rare, wooden posts less so, and large standing stones with informative writing painted and graven on them are most common. They are known as "wayposts," and (unless carried off by brigands, or during a war to confuse an advancing foe) will always be present when trails or roads meet or fork or enter swamps or ford rivers.
So saith Ed. If you'd like to quiz him more directly on such matters, post questions in his thread in the Chamber of Sages and I'll relay them to him.
love,
THO
In my daily readings of Realmslore from all editions and novels, I came across something after reading this post. I just finished up the Annotated Elminster series and in Temptation of Elminster, ED (or at least after editing) used miles to describe distance. Additionally, I just started re-reading the Last Mythal trilogy and again came across miles being utilized to determine distance. This was also in addition to rides being used and specific numbers of days travel. So, while I agree that miles would not be a method of measuring distance in the realms, it sure is not consistent in established lore, and that is not even getting into pre or post spellplague conspiracy theories. |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 20:31:54
quote:
Originally posted by rjfraswhat edition is that? because in 3.5 overland travel at a normal pace for a human (carrying a light load) is listed at 24 miles while a wagon or cart is listed at 16 miles a day... and if that same human is carrying a medium load, then they move at the same speed as the wagon, 16 miles a day.
I believe The Savage Frontier was first edition, but the same information can be found in the City of Splendors box set, which is second edition.
I recommend going with the mileage from the FR Atlas, and calculating the travel times from it using the info in the PHB. If you're going to post the distance in number of days, then you might want to add in a zero day for every X number of days of travel. Twenty-four miles per day for five straight days would put a huge strain on even the most able-bodied person. I think a good rule of thumb would be one day of rest for every five days of foot travel, and one for every three days of horse travel. So a trip that would, theoretically, take twenty days on foot if the person didn't stop to rest, would actually take twenty-three days.
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| rjfras |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 17:26:06
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobx
I need some rough travelling times. Just something to read from a signpost if the PC's ask me.
How far from:
Mirabar to Xantharls keep along the long road?
Mirabar to Grunwald along the long road?
Mirabar to Waterdeep " "?
I found this answer to your last question, there:
quote:
The Major trade routes are listed with the time it takes outbound to reach the final destination and major stops along the way (based on the DMG rules for Wagon travel). [...] For foot movement along the roads and trails (under an average load), multiply travel times by 1.25. For light horse travel, multiply travel times by 0.4.
[...]
Long Road: Waterdeep to Mirabar. Red Larch in 7 days, Triboar in 13,
Longsaddle in 18, and Mirabar in 26 days. (The Savage Frontier, p.7: "Trade Routes")
Mirabar to Waterdeep = 26 d by wagon,
= 32.5 d on foot, or
= 10.4 d on horseback.
Hadn't noticed that before. That's odd - historically, infantry were able to outpace cavalry over any period longer than about 3 days. It's just not possible to drive a horse hard for that length of time. They'll either come up lame or just refuse to go on. A human, on the other hand, will just keep going.
And the idea that a wagon can move faster than an unencumbered human is ridiculous.
what edition is that? because in 3.5 overland travel at a normal pace for a human (carrying a light load) is listed at 24 miles while a wagon or cart is listed at 16 miles a day... and if that same human is carrying a medium load, then they move at the same speed as the wagon, 16 miles a day |
| BEAST |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 13:43:10
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Hadn't noticed that before. That's odd - historically, infantry were able to outpace cavalry over any period longer than about 3 days. It's just not possible to drive a horse hard for that length of time. They'll either come up lame or just refuse to go on. A human, on the other hand, will just keep going.
Since the travel info was stated in the book in terms of time, and not distance, I don't know how hard the author was intending for the travel to be. Perhaps they're talking about pushing the horse hard for several hours, and then completely resting it for a similar period each day?
quote:
And the idea that a wagon can move faster than an unencumbered human is ridiculous.
Perhaps they're talking about average speed. The wagon may be able to continue moving, by switching out the working horses actually doing the hauling, long past the time the humans feel the need to stop and rest.
Don't know. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 23:26:38
quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobx
I need some rough travelling times. Just something to read from a signpost if the PC's ask me.
How far from:
Mirabar to Xantharls keep along the long road?
Mirabar to Grunwald along the long road?
Mirabar to Waterdeep " "?
I found this answer to your last question, there:
quote:
The Major trade routes are listed with the time it takes outbound to reach the final destination and major stops along the way (based on the DMG rules for Wagon travel). [...] For foot movement along the roads and trails (under an average load), multiply travel times by 1.25. For light horse travel, multiply travel times by 0.4.
[...]
Long Road: Waterdeep to Mirabar. Red Larch in 7 days, Triboar in 13,
Longsaddle in 18, and Mirabar in 26 days. (The Savage Frontier, p.7: "Trade Routes")
Mirabar to Waterdeep = 26 d by wagon,
= 32.5 d on foot, or
= 10.4 d on horseback. |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 18:02:51
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Just a quick follow-up, since I find it interesting, from the same biography: Arab-Swahili slave and ivory caravans traveling between Lake Tanganyika and the Lualaba River, a distance of 340 miles, averaged over 3 months making the journey.
Or less than four miles a day, average, over a known distance.
Does it indicate how often they spent a full day without moving, whether for rest or conducting business?
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| ErskineF |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 01:31:14
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
The point being, a journey from Mirabar to Waterdeep, for example, at roughly 562 miles, probably can't be made by simply traveling 20 miles per day along good roads.
I recommend reading some of the hiker journals at http://www.trailjournals.com to get an idea of how variable travel times can be for foot travel. "Able-bodied" takes in a lot of territory, from athletes to the average Joe. In DM terms, a person would be considered able-bodied if his Con were 10 or above. When you add the differences in length of stride and personality type (type A or B), the variability can be quite large, especially over long distances. The hike on the Appalachian Trail from Springer Mt to Katahdin can take from 3 months to over six months, depending on who is doing the hike. It might be possible to give the distance between two neighboring towns in terms of the time of travel, but such a number applied to the trip between Mirabar and Waterdeep would be completely meaningless.
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| The Hooded One |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 02:45:17
Yes, sorry Damian, I was speaking of open "roads through the wilderlands" areas. In the areas patrolled out of Waterdeep, and all of Cormyr except some of the most remote western mountain spots and the easternmost "almost in the Dales" north-of-Hullack lands, signage is good, frequent, and a lot more detailed and explicit (and wooden signposts and signs are common).
love,
THO |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 23:43:51
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Signposts are rare and few, and almost always express a distance in terms of so many days of travel. By the way, wooden signs are rare, wooden posts less so, and large standing stones with informative writing painted and graven on them are most common. They are known as "wayposts," and (unless carried off by brigands, or during a war to confuse an advancing foe)
Thank you Good Lady for the response.
Would I take it that is 'civilised' settled areas (Cormyr,Sembia, Amn etc) signage is more common?
Cheers
Damian |
| Faraer |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 23:11:48
Well, most travellers are human, dwarves have their own trail markers, and gnomes, everyone forgets about them. |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 22:10:28
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
For an able-bodied traveler afoot
Is that an able-bodied human? Do the signposts ignore the existence of halflings, gnomes, and dwarves?
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| The Hooded One |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 20:30:30
No, not "miles" except perhaps post-Spellplague.
According to Ed's notes, speaking of the Heartlands and the Sword Coast North and Moonsea North:
Signposts are rare and few, and almost always express a distance in terms of so many days of travel. For an able-bodied traveler afoot, or a heavily-laden wagon drawn by mules. So, about twenty miles on a good road and gentlly-rolling or flat terrain, down to about twelve miles for mountain passes or heavy forest with many fords.
Stated distances such as "half a day" and "more than a half-day" appear for nearby places, but if a destination is four and a half days away, the signpost will generally say five. (People feel good if they arrive early, displeased if they are "slow" compared to the signage.)
By the way, wooden signs are rare, wooden posts less so, and large standing stones with informative writing painted and graven on them are most common. They are known as "wayposts," and (unless carried off by brigands, or during a war to confuse an advancing foe) will always be present when trails or roads meet or fork or enter swamps or ford rivers.
So saith Ed. If you'd like to quiz him more directly on such matters, post questions in his thread in the Chamber of Sages and I'll relay them to him.
love,
THO |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 16:49:43
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
I saw this thread and thought it had something to do with temporal displacement.
It does. It's about temporal and spatial displacement via pedestrian or equine travel.
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| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 16:40:52
I saw this thread and thought it had something to do with temporal displacement. |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 14:15:01
quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobx
I need some rough travelling times. Just something to read from a signpost if the PC's ask me.
Using the FR Atlas, I came up with...
Mirabar to Xantharls = 36 miles
Mirabar to Grunwald = 98 miles
Mirabar to Waterdeep = 562 miles
quote:
Also would it be mentioned in miles or days travel on a sign post?
Miles, since not every traveler would move at the same rate.
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