| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 13:07:09
Good morning fellow scibes!
How often do you use plot twist in your quests? I always do, always. There is always some element that the PC never saw coming. It goes from the bid-bad-guy-you-are-suppose-to-kill is in fact an Harper and you learn that the REAL enemy is the old woman who gave you the “quest” (who is in fact a succubus), or a PC learns that the man he thought was his father is in fact a dragon who promised your now-dead-father to take care of you. Anything, always, I surprise my players, and I take great fun in that.
Let’s call that the “OH MY GOD factor”.
My fun as a DM is the OMG factor, to see their jaw drop what they learn the shocking (and sometimes painful) truth. And my players love it too.
But yesterday, I came to a shocking revelation myself. My players now always EXPECT something to happen. If everything goes alright, they won’t put down the sword until that twist is revealed. I tried to always be unpredictable, and I ironically became predictable in doing so. (Sweet irony)
Of course, those twists, even though they saw it coming in a way, still have some amount of OMG factor. But I fear that with time, the effect will be lessened. So, my question is: Do you think that twists are something that you should not abuse? I know you will probably think “Hey, if it works for you, keep it up” And you are right. I just want to know how YOU usually run a quest, and on how much you use twists.
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| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 07:23:53
I know, right? I mean how can somebody that looks like that fool the folk of the dale for 20 odd years?!? |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 12:13:28
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Pretty easy to pull off. Just don't show them the picture of him in the book.
I almost fell off my chair. You made my day, thanks  . |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 03:59:35
Of course, sometimes it's harder to sell some things.
Like in Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, the group is approached by Weregund (Zhentish spy that has been living in the dale for decades) to be a part of the Free Shadowdale alliance. Pretty easy to pull off. Just don't show them the picture of him in the book. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 22:51:41
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have the same problem. 
I see it on TV, too. The only time I'm surprised anymore is when it turns out to be the guy everyone thought it was (that happens, sometimes).
So I learn from that, and every once in a while I make the most obvious thing happen, because that in-itself becomes the new twist. 
Not everything need-be over-complicated and layered in machivellian intrigues and clandestine sub-plots. Sometimes an Orc is just an Orc.
Well...the orc chief could be a werewolf too...  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 20:15:54
I have the same problem.
I see it on TV, too. The only time I'm surprised anymore is when it turns out to be the guy everyone thought it was (that happens, sometimes).
So I learn from that, and every once in a while I make the most obvious thing happen, because that in-itself becomes the new twist.
Not everything need-be over-complicated and layered in machivellian intrigues and clandestine sub-plots. Sometimes an Orc is just an Orc. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 17:44:01
/bow
Thank you very much for your posts. It's good to analyse a situation with varied opinions and from different points of view. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 17:39:16
To answer the OP, I use plot twists a lot, both in my writing and in my adventures. They vary in size/drama, though--however I think I'll catch my audience off-guard. And sometimes I catch people off-guard simply by trooping on the straight and narrow. It's a balance.
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
But as I said above, I don't stick to a patern to surprise my PC. I just think that a good story, in most case, must have his share of mystery and unexpected events.
[snip]
I just don't wanna fall into, get from point A to point B, kill stuff in the way, get a reward at the end, next! It's all about telling a good story, at least trying to (I think I manage to do a good job so far ).
Yep--as I thought: born storyteller. 
Cheers |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 16:57:39
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
So, my question is: Do you think that twists are something that you should not abuse?
I think I asked my question poorly. Of course, nothing is good when abused. What I meant was: What is the importance of the OMG factor in your campaign? Most people I played with over the years didn't like to be DM because DM are never surprised, at least very rarely. Players are all the time. But to me, to see the amount of surprise generated by my story very satisfying, and I love Dming because of that.
Surprise is just one of many tools available to a DM. And as such, it's something that can be abused... Just about anything can be abused, so it's important to mix things up from time to time.
Me, if I was DM'ing, I'd only toss out the occasional plot twist. Most would be minor, the kind of thing that elicits a "Huh, didn't see that coming." instead of a "Holy crapstains, I never would have thought of that!" And I'd leave a good span of time between those twists, too. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 16:21:29
I have a couple of plot twists myself in the works for my campaigns, but I won't say what in case my players lurk here. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 16:18:13
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
So, my question is: Do you think that twists are something that you should not abuse?
I think I asked my question poorly. Of course, nothing is good when abused. What I meant was: What is the importance of the OMG factor in your campaign? Most people I played with over the years didn't like to be DM because DM are never surprised, at least very rarely. Players are all the time. But to me, to see the amount of surprise generated by my story very satisfying, and I love Dming because of that. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 16:01:33
-When you do do things like that, keep in mind that you don't want to overdo it. In my own game, I did something like that twice over the course of a few weeks. Now, one of my players is suspicious of everyone and everything (It doesn't help that he is extremely paranoid in real life, but...). This is annoying two-fold. Firstly, it causes some problems with PC/NPC relations, with this character being suspicious of everyone. Secondly, it causes me some annoyance, as there have been times where I didn't get to fully set up certain NPCs, because the player is suspicious, and gets anything more than a hint that they might not be what they seem. To give an example, one NPC who had stolen an item from someone that he wasn't letting on to, this player lit a Candle of Truth and interrogated, causing me a few problems storywise. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 15:57:12
This may be relevant:
http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/gamespyarchive/index.php?date=2007-10-03 |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 15:57:00
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
In your game, you might consider having the PCs' longtime foes take note of their expectation/familiarity with twists and plan accordingly: for instance, make it look like the innocent maiden pleading for their aid is really a horrible monster, so that they kill her, thus expediting the villains' ritual. Undermine the goodly mayor by planting false evidence (even very, very subtle, along the lines of a coming twist) that he is corrupt or controlled by demons. Etc., etc.
A twist to the twist huh? Haha, I love it.
But as I said above, I don't stick to a patern to surprise my PC. I just think that a good story, in most case, must have his share of mystery and unexpected events.
Example: The PCs get paid to escort a ship from Luskan to Waterdeep, thinking the cargo is simple marchandise. Easy and simple task, especially for these mid/high level characters. But then, after pushing back their third pirate attack, they start to guess they are escorting more than spice and wine. They know something is going on, they don't know what, the mystery and suspense takes his effect. Now it doesn't even matter if that cargo ends up being a silver sword, a nether scroll or the eye of vecna (well, I guess in those case, it WOULD matter, you get my point).
I just don't wanna fall into, get from point A to point B, kill stuff in the way, get a reward at the end, next! It's all about telling a good story, at least trying to (I think I manage to do a good job so far ). |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 15:36:31
That's actually very much a *writing* dilemma as well (which is not surprising, since DMing is in many ways like writing).
If you use the dramatic twist technique everytime in your work, people start to expect it and it lessens the impact. It can actually become a running joke within the work itself, such as in Horror movies like Scream and the like. Horror as a genre makes major use of the "twist"--it's part of the standard formula.
IMO, I don't think the twist is part of fantasy's formula, but it can be done--effectively or ineffectively. There's often a *fantastic mystery* at the heart of a fantasy work, but whether its revelation counts as a twist or not varies.
If your audience becomes used to twists, you can still play with them--you just have to plan a bit more.
In your game, you might consider having the PCs' longtime foes take note of their expectation/familiarity with twists and plan accordingly: for instance, make it look like the innocent maiden pleading for their aid is really a horrible monster, so that they kill her, thus expediting the villains' ritual. Undermine the goodly mayor by planting false evidence (even very, very subtle, along the lines of a coming twist) that he is corrupt or controlled by demons. Etc., etc.
Cheers |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 13:54:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's like seeing M. Night Shyamalan flick. When all he had done was The Sixth Sense, people were blown away by the plot twist. By the time The Village came out, people were used to his twists, tried to figure them out beforehand, and sometimes succeeded, which meant they didn't enjoy the movie as much because it didn't surprise them.
That is so true, I do that all the time. God, I wish my players don't think the same of me as I do of M. Shyamalan! |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 13:51:21
quote:
Originally posted by frapast1981
From a DM point of view, don't use everytime the plot twists. For example the Harper is really an Harper, the old woman is really an old woman. And if they try to save the girl from the dragon, there is really a girl and a menacing dragon.
Hi Frapast
Of course, the good guy doesn't always turns out to be the bad guy and all. This is one kind of twist that I used. If I always did the same thing, I would be FAR too much predictable. There is always "something", anything. It doesn't always make fools out of the PC, they just didn't see it coming. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 13:45:48
Plot twists are more effective when the players don't see them coming. When you know one is coming, you try to figure out what it is, and that not only pulls you out of the story, it means you may figure it out beforehand, ruining the impact.
It's like seeing M. Night Shyamalan flick. When all he had done was The Sixth Sense, people were blown away by the plot twist. By the time The Village came out, people were used to his twists, tried to figure them out beforehand, and sometimes succeeded, which meant they didn't enjoy the movie as much because it didn't surprise them. |
| frapast1981 |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 13:36:33
Hi Kilvan
as you already said, trying to be unpredictable you became "predictable". But from a PG point of view is good that you don't trust anything. Or, to better expouse what I'm thinking, if you are a succesful adventurer, you should always be ready for the unexepected.
From a DM point of view, don't use everytime the plot twists. For example the Harper is really an Harper, the old woman is really an old woman. And if they try to save the girl from the dragon, there is really a girl and a menacing dragon.
However I agree with you that plot twists are an important part of the fun that you can have adventuring. I usually don't use too much convoluted plots (maybe a little twist here and there). But I usually make something happens out of stage and that is something that the player don't expect (they don't have enough information or are far away when those things happen) but is still enough credible.
Rocco
EDIT: One problem that I often encounter with players is this one: they think that the world is centered around them. That's false! My story is centered around you but Faerun existed before you and probably after you're gone to the Fugue Plain (that depends on the player's behaviour). So twist in the plot remind them that they aren't the only smart people on Faerun |
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