| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Brix |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 11:34:04
Manyy of you don't like the 4E Realms because of the things that happened to one of the mosti iconic FR gods: Mystra.
However, Spellplague could be a nice campaign that may end in the glorious return of the godess of magic.
Maybe you already had a similiar idea you wish to share.
IMO it's impossible the Mystra stays dead for a number of reasons
* Gods in th FR are made by beliefers. Mystra has a lot worshippers. She should have immediatly sprung back to life after being killed, only because there are so many beliefers. Obviously something prevents her from returning. What could that be an how could that be undone?
* There are many examples of dead gods returning from the dead, so why shouldn't Mystra, who is a bigger player than Aumanathor, or others. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 18:43:39
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-It is my personal belief that Mystra, in and of herself, is fine. A deity of magic, who is magic, no real problem there. I'd prefer there to be no deity of magic, and have Mystra just a powerful entity (upgrading Azuth in the process), but that this isn't the way things are doesn't bother me too much. It is when additional layers begin being laid on that my dislike grows. The most powerful deity...In theory, more powerful than the overdeity of the Crystal Sphere...The power behind Arcane spells and Divine spells...
I can understand that. My interpretation wasn't that she was the most powerful (maybe the most overworked - ANOTHER mortal wants to cast a spell?!?), so I never saw it that way. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 18:41:14
quote:
Originally posted by Brix
<snip>
Even former heroes such as Elminster, the Seven Sisters or Khelben are accused of being doombringers.
<snip>
Since most are  , it doesn't happen that often. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 16:46:12
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I can understand your dislike. She was set up as the medium by which mortals could access magic, much like the Towers of High Sorcery were the access point for Magic in Krynn (okay, not the same, since Krynn's was more of societal laws than divine intervention...).
My issue is that it's a story element that adds flavor to the Realms that makes the world different from Oerth, Krynn or Eberron. By removing it, every world begins to look the same and loses any reason to visit.
-It is my personal belief that Mystra, in and of herself, is fine. A deity of magic, who is magic, no real problem there. I'd prefer there to be no deity of magic, and have Mystra just a powerful entity (upgrading Azuth in the process), but that this isn't the way things are doesn't bother me too much. It is when additional layers begin being laid on that my dislike grows. The most powerful deity...In theory, more powerful than the overdeity of the Crystal Sphere...The power behind Arcane spells and Divine spells... |
| Brix |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 14:49:11
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
[quote]Originally posted by Brix
So how would the chruch of Mystra develope after the Year of Blue Fire?
1) To the commoners such a magical disaster is to be blamed somehow TO Mystra.
And they could hope no one ever more will be in control of so much power! Maybe this hope can be enough to prevent the ascending of a new god of magic.
Yeha! This is an excellent roleplaying opportunity. Imagine the "cleric" guy of the party trying to convince people to find their faith again, while they blame his goddess to be the cause of the disaster!
In fact it might be dangerous in the Shattered Realms to cast magic, not only because of the side effects of dabbling with magic but also because of the people who might chase you with their forks.
Even former heroes such as Elminster, the Seven Sisters or Khelben are accused of being doombringers.
These would be dark Realms indeed. And the players are the points that bring light again... |
| Brix |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 14:31:22
Precautions: Given the fact, that the Weave was always true (and will be for the future) how about this?:
* GHotR states that the weave "bursted", but at some significant points it imploded, much like a star that turns into a black hole. At these places the magic of the weave was sucked away into nodes of power. These could be items, people or places. If you can control these nodes you get some of the power it holds. As a result good and evil power groups are searching for these nodes to either corrupt them (Shar) or to collect them (good guys)in order to revive Mystra (take it as a title that maybe given to a mortal like Ariel "Midnight" Manx).
What could these nodes be? Maybe some have historical relevance.
If you still use 3E rules or PathfinderRPG limit the power of magic for the players by employing wild magic, dead magic, Binders, or simply by restricting spellcasting, until they find vestiges of Mystra's power.
* When the Chosen of Mystra were stripped of their power, the magic of Mystra instantly was transformed to other people or creatures. These are partly known to the church, and protected at all costs (some may even be babys)
Maybe one of the players is a chosen? Something like a Spellfire Wielder. Or the Chosen template broken down to 10 levels taken as a class?
Ideas?
* Returned Abeir has the answer. Somewhere on the new continent there is an immense source of magical power (maybe hidden away by Mystril long ago). The PCs must travel to this strange new land to find the source and use it for the return of Mystra (and while unleashing it, maybe even the Weave) |
| Arioch |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 13:37:19
quote:
Originally posted by Brix
So how would the chruch of Mystra develope after the Year of Blue Fire?
Wouldn't it (successfully) try to persuade the people that magic without the weave which is governed by Mystra does terrible things with the land and the creatures that live within?
Wouldn't there be enough faithful people that at least a less powerfull Mystra would pop into existance.
Indeed they would try, not necessarily they would be successful.
Some ideas:
1) To the commoners such a magical disaster is to be blamed somehow TO Mystra.
And they could hope no one ever more will be in control of so much power! Maybe this hope can be enough to prevent the ascending of a new god of magic.
2) Ok, the clergy is right, so what? They spoke of a dead god, unable to prevent the loss of so many innocent people. Unable to control/protect the Weave.
3) They are right but Shar is preventing anyone to become the next God of Magic (as someone suggested)...
All this said, maybe someone could really take up the legacy of the Lady... But with a radical change from what Mystra was. After all, no more Weave.
quote:
Is Mystra floating in the Astral Plane like other dead gods?
Aren't there some ancient precautions that store some of her power somewhere (this already worked during the ToT)?
Who knows... maybe! Interesting questions, if I may say.
"Ancient precautions" ... well! A nice hook for starting an epic quest:
The "precautions" were somehow damaged by the SpellPlague. They remained dormant until PC discover them but are no longer capable of resurrecting Mystra. All the PCs can do is to use them ... even for themselves, becoming powerful enough to claim part of Mystra's lost divinity!
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| Brix |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 13:03:06
So how would the chruch of Mystra develope after the Year of Blue Fire?
Wouldn't it (successfully) try to persuade the people that magic without the weave which is governed by Mystra does terrible things with the land and the creatures that live within?
Wouldn't there be enough faithful people that at least a less powerfull Mystra would pop into existance.
Is Mystra floating in the Astral Plane like other dead gods?
Aren't there some ancient precautions that store some of her power somewhere (this already worked during the ToT)?
|
| Arioch |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 12:05:24
Does Oerth still exist?
And... are Faerun and Eberron still different?
Back to the topic: never had any problem with Mystra. I used her differently in each of my campaings: sometimes I put her on the spotlight, sometimes I didn't used her.
But ... I do not like the idea of Mystra resurrected. This said, I do not mean that in 1480+ we cannot have another deity of the Arcane Source Power.
(I like some of the other ideas of dwarvenranger, by the way)
A story about the "death" (disappearance?) of Ao (As other here on Candlekeep, I don't like the Ao idea and I see the Spellplague as a good opportunity to remove it) dragging in the disaster Mystra, while she struggle to save the Realms and the Weave sounds better to me.
Maybe Mystra was about to succeceed, (maybe with some nice side effect as to unravel the Shadow Weave) but then Cyric and Shar...
A last consideration: Less gods, more Demigod epic destinies open for player! Don't you think? (WOW I can be an Exarch as Nobanion!) 
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| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 04:29:35
I can understand your dislike. She was set up as the medium by which mortals could access magic, much like the Towers of High Sorcery were the access point for Magic in Krynn (okay, not the same, since Krynn's was more of societal laws than divine intervention...).
My issue is that it's a story element that adds flavor to the Realms that makes the world different from Oerth, Krynn or Eberron. By removing it, every world begins to look the same and loses any reason to visit.
WotC is starting to follow the MMORPG model too closely, I believe, in that each 'world' is becoming like a 'server' on the MMORPG games. 'You like roleplaying? Go to the Faerūn server. Want PvP action? Sign on to Eberron! Just questing? Visit Oerth.'
Meanwhile, each server is identical except for how the players interact. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 04:07:52
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Seriously? When was the last novel that Mystra was a major character? Trial of Cyric (1998)? And Elminster is pretty much only mentioned in Ed's books nowadays. So how is this 'overexposure'?
Ah, don't mind me. I'm just in a ranty mood...
-Mystra has an aura of importance built into her by the setting's creator that I find to be a source of consternation, as opposed to something I like. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 02:39:16
I have no problem with Shar occasionally re-asserting herself and her portfolio, as it tends to reflect how the power of a god can rise and fall as time progresses.
But the continued focus is when I start to think that such elements of the Realms deviate a little [or, sometimes, a lot] from what they were before. And that's usually when I start to lose some interest in that element.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 02:33:42
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I agree--I've never had a problem with Mystra, and I was fine with Shar when she literally was kept "in the darkness."
Oh, ditto that. Shar worked better in the background. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 02:17:45
quote:
(Now, about Ariel Manx of Deepingdale? Isn't so sad that she was killed at age 25 by a werepanther in the Year of the Prince? At least they caught and executed the werepanther and his thief friend.)
Lol. Too true. Good thing Bane never had a 'son' and Mystra wasn't killed again inexplicably by a blow to the head. That would have been silly. |
| see |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 02:14:49
I've never had a problem with Mystra.
(Now, about Ariel Manx of Deepingdale? Isn't so sad that she was killed at age 25 by a werepanther in the Year of the Prince? At least they caught and executed the werepanther and his thief friend.) |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 01:45:37
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves!
I agree--I've never had a problem with Mystra, and I was fine with Shar when she literally was kept "in the darkness."
Agreed! I LOVED Shar as a goddess when I first came to play in the Forgotten Realms. I always thought she made a wonderful evil god...but then 3rd Edition came along and the Shades came...I so disliked the new direction for her that the very character I was playing began to revile her...
So old Shar gets five stars...new Shar needs a good replacement; so I did replace her in the game I was DMing.
More on topic, I do like the idea of a campaign to bring Mystra back. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 01:45:23
Seriously? When was the last novel that Mystra was a major character? Trial of Cyric (1998)? And Elminster is pretty much only mentioned in Ed's books nowadays. So how is this 'overexposure'?
Ah, don't mind me. I'm just in a ranty mood... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 01:27:09
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves!
I agree--I've never had a problem with Mystra, and I was fine with Shar when she literally was kept "in the darkness." |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 00:09:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, it's not as much the constant focus, as it is the way people react to that focus. I've a tendency to avoid things that get lots of hype, and hearing -- ad nauseum -- about how cool or uberpowerful a character is makes me want to avoid them. It's even worse when I am less than enthusiastic about that character myself.
Aye.
Though, it should be noted that such tendencies sometimes don't properly reflect an issue with the character itself. It's due more to the uncharacteristic portrayals generated by particular decisions from WotC.
From my own experience, I still love some of the now current "hyped up" aspects of the Realms, but I love them as they were, and not what they are now. Which is, sometimes, the unfortunate result of actions taken by WotC to continue popularising these aspects for sales purposes. The end result is an aspect I really don't particularly care for because it deviates too much from what it once was.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 23:52:24
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Granted, the spotlight on a particular god or character can eventually ensure that readers slowly become tired of such focus. But that shouldn't ultimately result in you choosing to dislike that god or character as a result. Rather, your dislike should be directed toward those who would assume that such focus needs to be maintained at the expense of almost everything else.
Well, it's not as much the constant focus, as it is the way people react to that focus. I've a tendency to avoid things that get lots of hype, and hearing -- ad nauseum -- about how cool or uberpowerful a character is makes me want to avoid them. It's even worse when I am less than enthusiastic about that character myself.
I wind up associating the negative emotions generated by the hype with the character -- and even if I wouldn't otherwise dislike them, this generally results in me regarding the character with mild distaste.
It's not full-on dislike, but it's a lot closer to that than it is to liking the character. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 23:33:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves!
Well, I agree with you, but at the same time, I can say that having the spotlight constantly shining in one spot can make you get sick of that spot. It didn't happen to me with Mystra, but it is happening to me with Shar, and it's happened with at least a couple of other popular characters.
While I'm inclined to agree, partly, with this, I think Faraer's point has more to do with the decisions made by designers focusing on specific elements of the setting that's the problem.
Granted, the spotlight on a particular god or character can eventually ensure that readers slowly become tired of such focus. But that shouldn't ultimately result in you choosing to dislike that god or character as a result. Rather, your dislike should be directed toward those who would assume that such focus needs to be maintained at the expense of almost everything else.
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| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 21:04:12
I think that Realmslore needs to make mention of the fact that Mystra is the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher of Faerun - no one stays in the post for long. :D |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 20:04:01
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves!
-Not necessarily, no. I dislike Mystra a great deal because of what older, Ed material says she is and what she is capable of, not new, different author/designer material. |
| Brix |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:59:53
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Brix
Honestly. That's the first thing I heard, after 15 years of playing FR. Because Mystra is such an integral part of the FR, these people cannot be FR fans then imo. I only can imagine that this is a small number of boisterous people. But that maybe another thread...
-You don't have to like Mystra to be a Forgotten Realms fan. I am a Forgotten Realms fan, and have been since before the debut of 4e, and I abhor Mystra as much as some people abhor Shar.
agreed. That's a good common ground.
I just wonder what is left of the Realms unique flair, when you take away Mystra, and everything that is connectd to her like the Weave, Seven Sister, Chosen, etc.
but I start to rant.
The idea of the thread was to make the best of the Shattered Realms.
I think for old school Realms fans this might be a cool campaign idea.
My idea is to throw the unsuspecting PC's into a time travel portal. Then they arrive 100 years later and find that the Realms have changed and Mystra is dead. They must find people who still believe in the goddess of magic (mostly Binders now) and revive the Mystra.
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| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:56:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
In my game I had the Augathra personality state "ware the Year of the Daughter Slain for your faith is no more" to the cleric of Mystra before the Sharn went dormant. In the Book of the Black 1385 is listed as the year of the Daughter Slain, so the PC's figured something else was up besides the Nether Scrolls. That was the tie in.
In a nutshell the rest of the adventure involved the characters in a modified Dead Gods Adventure and ended with Azuth slain by Cyric, Cyric slain by Mystra, Elminster ascending to be the Patron of Mages, Asmodeus stealing enough of Cyrics essence to become a demipower, Halaster becoming one of Mystra's Chosen to replace Elminster and the party ending up at 25th level.
Uh... 1385 on the Black Chronology was the Year of the Revelation.
I think he rewrote that entry to coincide with his tie-in. I like that Year-name as well for my story idea. Although I don't think I'd raise Elminster. He's too much an agent of the Realms and wouldn't be able to stop 'meddling'. Now, Khelben would make a nice replacement for Azuth... |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:55:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
In my game I had the Augathra personality state "ware the Year of the Daughter Slain for your faith is no more" to the cleric of Mystra before the Sharn went dormant. In the Book of the Black 1385 is listed as the year of the Daughter Slain, so the PC's figured something else was up besides the Nether Scrolls. That was the tie in.
In a nutshell the rest of the adventure involved the characters in a modified Dead Gods Adventure and ended with Azuth slain by Cyric, Cyric slain by Mystra, Elminster ascending to be the Patron of Mages, Asmodeus stealing enough of Cyrics essence to become a demipower, Halaster becoming one of Mystra's Chosen to replace Elminster and the party ending up at 25th level.
Uh... 1385 on the Black Chronology was the Year of the Revelation.
Sorry Wooly, I should have said in "my campaign" 1385 was listed as the Year of the Daughter Slain. I'm one of those DM's who has no problem changing things to fit my campaign, although I try to keep things as cannon as possible. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:50:05
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves!
Well, I agree with you, but at the same time, I can say that having the spotlight constantly shining in one spot can make you get sick of that spot. It didn't happen to me with Mystra, but it is happening to me with Shar, and it's happened with at least a couple of other popular characters.
When something is overly prominent, it can, in many ways, overshadow everything around it, and lead to a lot of false impressions. We've seen negative false impressions happen on Mystra, but seeing constant positive false impressions can be so annoying as to make one sick of hearing about it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:46:32
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
In my game I had the Augathra personality state "ware the Year of the Daughter Slain for your faith is no more" to the cleric of Mystra before the Sharn went dormant. In the Book of the Black 1385 is listed as the year of the Daughter Slain, so the PC's figured something else was up besides the Nether Scrolls. That was the tie in.
In a nutshell the rest of the adventure involved the characters in a modified Dead Gods Adventure and ended with Azuth slain by Cyric, Cyric slain by Mystra, Elminster ascending to be the Patron of Mages, Asmodeus stealing enough of Cyrics essence to become a demipower, Halaster becoming one of Mystra's Chosen to replace Elminster and the party ending up at 25th level.
Uh... 1385 on the Black Chronology was the Year of the Revelation. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:43:36
Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves! |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:38:06
quote:
Originally posted by Brix
Honestly. That's the first thing I heard, after 15 years of playing FR. Because Mystra is such an integral part of the FR, these people cannot be FR fans then imo. I only can imagine that this is a small number of boisterous people. But that maybe another thread...
-You don't have to like Mystra to be a Forgotten Realms fan. I am a Forgotten Realms fan, and have been since before the debut of 4e, and I abhor Mystra as much as some people abhor Shar. I'm not specifically enthused about the way that Mystra was eliminated- or that she was eliminated all together, in lieu of being less exposed- but I find no fault that the proverbial spotlight on Mystra was dimmed a bit- again, snuffing it out completely, I don't think, was the best move, but... |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:17:42
In my game I had the Augathra personality state "ware the Year of the Daughter Slain for your faith is no more" to the cleric of Mystra before the Sharn went dormant. In the Book of the Black 1385 is listed as the year of the Daughter Slain, so the PC's figured something else was up besides the Nether Scrolls. That was the tie in.
In a nutshell the rest of the adventure involved the characters in a modified Dead Gods Adventure and ended with Azuth slain by Cyric, Cyric slain by Mystra, Elminster ascending to be the Patron of Mages, Asmodeus stealing enough of Cyrics essence to become a demipower, Halaster becoming one of Mystra's Chosen to replace Elminster and the party ending up at 25th level. |
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